VR1 Racing Oil isn't the oil we thought it was
I picked up a Valvoline product manual over the weekend. It clarified some questions about their Racing oil products. It turns out that VR1 Racing Oil is just ordinary new car street oil that says Racing Oil on the label. I think most of us thought it was extra good stuff because of those words, and because it said it contains ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate), which we commonly just call zinc. That ended up being just marketing hype, since even the newer street oils still contain some zinc, just at much lower levels than they used too. Of course, that reduction was done for emissions reasons to prevent wrecking the cats on street cars, certainly not to help the engines. As we know, zinc is considered one of the main additives that gives extra protection against engine wear. Many consider the fact that zinc has been nearly removed from newer street oils to be the primary cause for the rash of flat tappet motor wiped lobes. It may also be a contributing factor to solid roller lifter failures as well. So, of course, racers and gearheads typically like to stay away from street oil if they don’t run cat equipped cars. The thing is, VR1 is API certified as SM rated (check the bottle and you’ll see), which is the latest street oil rating for current new cars, as well as older ones so they claim. But don’t tell that to the guys with wiped lobes. In order to meet that latest strict API rating, the zinc level is at its lowest level yet……..so much for Valvoline’s feeble claim of “contains ZDDP”. And so much for VR1 being actual “Racing Oil”. I think most of us expect true racing oil to have much larger amounts of zinc than even the older “good” street oil. On top of that, I recently came across a Valvoline link on the web, where they talked about VR1 being a synthetic blend, though they don’t even say that on the bottle. So………. they don’t make it widely known that it is a synthetic blend, yet they do imply it has a lot of zinc, which is doesn’t. I know many people are quite happy using VR1, but the good it is doing for them apparently comes mostly from it being partial synthetic, not from any help from zinc. Jeg’s lists this oil for $5.00 per qt. I was planning to use it in the 540 I’m building, but now I wouldn’t even consider it.
For those of us who actually want truly elevated levels of zinc in our oil, we have to look no further than Valvoline’s two other Race Oils. They have conventional (petroleum) Racing Oil and Synthetic Racing Oil, both of which truly have elevated levels of zinc. Since they do, they say clearly on the bottles, “Not Street Legal”, which is because they will actually ruin the cats on cat equipped cars. And they don’t carry new street oil API ratings. Jeg’s lists the conventional at $7.00 per qt and the synthetic at $9.00 per qt. Just when we thought it was safe to stop thinking about oil……………… |
Yep.....I looked through some Valvoline catalogs at the oil distributor warehouse I was at when I was picking up some parts cleaning solvent. They clearly listed the race oils separate from the VR-1. I even had them bring a case out to read the label. They didn't have any real race stuff in stock..but could get it easily. I've used the VR-1 off and on over the years...and it's decent stuff...but as you said...not what we all like to think it was. Best clue should have been that it was commonly available pretty cheap at local parts stores. Really doesn't cost much more than any other oil around my house.
Even the old Kendall race oil that supposedly has been re-marketed as Bradd Penn isn't what the old *green spinach* was..but it looks better than most. I hope we don't have to start running Joe Gibbs oil to get the good stuff...it's going to be expensive. Starting to make EOS look more attractive these days you know? JIM |
Interesting.
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Originally Posted by 540 RAT
(Post 1559327452)
I picked up a Valvoline product manual over the weekend. It clarified some questions about their Racing oil products. It turns out that VR1 Racing Oil is just ordinary new car street oil that says Racing Oil on the label. I think most of us thought it was extra good stuff because of those words, and because it said it contains ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate), which we commonly just call zinc. That ended up being just marketing hype, since even the newer street oils still contain some zinc, just at much lower levels than they used too. Of course, that reduction was done for emissions reasons to prevent wrecking the cats on street cars, certainly not to help the engines. As we know, zinc is considered one of the main additives that gives extra protection against engine wear. Many consider the fact that zinc has been nearly removed from newer street oils to be the primary cause for the rash of flat tappet motor wiped lobes. It may also be a contributing factor to solid roller lifter failures as well. So, of course, racers and gearheads typically like to stay away from street oil if they don’t run cat equipped cars. The thing is, VR1 is API certified as SM rated (check the bottle and you’ll see), which is the latest street oil rating for current new cars, as well as older ones so they claim. But don’t tell that to the guys with wiped lobes. In order to meet that latest strict API rating, the zinc level is at its lowest level yet……..so much for Valvoline’s feeble claim of “contains ZDDP”. And so much for VR1 being actual “Racing Oil”. I think most of us expect true racing oil to have much larger amounts of zinc than even the older “good” street oil. On top of that, I recently came across a Valvoline link on the web, where they talked about VR1 being a synthetic blend, though they don’t even say that on the bottle. So………. they don’t make it widely known that it is a synthetic blend, yet they do imply it has a lot of zinc, which is doesn’t. I know many people are quite happy using VR1, but the good it is doing for them apparently comes mostly from it being partial synthetic, not from any help from zinc. Jeg’s lists this oil for $5.00 per qt. I was planning to use it in the 540 I’m building, but now I wouldn’t even consider it.
