On a ZF-6 trans-plant for my 84, the VSS signal needed to be reversed so had to splice a VSS plug that worked with the VSS sensor in the ZF.
The back-up light harness connector worked fine.

Your synchros are worn out, and probably the gear itself. I did the same exact thing to my 4+3. You can remove the side cover and inspect to be sure, but you need to know what you're looking at first.

It's not cost effective to rebuild. Parts alone will cost more than a replacement used unit.

I have an extra 4+3 (4-speed section) if you're interested. This is not the one I screwed up.

TKO ~ $3000, new kit
ZF6 ~ $1600 (used trans)
T56 ~ $unknown

You have a "large gear" 2-pulse (pre-91) gear-driven VSS with a 42 tooth green driven gear. Internal gear is a 17 tooth, red.

You want to maintain the same 42/17 ratio, with whichever speedo sensor you end up with.

How do you correct the speedo on the Camaro? Different magnetic pickup? Different reluctor in the trans? Program the ECM?

You cannot reprogram it on the vette, at least not the 84-90s, because it sends the signal to the dashboard directly, then to the ECM.

:skep:

The VSSs are completely interchangeable and the plugs are the same pre-91. You only need to choose between a large gear or small gear VSS depending on your ring/pinion ratio. Even then, you can simply clock the VSS 180*.

As far as I know there is no polarity on the VSS signal, no need to reverse any wiring.

Leave all these disconnected, cut them or tie the out of the way. You don't need them nor will they set any codes.

Remove the TV cable entirely.

The Vette/firebird use the same ECM, and same speed buffer electronics. (the box in the dash), with a VSS out to the ECM.

You don't have to reprogram it since we're working with the same pulses per mile. What we need to do is make sure we get the right VSS for the ECM (1227165 or 1227727) I cannot verify what your 85 or what a crossfire vette is, only the ecm's I have worked with.

A '92-96 is gonna be on 'his own' as well, if it's optical the VSS out of a 91+ fbody may work but I don't know if the pulses per mile are the same, as a '91 fbody, but than again I think this is geared more towards 86-88 cars, right? ZF6 was stock in '89/manual. With that said, we're gonna be dealing with a 1227165 ECM with magnetic VSS which is stock on any 86-90 FIREBIRD. 91-92 will be optical. Camaros were cable/mechanical.

I may have miss-spoke by saying the 84-85 was magnetic, since I have an '87 which came with a '165 ECM I can ONLY vouch for 86-89. But I'm going to 'assume' the 84-85 was magnetic as well. (though I'm running a '730 ecm, but thats another story)

-- Joe

The T56 is still pretty expensive due to not many 4th gens being in the salvage yards, and the fact that you can only use an LT1 version due to changes in the input shaft + bolt pattern. Due to the fact it requires hydraulics, bell housing, flywheel + clutch from the donor car, and that the average price for that mess is around $1500.. Well you see where I'm going.

A company makes a bell housing for the T56 that allows you to use any push clutch up to 11" (hydraulic throwout bearing) but the bell housing is $600 w/ hydraulics (master + tob). If you can score a T56 for $600 it
might be worth it, but doing a quick search on my junkyard locater, the cheapest I see are:

1997
Transmission
Pontiac Firebird Transam 5.7,6SPD,SELL WITH 300 ONLY 68,000 A C0931 $1000 Elite Motors, Inc. USA-MI(Detroit) E-mail 888-354-8366 / 313-945-5400 614
1994
Transmission
Pontiac Firebird PRICE EXCHANGE TRANS ONLY MORRIS $950 American Camaro & Firebird Auto Parts USA-OK(Warr-Acres) E-mail 1-888-833-4582 1496
1994
Transmission
Chevy Camaro 157797 $800 Counselman Automotive Recycling of Mobile USA-AL(Mobile) E-mail 1-877-330-2720/1-251-330-2700 1247
1995
Transmission
Chevy Camaro Z28 6 spd (5.7L) 228,000 A063 $700 Born Again Auto Parts USA-FL(Webster) E-mail 352-793-2356

-- Joe

All the yards around my area wanted 1000-1200 for a good LT1 T56 (trans only) which is why I didn't do a T56 swap. I have seen plenty of cheap T5s there though.

As for the ECM, I couldn't care less what kind of signal it wants. My car is carbed now and the only thing I need to make sure is that the speedo will read the right speed from the VSS. It's probably the same VSS as the 86-89 because I know others have bolted an 86-89 4+3 trans into an 84/85 and it worked fine without changing the VSS. If mine is a magnetic pickup, and it sounds like it is, then any Magnetic pickup from the T5 could presumably be geared to the correct ratio for my speedo and read correctly. I'll be especially interested in that part of the swap.

My TKO 500 cost 2200 bucks - shipped from the factory! included everything I needed - they even threw in a free clutch because they were slow in delivery!