For those of us who actually want truly elevated levels of zinc in our oil, we have to look no further than Valvoline’s two other Race Oils. They have conventional (petroleum) Racing Oil and Synthetic Racing Oil, both of which truly have elevated levels of zinc. Since they do, they say clearly on the bottles, “Not Street Legal”, which is because they will actually ruin the cats on cat equipped cars. And they don’t carry new street oil API ratings. Jeg’s lists the conventional at $7.00 per qt and the synthetic at $9.00 per qt. Just when we thought it was safe to stop thinking about oil……………… I do not understand some of the listed specs, BUT, I can read Zn wt% and P wt%. VR-1 has 0.130 Zinc and 0.120 Phosphorus. Valvoline NSL Racing oil has Zn wt% of 0.12 and P wt% of 0.12. "It turns out that VR1 Racing Oil is just ordinary new car street oil that says Racing Oil on the label" How did you come up with this conclusion?? I had been using Valvoline NSL Racing oil because someone on the "INTERNET" said there was a reduced amount of Zn and P in the VR-1, and I was too lazy to check at the source - Valvoline! During this time, I heard that there was a reduced additive package in the NSL Racing oil, but, since I change oil every +/- 1500 street miles, I did not care. My next oil purchase will be Valvoline VR-1, unless someone has documented proof that it contains no/or reduced amounts of Zn and P. I would like to know if the Valvoline Product Manual that 540 RAT picked up, agrees with Valvoline's web site. I would also like to know where he picked up the Valvoline Product Manual. If I am wrong, based upon REAL information, let me know before I buy any VR-1. Internet=wheat +chaff. Go to the source (manufacturers) for any information that is important to you. Don't take BUBBAS word for it! I will apologize if my information is incorrect!!! |
Here's some more interesting reading I came across.
http://www.valvoline-technology.com/...%20Galling.pdf Recently ML67 was speaking with Performance Research about their *Ball roller lifters* and interestingly the one separate big piece of advice they gave was to use the thickest oil you could get to help roller lifter life. They said if you could live with 60wt..go for it!! http://www.thevalvetrain.com/pages/products.html Seems we all need to keep studying....from the Valvoline tests you would believe that *what's new isn't always best*. Who'da thunk it?? JIM |
Originally Posted by glen242
(Post 1559342895)
Did you indeed check the Valvoline web site and look at the Product Information for the VR-1 racing oil and the Valvoline Not Street Legal Racing Oil???