Carl Johansson

Keisler's website listed the "Perfect Fit" kit with the VSS and adapters and everything at $3400 for the TKO 500 and $3700 for the TKO 600. Not sure how you got it for $2200 unless that price was trans only.

Regardless, we're still talking well under $1000 for a T5 conversion with the stronger of the T5's.

The original question was for switching out a 4+3 , thats what I did - you are correct - it was for the trans only. again - what is your time worth? CC is still screwing around trying to get his ZF to his liking - what is it - a year or 18 months later now. I put mine in in less than 2 days - that was it - I am done with it. Like I said - to me the extra cost was more than made up for by no down time and allowing me to spend time on other projects! i get hammered repeatedly by people who have "saved lots of money" by doing their own conversions - and they are right - if you don't count time agrevation maintanance and everything else that goes along with it!

Carl "I'll shut up because I have nothing of substance to help you achieve your goal - I wish you the best of luck with it - i wish I had the time and energy to attempt what you are doing! Hopefully i will see you on the track someday soon!" Johansson

What about all the other stuff needed to do the swap? So far it seems like you spent $2200 on a trans that cost me $50 in a swap meet, and still have to do the same work to put it in... What about the cbeam? shifter location? Tunnel patch? I guess I'm confused. I've seen the parts included in the "kit" that isn't $2200, so how did you deal with all that?

[QUOTE=Carl Johansson;1562315038]

CC is still screwing around trying to get his ZF to his liking - what is it - a year or 18 months later now.
{/quote]

Yep, is ZF - the stock transmission in 89+ vettes. I'm not sure what CC's exact problems are other than 6th gear being useless for his rear end ratio. I know on my friends '91 I didn't like the way it shifted. Could have been a bad trans though. I think they shift "goofy". But thats a personal opinion.


Again, We're talking about kit parts. You had to do all the same things WE have to do. You just paid more for your parts. The TKO is a better tranny, so perhaps that was worth it to you.

Again. You did the same thing we did. Just more expensive. Your argument doesn't work out here. Unless your counting the time to gather the parts from more than one source. Then I guess you have me there.

I appreciate the good words. Again we're not knocking you for choosing the 'direct fit kit', but thats obviously not what you bought so we're a little confused at what exactly you are getting at.

-- Joe

Carl, I'm absolutely not still screwing with the ZF swap now. Your posts are condescending and unnecessary.

Joe, Carl's whole basis here is that I spent awhile gathering parts and information on the swap. It was about 6 months beginning to end with the headaches.

This was partly because people who don't know sh** were telling me what parts I needed...

...and because I got scammed on one of the parts and waited on him rather than buying it twice (I later put the guy in jail for a few days)...

...and because my 3.45 ring/pinion were literally stolen by the gear shop and he gave me the run around. The labor time for me removing/reinstalling the diff (~4 hours) with new gears is something you won't need to do with the TKO swap...

...and because I'm lazy and was in no rush to see how fast I could order and install parts. The vette isn't my only car.



It's always more risky that you'll run into problems when relying on the forum for information, or buying parts off ebay or salvage yards.

So I do my best to save people from the same problems I had, by providing accurate parts information, telling off misinformation regurgitators, and keeping scammers off this site.

The peace of mind you get with the Keisler kit costs money. Nothing's free.

Yup Carl, life's more challenging when you save money by using more ingenuity and elbow grease. Keep in mind that extra money you spent required work on your part to earn it, and didn't provide you with much knowledge to help others with aside from "Life's too short, send money to Keisler". I guess that's a time saver for you thoguh as no one will ask you for help on ZF6 swaps like they ask me.

Wow this thread is a true wealth of information. I've always contemplated a manual tranny swap into my '85 but other things on the list always took priority. With the info in this thread I may start looking for the parts to do a T5 swap. The T5 is sounding like a great choice for my '85. It's just a street car, no racing or competition use. I like to work on the car, don't mind the minor fabbing that the swap will require, and if I take a little time to find deals on the parts they can be bought dirt cheap.

Thanks anesthes, Central, and everyone who contributed to this thread.

BTW - anyone know the weight savings between a 700R4 and a WC T5?

:cheers:

Probably almost 50 lbs. tranny for tranny. But you gotta take into consideration the bell housing / flywheel / clutch.

I can put a T5 in with one hand, holding it over my head. I need a tranny jack for the 700R4. I can move a 700R4 with two people around the shop, where a T5 I can hold under my arms and lock the door with my other hand. :)

-- Joe

Misc
 

Joe, what is best guess for weight of the T-5 with out the bell housing?

Did you get a hold of Pro Street Customs yesterday? It sounds like he will be finishing the c beam adapter this week. With your testing and "OK" the adapter will be released soon.

What are the chance that you could take images for your install? C-beam, transmission tunnel mods, shifter mods too.

I didn't talk to them this week. I've been getting my plow truck ready for winter. Once UPS/Fedex shows up with the cbeam adapter I'll jump back on the vette/t5. Once I get the cbeam adapter it's a matter of spending a night at the shop making sure things work, and noting things down, pictures, etc.

-- Joe

FYI, I spoke with Scott at fort worth clutch. I was trying to understand how a vette could run a 10 3/4 clutch, and a fbody 10 1/2 when the flywheel is the same part #. Apparently the vette pressure plate (10 3/4) is notched for the bolts, but ends up being a weaker pressure plate. He recommended staying with the HD 10.5" pressure plate.

Anyhow, a dual friction 10.5" HD pressure plate, clutch disc, alignment tool, and TOB = $160 shipped. I've used their clutches before with VERY good results. Basicly a centerforce DF w/out weights.

-- Joe

Yup in the mean time i have my 86 out and running on road courses every week - an as an added bonus my 88 gets to run a Bonneville or elmirage every month.
I know exactly what my time is worth - I know exactly how much I get paid per hour - and for me - messing with a tranny swap didn't play out financially - I could use that time a whole lot better working at what I get paid to do. Those hours I put in at work more than make up the difference! If you calculate out hours spent - I saved a whole lot of money by doing a keisler swap - because I got paid for those hours I would have spent working on the tranny swap! I admit for most people that is not the case, but in my case I am able to get consulting gigs that pay significant hourly rates - and it turns out - for whatever reason, people are willing to pay for my expertise! So me getting bogged down in a project that eats up time costs me real money!

Hows your garage coming? If you ever need help from someone who has actually built their own house - from top to bottom - let me know - oh yah - I forgot - you know it all - I don't know what the hell I'm doing - thats why I throw money at a problem!

It seems to me you spend an inordinate amount of time, inginuity, and elbow grease to save a small amount of money - but thats only my opinion. I'd rather solve the problem - finish the project in a timely manner and move on to my next project!

Carl "solved the tranny 2 years ago - built another vette, now I'm working on a porche - hows your tranny issues working out? " Johansson

Guys, if the bickering and insults continue this thread will get locked and we'll lose a valuable resource for those who want to complete this swap.

Carl, you've made your point and this is getting a bit ridiculous. Congrats to you for being a satisfied Keisler customer. We all know they make a good trans and it fits into the C4. That's not what this thread is about. This is about doing something different. If you don't have any input for this thread, besides "why are you wasting valuable time instead of wasting valuable money" feel free to post, otherwise start your own thread for touting the virtues of the Keisler kit.

I thank Joe and the rest of the serious contributors, because I for one enjoy modifying my car and I need a new trans, so this thread combines both of those. I hope ProStreet gets that part out to you ASAP so we can all start buying one. I had talked to them about a T56 swap about a year ago, and it ended up being too expensive to get a donor so I gave up on the idea. BTW, did you ask them about doing a modified shifter to include as part of the kit? I can bend/weld it myself, I was just curious for those without the tools.

Also, how is everyone covering the hole in the tunnel left by removing the 4+3 shifter?

As for clutches, I am running a RAM 10.5" PP and disc after talking with LD85. It's a 3200# PP and an organic disc. Haven't gotten it too far yet, but pedal feel is pretty good and LD85 says it holds real well. I'm glad I can keep my existing RAM clutch, billet/dynamically balanced flywheel, and stock clutch slave.

I noticed Pro-street's website is showing the T-5 C-beam adapter. G-force's T-5 hop up kit makes a WC T-5 able to handle 600hp/500ft.lbs. If the first T-5 craps out I'll be doing that upgrade. IMO it's a crapshoot with T-5's from what I've personally seen. I know the good ones are rated for around 320 ft.lbs, but I've seen near stock 302's blow them apart. On that same note, my good friend has been running a 4cyl T-5 behind a blown 347 stroker for over a year now mostly drag duty on ET streets. I'm not counting on this kind of performance. I'm interested in this because it weighs half of what a T56 weighs, it's a super easy swap, and there are parts available to beef it up drastically if needed. To me it's a win/win situation :cheers:

Good info Nirtofish. One thing I've found from researching thridgen.org is the case of the T5 itself can be a weak link. Apparently they are prone to cracking in certain spots with severe abuse. As you said it's a crap shoot some live happily behind 400+hp engines and some have died a quick death behind 302's/305's. I'm researching the case failure issues further and will post my findings once I feel I've found conclusive data.

I still believe this may be the way to go especially with a stock/mildly modified C4. For a drag car I would look towards a T56, TKO or a ZF.

BTW, for the debates on the price of the Keisler kit (they no longer post a price on their website) the cost for the direct fit kit for a car that already has a 4+3 is well over $3000 shipped to my house (I got a quote from Keisler). I don't know how Carl managed to do the TKO swap for $2200. I found 2 World Class T5s within driving distance for under $300.