I do not understand some of the listed specs, BUT, I can read Zn wt% and P wt%. VR-1 has 0.130 Zinc and 0.120 Phosphorus. Valvoline NSL Racing oil has Zn wt% of 0.12 and P wt% of 0.12. "It turns out that VR1 Racing Oil is just ordinary new car street oil that says Racing Oil on the label" How did you come up with this conclusion?? I had been using Valvoline NSL Racing oil because someone on the "INTERNET" said there was a reduced amount of Zn and P in the VR-1, and I was too lazy to check at the source - Valvoline! During this time, I heard that there was a reduced additive package in the NSL Racing oil, but, since I change oil every +/- 1500 street miles, I did not care. My next oil purchase will be Valvoline VR-1, unless someone has documented proof that it contains no/or reduced amounts of Zn and P. I would like to know if the Valvoline Product Manual that 540 RAT picked up, agrees with Valvoline's web site. I would also like to know where he picked up the Valvoline Product Manual. If I am wrong, based upon REAL information, let me know before I buy any VR-1. Internet=wheat +chaff. Go to the source (manufacturers) for any information that is important to you. Don't take BUBBAS word for it! I will apologize if my information is incorrect!!! Glen242, fair enough, I'll try to answer your questions. I picked up the Valvoline Product Manual at a big NAPA vendor display at a big car show last weekend. The manual was a Valvoline publishing, simply being handed out by the NAPA guys. NAPA carries Valvoline Racing Oil as well as their normal street oils. The manual had more "text" info than their website, but it did not have specific "test" numbers. I wish it had, since the website info for VR1 appears to be a misprint, and I'll show you why I say that. It's common knowledge that oil companies have had to reduce zinc to meet the later API SL/SM requirements, all in an effort to preserve the cats on modern cars. A change for emissions, not engine longevity. But then, flat tappet motors are a thing of the past, right?.........and modern roller tappet engines don't seem to be bothered by it. That whole deal has been discussed countless times on the various Forums. And there was even a widely read magazine article awhile back about how the new oils with reduced zinc is considered to be one of the primary factors in flat tappet motor lobe wiping. So, let's take a look at Valvoline's own current street oils that meet the latest new car API SM requirements. The info is taken from their website: Conventional petroleum oil…………zinc/phos .083/.076 Synthetic blend oil………………….....zinc/phos .083/.076 Full synthetic oil………………....……zinc/phos .084/.077 You can see their SM rated oils have virtually the same zinc numbers. Now let's take a look at the "Not Street Legal" oils: Conventional (petroleum) Racing Oil….zinc/phos .120/.120 Synthetic Racing Oil………………….........zinc/phos .120/.120 You can easily see the roughly 50% increase in zinc and phos antiwear additives. The text that goes along with these two oils says, "Contains increased amounts of zinc for extra engine protection". And then it goes on to say, "Because Valvoline Racing Oil is optimized for racing conditions, it should not be used in passenger vehicles. Using this oil in a passenger car may damage the catalytic convertor over time". This is just what has been discussed at length, previously. And they are not showing modern API ratings. Now let's take a look at the infamous VR1 "Racing Oil" 10W30 not SM rated and 20W50 SM rated….zinc/phos .130/.120 Hmmmm…….the VR1 shows the most zinc of all, yet is still claiming to be API SM rated, meaning amoung other things, that it won't damage the cats? Not!!! This is not Rocket Science, and you can't have your cake and eat it too. Plus, there is no mention of this oil damaging cats in Valvoline's text or on the bottles, huh??....that makes no sense at all, since they clearly point that out with the other Racing Oil. You can't have it both ways. Let's hope Valvoline just has a misprint on their website, otherwise it would appear to be deliberate misinformation. If anyone would still want to run VR1 with all this suspect info, then by all means do so. I'm sure it is fine street oil, afterall they can't fake the API rating, just don't bet your engine on it being high in zinc, if that's important to you. If anyone has independent VOA data, maybe they can share it with us. Here's a link with two UOA lab tests, where it didn't look all that impressive: http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...e=1#Post810397 |
It sure seems like folks like beating this horse over and over :beatdeadhorse:
Here's some specs off the Amsoil website: ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVES SPECTROGRAPHIC ANALYSIS: Passenger Car Motor Oils Zinc ppm Phosphorus ppm AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 0W-30 1599 1288 Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 5W-30 1070 892 Phillips 66 Trop Artic 10W-30 922 784 Pennzoil 5W-30 1170 905 Quaker State 10W-30 4X4 Synthetic Blend 1078 856 Castrol Syntec 5W-50 972 856 ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVES SPECTROGRAPHIC ANALYSIS: Racing Oils Zinc ppm Phosphorus ppm AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 20W-50 Racing Oil 1675 1380 Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 15W-50 1500 1174 Quaker State High Perf. Synthetic Blend 15W-50 1030 960 Havoline Formula 3 20W-50 1085 834 Castrol Syntec 5W-50 972 856 Valvoline Racing 20W-50 1192 1077 Personally, I use Mobil 1 for everything. Never had any problems. Dep |
Originally Posted by 540 RAT
(Post 1559350847)
Now let's take a look at the infamous VR1 "Racing Oil"
10W30 not SM rated and 20W50 SM rated….zinc/phos .130/.120 Hmmmm…….the VR1 shows the most zinc of all, yet is still claiming to be API SM rated, meaning amoung other things, that it won't damage the cats? Not!!! This is not Rocket Science, and you can't have your cake and eat it too. Plus, there is no mention of this oil damaging cats in Valvoline's text or on the bottles, huh??....that makes no sense at all, since they clearly point that out with the other Racing Oil. You can't have it both ways. Let's hope Valvoline just has a misprint on their website, otherwise it would appear to be deliberate misinformation. If anyone would still want to run VR1 with all this suspect info, then by all means do so. http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...e=1#Post810397 whats suspect? are you saying you do not believe the these specs "zinc/phos .130/.120" what do you base your comments on? |
Originally Posted by bobs77vet
(Post 1559351552)
whats suspect? are you saying you do not believe the these specs "zinc/phos .130/.120" what do you base your comments on?
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Know what amazes me??? How the hell did guys build and race hot rods back BEFORE we had all this high tech gibberish to argue about????
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Dep |
Originally Posted by DJ Dep
(Post 1559352799)
Know what amazes me??? How the hell did guys build and race hot rods back BEFORE we had all this high tech gibberish to argue about????
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Dep |
Originally Posted by dgruenke
(Post 1559352822)
That was back when most oils would suffice.
Dep |
Originally Posted by 540 RAT
(Post 1559352437)
If you've been following along, you'd know that API SM rated oils are the ones with the lowest zinc/phos levels to protect the cats on modern cars. .
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DJ dep:iagree:
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Just a quick thought: Those are based on weight fractions correct? Is it possible that VR-1 has some other different component than the racing oil which has a smaller density? This way, it could look like ther is more zinc by weight percent in VR-1, but maybe if you checked mole percentages you see that it is actually less. Just a thought.
example: Density of ZDDP - 3.7 g/mL 80 ml/L Average Density of rest of Race Oil 2.6 g/mL 920ml/L wt% .110 Zinc Density of ZDDP - 3.7 g/mL 60 ml/L Average Density of rest of VR-1. 1.8g/ml 940ml/L wt% .115 Zinc |
I use Kendall GT1 SAE50
Any opinions on this oil? Joe :cheers: |
heres the link...you may be thinking about the energy conserving rating.....there is nothing in SM that says it can't have high zinc contents....however the energy conserving rating does have some limitiations..let me find the info on that.
http://www.api.org/certifications/en...rd_English.pdf |
Oil
I thought rottelle t was fine. Via this forum. I love my original car .:cheers:
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Originally Posted by foxymophandlpapa
(Post 1559356518)
Just a quick thought: Those are based on weight fractions correct? Is it possible that VR-1 has some other different component than the racing oil which has a smaller density? This way, it could look like ther is more zinc by weight percent in VR-1, but maybe if you checked mole percentages you see that it is actually less. Just a thought.
example: Density of ZDDP - 3.7 g/mL 80 ml/L Average Density of rest of Race Oil 2.6 g/mL 920ml/L wt% .110 Zinc Density of ZDDP - 3.7 g/mL 60 ml/L Average Density of rest of VR-1. 1.8g/ml 940ml/L wt% .115 Zinc I think I'll prove myself wrong. The actual densities are: VR-1 Race Oil: 7.27 lb/gal Syn. Race Oil: 7.16 lb/gal ZDDP: average ~9.18 lb/gal A greater weight fraction of ZDDP in VR-1 would make sense by these numbers. Unless there is something else in there that is much, much heavier than ZDDP. |
for kicks i grabbed a vr1 10w-30 oil bottle and do you know whats not there....the API certification label.....
the API certification label means "API’s Service Symbol and Certification Mark identify quality engine oils for gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles. Oils displaying these marks meet performance requirements set by U.S. and international vehicle and engine manufacturers and the lubricant industry. More than 500 companies worldwide participate in this voluntary program, which is backed by a marketplace sampling and testing program." now the bottle does say "exceeds engine protection requirements for API services sm/sl/cd" so based on whats observable on the bottle valvoline is not participating in the API rating/certification process for some reason. and in fact on the valvoline website http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR...otor%20Oil.pdf 10w30 which is the bottle i grabbed is not even listed as being API SM/SL/SJ rated i have no reason to think Valvoline is misrepresenting anything, although i cannot explain that oil analysis you posted |
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