KEISLER 5-SPEED - Price quote
 

KEISLER 5-SPEED

550HP/550FT-LB 5-SPEED TRANSMISSION ASSEMBLY

KEISLER CUSTOM BUILT TKO-500 WITH LOW PROFILE INTERNAL OFFSET SHIFTER,


$3,460.00 that includes shipping charges.

Quoted 10/08/2007

You can replace the T-5 Swap many times for the price of the KEISLER 5-SPEED. If you have 550 HP/550FT - you are very lucky, and likely to have the money to invest into this transmission.

For us that have a stock C4's. I can not see spending $3500. The low cost T-5 swap is very exciting possible option for us.

I spent quite a bit of time last night on thirdgen.org. Opinions are all over the map regarding the T5. Some have been drag racing with them behind 350+ hp motors with no issues for a year or more, some say they destroy them behind 305's in short order. Those who have experienced transmission failure do admit that they are not easy on them, and will often power shift, side step the clutch on launch, etc.

From all the research I've found it appears the killer of these transmissions is power shifting (shifting without the clutch) particularly into third gear and side stepping the clutch (revving up the engine and releasing the clutch suddenly as in a drag race) which can crack the case of the transmission. Those who avoid these actions seem to have very good luck with the transmissions even behind modified 350s.

I started working on a writeup. I have to verify all the measurements, and make some corrections but it's a rough draft.

will add pictures soon.

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f-car-t5/

-- Joe

Again anesthes thanks again for this great post and spearheading the R&D on this swap :thumbs: :cheers:

Great write up on this swap. Almost feels like I'm cheating getting all the answers like this :lol:

Joe,
Does this mean you've actually completed the swap? Pics would be great, especially the shifter modifications. How's the driving feel of the T5? Anything else we need to know? I'm gonna start rounding up the pieces and make this another on my list of winter projects...

:iagree: Inquiring minds want to know! I'm going to start rounding up parts as well as soon as I hear Joe has successfully driven the car down the road and given it his stamp of approval.

Ditto. I am going to get myself a T-5 and have the beefy updates done by G-Force and have it standing by for when my 4+3 takes a dump. :thumbs:

No No No. Just trial fitting things, and some experimentation. PLEASE do not follow the write up until I've 100% triple tested everything. It's just a starter, an outline.

Again, don't modify a THING until I say its DONE.

I'll probably get some pictures up this week. I spoke with Tom about the cbeam adapter, he's done but I wanted to make sure he had the exhaust hanger mount in the right spot. He informed me that due to the position of the T5 tailhousing, the cbeam adapter will bolt right in without having to grind/cut/modify ANYTHING. (unlike the T56 swap which requires redrilling of the cbeam). But I need to test fit it all, and take it over the highway to make sure the pinion angle was not altered.

Give me a few more days guys. I wasn't planning on finishing this thing in the fall, but based on interest I'm putting this ahead of my other projects so I will have it complete before the end of october, so I can road test it a few hundred miles prior to winter.

I've got the hurst shifter on my desk right now, and I did some measurements for the writeup. I need to do some in car testing to make sure
I'm having you guys mod it properly. A friend of mine who did a T5 swap did the shifter mod differently, but it makes the angle a little
strange. I'm thinking method #1 is gonna work best.

-- Joe

Take your time, and I for one appreciate it. My 4+3 works perfect right now after I removed the switch from the shifter, fixed the broken wires, and relocated it to the console. I gotta park my car soon before the snow hits and it won't see pavement again til around May anyway. Other things need to be done before the tranny. Heads need valve seals, but might as well put AFR's on it while apart, while intake is off might as well do headers, an LT-1 intake swap and on and on it goes!

Hey what's this? Is this a prototype cbeam adapter?? :)

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f-car-t5/cbeam/

-- Joe

Cool. What happened to clocking the transmission? Did the bellhousing options prevent that? The shifter is really critical IMO. I've seen some swaps where they spent 99% of the time making it work and 1% of the time making the shifter feel good. But that's the part you touch every time you get behind the wheel, about 100 times per day.


Signed,



:lurk:

You can only clock the tranny if you use the F-body bellhousing. Then you'd need a different adapter. Also, the shifter would stick straight up (I think) when the transmission is clocked. By bolting it in at 0 degrees at the front it angles the shifter which makes it easier to put a little bend in it and have it come up in the right spot.

Clocking the t5 with a fbody bell housing would cause a few problems.

The exhaust wouldn't clear
The tailshaft would be where the cbeam is, making it almost
impossible (if not impossible) to make a cbeam adapter.

I talked to a bunch of folks who put T5's in cars that didn't have T5's to begin with. (jags, 2nd gen fbody's, c3's) and T56's in C4's. Everyone modified the shifter a different way, but nobody has reported any problems with the shifter.

I have learned however (after I bought an fbody shifter) that you can use an S10 shifter BASE with custom hurst stick which puts the knob in the right spot. The S10 base is straight up, and hurst makes sticks bent in all kinds of wacky ways.

Some of the T56 guys prefer to make a custom console cover, because they say "The stock location is too far over towards the driver". I dunno...

-- Joe

Yep. I originally thought it would come up over the driver side when I was talking to CC about this, but it comes up in the dead center. If you put a straight stick in a clocked bell housing it comes up in your leg :)

-- Joe

I must have made a mistake in a measurement, because I'm coming up an inch off for the cbeam holes in the adapter. the T5 w/ bell housing measures 31 inches which is what I thought the 700R4 did - but the 700R4 must have been 30 inches.

The driveshaft can be installed, but was VERY VERY tight getting the ujoint to seat in the yoke. I'm probably going to cut an inch off the driveshaft just to be safe.

Anyhow, the cbeam adapter is on it's way back to pro street for final modification and then we're done. I should have it back by the end of next week, for final fitting.

-- Joe

The cbeam is going to prostreet, or the adapter is going to prostreet?

BTW, have you thought about how to disable the reverse-lockout on the ignition switch?

The adapter is on it's way back.

Reverse-lockout on the ignition switch? I'm using an automatic column, so other than disconnecting the cable i'm doing nothing. This is how i've done the swaps fbody's in the past.

Someone might jump up and say "you need to have a button on the ignition so you can't lock it while your driving". My 2007 Aveo doesn't have such a button, however if your really worried you can get manual-lock cylinder with a lever.

-- Joe

I thought disconnecting the cable would permanently lock the key in. I remember reading on Keisler's instructions for their swap (I could be wrong) that you have to lock the cable out. Anyone back me up on this one?

I don't have a button. The only way to turn the key completely off is to put the lever in reverse. That's what prevents you from accidentally locking the wheel. I'm not worried about accidentally locking the wheel. I just want to make sure I can get the ignition key in and out...

I never had a problem. The cable (on an auto) locks you from being able to turn the key all the way back unless it's in park. If you disconnect the cable in the park position, you should be fine.

Now with your setup being a stick, your going to have to disconnect it with the cable in the reverse position.

-- Joe

The only other thing I might have him change if possible, is to move the cbeam bolt spacing closer to the inside of the transmission. If you look at this picture, they are a bit farther out. It still bolts in since the torque arm even when bolted in the rear can swing side to side a few inches, but it almost rubs the transmission tunnel. (though thats probably not a problem, I don't like it)

-- Joe

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f...5/700r4-t5.jpg

I ended up buying a Dana44 driveshaft from vette2vette. Jason charged me $65 shipped, which is a pretty good deal I think. This solves the problem on a 700R4 to T5 swap.

For you folks with 4+3 cars, you have two options.

If you review Joby's site, he had the same inssue I ran into when he did a Dana44 swap. What he did was put the driveshaft in first, then jacked the tranny up a little and bolted the cbeam.

http://joby.se/corvette/mods/2001-0X11_diff/

You can do this, or if you are uncomfortable you can have your driveshaft shortened.

Even if your swapping from a 700R4 to a T5, you can do it Joby's way, but for the price of a D44 driveshaft why not? Doesn't add a whole lot to the cost.

I've also learned a lot more about offset shifters. Apparently you can use a mcleod shifter with a 2" offset rather than modifying a fbody shifter. You can even run a hurst shifter for a mustang T5, with an offset stick (for putting rail-shifted T5s in cars that had top loaders) by redrilling the front two holes just a hair back.

Check out the swap page from time to time for updates:

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f-car-t5/

I'll often do a step 3-4 times until I've found the best way, they document it and take pictures.

-- Joe

Where can I purchase a McLeod offset shifter? Do I have to contact them directly? Or, where would I get a Mustang T5 shifter?

As for the driveshaft, I assume you can use a D44 driveshaft on an originally 4+3 car for this swap the same as you could use it in a car that was originally an auto? If I were to have my driveshaft shortened, how much shorter does it need to be?

As a side note, I am picking up a supposedly good WC T5 from a 90 Firebird later this week for 50 bucks, complete with bellhousing/shifter/etc. :party:


Oh, yeah, is the CBeam adapter back from ProStreet yet? Have they worked out the kinks and moved the holes? I'm ready to purchase one from them as soon as it's comemrcially available...

You can contact mcleod directly. Tell them you have a T5, and need
the 2" offset shifter. The shifter location in the C4 actually is not that uncommon. When researching things I found more folks putting T5's in cars/trucks/jeeps/golf carts than I ever imagined.

The Dana36 driveshaft is 33inches. The Dana44 driveshaft is 32inches.
The reason is because the Dana44 is roughly an inch longer. If you have a Dana36 rear end, you can use the Dana44 driveshaft and the clearance ends up being stock. If you have a Dana44 rear end you won't be able to get the driveshaft in with the cbeam bolted up, you just can't get the ujoint to clear the yoke. You need to lower the transmission, bolt the driveshaft, then jack it up and bolt the cbeam in.
This is a PITA, so if you can get the driveshaft shortened by an inch it will be like OEM fit.


Thats what I paid for my T5. Make damn sure it's out of a V8 car, unless you want have a custom clutch made...

Nah, I think it's getting delivered to him today. He's gonna probably need at least until Friday to make the changes I requested. Hopefully he will get it back to me by Tuesday or so, which should be about the same time I get my Dana44 driveshaft from vette2vette.

-- Joe

The V8 car has the 26 spline input shaft and the V6 has a different one, right? He said it's the 26 spline shaft so I think it has to be the V8 one.

Actually you can run a 11" clutch on any C4 vette flywheel. But of course the 10.75" push type pressure plate won't fit over it. Are there any cheap 11" push type pressure plates?

If your beam holes are off, are you sure your beam is the right one? Remember, the D36 beam is about 1" longer than the D44. The front holes of the beam should be in the same place regardless. The length difference only compensates for the length of the differential casing.

I forgot about checking that driveshaft yoke, I'll look at it when I get home. It's not on the car but I have one in my garage and I'm sure it's got a wear mark on it from the output seal. It sounds like you're saying plus or minus an inch on the driveshaft length is no big deal, but I'm not so sure. The spines inside the yoke don't go the full length of the yoke ID so you're at risk of not having enough spline engagement.

The pull-time clutch uses the same mounting holes on the 153 tooth flywheel? Thats interesting. I thought you needed a 'special' flywheel for the ZF..

I'm running a D36 w/ d36 beam. so nothing has changed there. The T5 is apparently just an inch longer than the 700R4 was. But it's also why I can get away with using a D44 driveshaft.

If I ever upgrade to a D44, i'll have to shorten the shaft - but after spending $600+ on gears/parts for my D36, if it breaks I'll trade it in for a C5. :)


-- Joe

Yeah, 26 vs like 14 or something like that. It's not the same as the early v8s either, it's a specific hub.

-- Joe

At least shortening the driveshaft is always easier/cheaper than lengthening it. I wonder if there's any junkyard applications that would work.

Yes,there are 3 types of C4 flywheels:
84-85 (2-pc crank seal)
86-88 (1-pc crank seal)
89-96 (Dual Mass)

And 3 types of clutch / pressure plate combos:
84 (10.4")
85-88 (10.75")
89-96 (11" pull type)

Any of the flywheels will work with any of the clutch setups.

I guess I've always missunderstood. I read a lot of hype in the FAQ about using singlemass fbody flywheel. If the zf clutch works fine with the stock 4+3 flywheel why all the hype?? Lack of a sprung hub causing more driveline shock?

-- Joe

I'm running just a straight-up billet steel aftermarket 2 pc. rear main flywheel, a RAM 10.5" organic clutch disc, and a RAM 3200 pound pressure plate. It's all normal sbc stuff and it works fine with the 4+3 and probably the T5 as well.

I didn't think you could use the ZF clutch stuff because of the hydraulic TOB.

It does seem to have an effect compared to my 4+3 with the sprung hub. Although I haven't driven a pull type clutch with the fbody flywheel to compare, so the short travel and higher pressure plate force could be partly to blame. The clutch is a bit more grabby, so it takes a little more finess to engage seemlessly from a standstill. (My car is a bad example, because my throttle body is all screwed up and binds when trying to feather it off idle.)

Basically what it means is if you toss someone your keys they'll probably stall it a few times while getting a feel for it. I haven't noticed any difference while racing.

ZF pull type clutch can only be used with the crappy ZF linkage.

On another note, some of those Fbodys have a hydraulic throwoutbearing/slave. Will any of these bolt up inside our bellhousing? I know the ZF bell is a little narrower than the 4+3 bell.

Joe, the 4+3/D44 yoke splines stop 1/2" before the front of the yoke. It looks like the output seal was riding almost exactly 1.25" in front of the balancer.

Also the first 1" of the yoke OD ahead of the balancer is pretty rough/rusty. I'm not sure if that means GM didn't polish that part of it, or just that it was shiny there and just corroded from being exposed to the elements for 20+ years.

Did you have to do any machine work to the flywheel? The FAQ suggests using a LT1 style flywheel and milling it .090" (thats a lot!).

For what it's worth, on my formula from like 5 years ago, I had a ram 6 padal race clutch, but I had them put a sprung hub in it for street use. That was dumb because any time you slipped the clutch, and it chattered it would amplify like a slingshot. be like a 16 year old driver.

Good good. I got the D44 driveshaft on the way, so hopefully when I get it together i'll have about the same clearance. I want this to be as 'bolt in' as possible.

I should talk to Tom at Pro Street about stocking shifters or at least shifter sticks for the swap.

-- Joe

The adapter changes should be done by today. I spoke with Tom last night. He's going to move the mounting holes fro the cbeam 3/4" forward, and bring them about 1/2" or more closer to the centerline of the transmission.

-- Joe

As long as the bolts don't interfere with the side of the trans casing. That was a problem to work around on the TKO bracket.

I ordered my D44 driveshaft from vette2vette as well. Pickin up a tranny this weekend. All I need now is the McLeod shifter and the correct speedo gears (and the completed T5 adapter of course).

What rear end gears do you have? I'm confused cuz I thought you had a dana44 rear end already cuz you had a 4+3 tranny?

Err I just realized you have an 84. So you got the Dana36 too. Good for you, no driveshaft shortening problems.

Did you call mcleod about the shifter? I havn't bothered since I'm gona modify the hurst I have but it would be nice to know the price + part number.

I'm also gonna call hurst monday and ask them about offset sticks. It looks as if they might already have one with the 7/8" bolt spacing.

-- Joe

I'll let you know how much the McLeod costs. If the Hurst is cheaper I'll go that route.

I've got a 3.07 ratio D36 which should be a decent combo with the T5 for a spirited street car.

Is there a way to tell from the outside if a T5 is a World Class or not?

Yep.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/at...e-im000870.jpg
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/at...e-im000871.jpg

You need a 9 tooth drive, and 22 tooth driven for your speedo.

-- Joe

Yeah. Eventually the cbeam will hit the shifter mount before the bolts hit the case though. I just want him to bring it in as close to stock location as possible.

-- Joe

Are the c-beams the same for a D44 and D36? If not I assume the bracket is being made for a D36. Great post guys. Thank you for your hard work...

I'm almost positive the CBeams are the same at each end for a D44 and D36. The only difference is the length. The T5 adapter should work on either CBeam.

Got my T5 and a surprise...

The dude dropped it off at my house cause he was in the area for other reasons. It's super clean, shifts nice, and the input shaft feels good. Also, lo and behold, the shifter appears to be a Hurst already. There's no knob on it, but the base plate is gold and the boot is round instead of covering the whole base. Any other way to tell if it's a Hurst? If it is, I suppose I'll be modifying a Hurst stick and not calling McLeod after all.

Driveshaft is on the way from vette2vette (should be here Wednesday). Now all I need is the adapter. How's it comin', anyway? I'm gonna call ProStreet later this week and let 'em know I definitely want one.

Could be a B&M or a hurst.

Hurst looks like this:

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f...5/hurst-t5.jpg

I'm waiting on the modified cbeam adapter as well. Once it gets here i'll jump back on the vette. Im kinda hoping it gets here soon because I want to get the shifter sorted out.

Hurst might have a stick that works already. They have a few sticks that go 2" over. Just need to call them.

-- Joe

This stick should work I think. It's hurst # 538-8571

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f...hurst-538-8571

If your shifter has a removable stick with the 7/8" bolt spacing (3/8" bolts) you can probably use this stick. An fbody shifter will need
to be taken apart, and have the internal shaft bent in a press, or heated and bent. If you use a mustang shifter you will not have to
do this, but you will have to re-drill the front two holes.

If you find an S10 hurst shifter you won't have to modify the base at all.

Obviously the cheapest and easiest route, is to pick up a T5 mustang base in the junkyard since they have the same bolt spacing for the stick (they're hurst OEM), and just buy the stick.

-- Joe

Cool thread, I just bought an 86 with a 4+3, the OD is shot. I'm considering this swap since the WC T-5 is an order of magnitude cheaper than a Richmond. Is there any cutting of the tunnel required to make the T-5 fit? Nice work so far!

There's a little cutting and patching of the tunnel, but it's the same as making the Richmond or the TKO fit. Earlier in this thread there is a picture of the tunnel mods necessary. A little aluminum and self-tapping screws and you're in business.

Ok, I found the picture in anesthes' writeup. The 4+3 has a box for the shift linkages, I'd imagine this will need to be cut off.

Where's the swap stand at this point? Is the adapter done? Any new stuff to add?

Adapter has been redone. The cbeam mount has been moved 3/4" forward, and 1 1/13" inward. It will require some slight grinding to the cbeam - but its better to keep the OEM like alignment.

It was reshipped to me, when it shows up I'll put it back together and take some more pix, and finish the writeup.

-- Joe

[QUOTE=anesthes;1562630391]This stick should work I think. It's hurst # 538-8571

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f...hurst-538-8571/QUOTE]

Do you have to offset it rearward at all? Also I think the TKO shifter had more side offset than that.

Are you sure about that? I would diagnose the electrical circuits first before going to the work and expense of converting.

Most of the 4+3s "fail" due to electrical problems, which are very cheap to fix. Does your dash indicator light ever come on when you hit the overdrive switch (when the car is warmed up and on the highway). ?

The overdrive indicator seems to work OK. When I bought the car it was spewing trans fluid out of the vent hole, the vent tube fell out and was melted by the exhaust. I replaced the tube (had to pull the trans to do this) thinking everything would be cured, ran the car on jacks and it continued spewing but it did go into overdrive. It stopped spewing when the fluid was down a 1/2 inch or so. When I test drove it the indicator came on and the car only actually went into overdrive when decelerating or coasting...to me it seems like it has a blown seal that allows fluid to bypass the hydraulic clutch and exit the vent.

Additionally there was a lot of metallic sludge in the manual portion, and third gear is noisy, the car has 97000 but I think it's had a hard life :) So I'm probably looking at full trans rebuild or replacement. I admit I don't really like the thought of cutting up the tunnel, but it seems you need to do this for all the other swaps too.

Has the 4-speed fluid level been dropping? Maybe that's getting sucked into the overdrive. This will prematurely wear the 4-speed too and overfill the overdrive.

You really don't want to rebuild it, it's not cost effective at all. Your cheapest option is buying a used 4+3. 2nd cheapest is the ZF6 swap (~$1600), but that will change if this T5 swap pans out.

I have a used 4-speed unit for sale if you end up needing that.

Bump to keep this thread on my "recent topic" list. Great info here thanks to all contributors :thumbs: :cheers:

The new Cbeam adapter came in today. I'll try to get the tranny in tomorrow if I have time.

:party: :party: :party:

BTW, you got a paypal...

Just set your profile to subscribe to threads by default (without email). Then click on "User CP" and it'll show you every thread you've posted in.

Looks good so far.

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f...ounted1-sm.jpg
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f...ounted2-sm.jpg
http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f...ounted3-sm.jpg

Why are the holes for the CBeam slotted? I'd think that would tend to make the drivetrain more likely to flex or misalign. Are they just slotted until they figure out the final placement, or is that it?

They are slotted so it works on both 4+3 and 700R4 Cbeams as the bolt spacing is different on each. (thank GM).

What I will probably do just to be safe, is run two 1/2" spacer stock in there, which once I get the bolts semi-torqued I'll weld in place then final torque. But I don't think thats required, just a "might as well"..

-- Joe

Everything fits fine with the bracket. Tranny is in. I'll probably get around to doing the shifter mods this weekend, after I bleed the brakes on my plow truck.

Might as well order your adapters, guys who need them.

-- Joe

I cracked the shifter today trying to bend it over in the press, so I decided it would be better to just cut it, and weld it up so it puts the top in a different spot for the stick. Then I can just re-use the fbody shifter stick.

After doing some measuring, I found that the shifter stick needs to go
about 3" to the left, and about 2.5" back. As you can see in this picture, the shifter mounting boss is not only centered, but way farther forward than the ZF or the 4+3 shifter would be.

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f-car-t5/top-sm.jpg

This can be solved with some 3/8x1" bar stock. Cut the base of the shifter off right below the holes, weld a 2.75" long peice to it, then weld
a 1.5" long peice to the end of that, then weld the peice of the base you cut off to it.


-- Joe

Can't the McLeod Slik Stix be moved that far back and left?

This is going to result in the shifter rising towards 5th gear and sinking towards 2nd gear. I suggest you leave the shifter sufficiently long so this effect isn't as noticeable.

I'll give it whirl. I built the first revision but I goofed a measurement. I'll try it again tomorrow.

-- Joe

Yep, but I'm not buying one. the metal stock cost me $4.88 at home depot, and have enough to make about 8 mods before I need more :)

-- Joe

I am interested in doing this swap are all the input and output splines the same. is cutting the driveshaft down the only other thing i have to do beside fab up a shifter, and buying the adapter . thanks.

Did you read the link to the swap how-to ?

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/f-car-t5/

Splines are same. Use a D44 driveshaft if you have a D36 rear. Cut and modify the shifter. Buy the bracket. Bolt and go.

-- Joe

ya i already have the d44 rear because mine was a 4+3 right? i also have talked to tom of prostreet and plan on buying the cbeam adapter in the next few days. ill just have to get my driveshaft cut down a inch or so right. thanks

I keep forgetting about '84.. The D44 came out in '85.. You just need a D44 driveshaft. call vette2vette.


After that and once you heve the cbeam adapter, just find either an S10 or a mustang hurst shifter, and do some cut and weld. I'll post some pix of my modified shifter soon.

-- Joe