Dual air meter FI pictures
 

Does anyone have pictures, or, is anyone interested in seeing pictures of dual air meter FI units???
I'm having photos put onto a disc at Walmart (when my wife returns from her shopping pilgramage). If there is any interest, I'll post some.

I'd like to see it... yes..

yes, please post em; been a lonnnnng time since i've seen one like that. i've even seen them with 3 air meters....
Bill

I would like to see them :cool:

OK, here they are.
The first 8 pictures are of the dual air meter that is installed on the FIRST SRII (originally built for Jerry Earl). I'm sure several of you are familiar with this car.
If I could EVER find a complete 62 Air meter, I WOULD modify the unit on my 56 like the below!!!!!!
If you look close, you can tell that almost the whole side of an early finned top plenum was cut out and what appears to be a 1/2in alum plate welded in place with holes cut for the 2 air meters. Actually, this is quite an ingenious modification and as I understand, it works great!

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...an0026_026.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...37_037_037.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...nobreather.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...an0008_008.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...an0009_009.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...an0007_007.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...an0011_011.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...an0032_032.jpg

The next 3 pictures are of a 64-65 type FI that John Eyestone had advertised for sale a number of years ago. I took these pictures at the NCRS Nationals at Grand Lake in '93. As you can see from the decal on one of the pictures, this must have been on one of the GULF Oil Corvette racers at one time.
A unit like, or similar to this was also used on some of the Bill Thomas Chetahs.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...an0030_030.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...an0028_028.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...an0027_027.jpg

Great pics Tom. :thumbs: Thanks for posting them.

Tom, thanks for posting the pics. Do you have any idea what kind of power the earlier FI could support? What effect do you think the dual airmeters would have on driveability?

Those are cool interesting photos. Thanks for sharing. oWEN

Very nice... :thumbs:

Wes,
From what FI knowledge I have gained over the years, the primary limiting factor to the early FI units (57-65) was air intake. Adding a second air meter, theoretically, would double air flow (of course assuming the plenum could also flow the added air). I have a HEALTHY SB400 in my 56, and it is a rocket from 2000-5300rpm. By about 5500, it is falling off and at 6000 it is straining for air. There is no question in my mind that my 400/FI could benefit from a second air meter. Although, I don't really need that much more air, because I seldom push it beyond 5000. The car has a 3.08 rear and the 406 cubic inches will easily turn a 3.08 gear, even uphill out of the hole. So, from stop to 5000 and then a hard power shift to 2nd, and its gone! (but it would be nice to go up to 6500 more easily)
The person that owns the early unit told me that the fuel meter had to have some special modification done to it (in the area of the main fuel valve). Also, I have a drawing given to me by John Eyestone years ago that shows the necessary modification to be done to the two types of fuel valves for use with a dual air meter FI unit.
The person who owns the early unit that's on the SRII told me who did the fuel meter modification on his unit (forget his name). I called him about the mod to the fuel meter and he confirmed that he knew what to do-----------------but he would NOT give me ANY information about exactly what had to be done. From the drawing that John Eyestone gave me, I believe I could figure out what and how to do the mod. BUUUUUUUUUUUT, I don't have a second 62 air meter to add to my unit, so, at this time, it really doesn't matter!
As far as driveability goes, well, I don't know because I don't have any personal experience behind a dual air meter equiped car. But if set up properly, it should be just as smooth as a normal FI unit.

I mentioned earlier that if a plenum could handle the added air flow from a second air meter, there should be a noticeable increase in power output.
My plenum is already hogged out for added air flow. I have one of the early finned top plenums that was cut in half by Bill Thomas (maybe in conjunction with Hayden Proffit????), right down the middle between the center fins, severely hogged out, then welded back together. Because so much material was removed from the inside of the plenum, a 283 would probably loose some bottom end torque. But, on my 400, the added displacement seems to adequately overcome any loss.

As I understand, the 57-61 air meters flowed around 550cfm and the 327 (62-65) air meters flowed a bit more, about 600cfm. My FI unit has a 62 air meter on it, thus, theoretically, if a second 62 air meter were added, then that would be about 1200cfm!!!! So, how much engine could 1200cfm support?

Here is one I ran across on e-bay a few years ago. Was run on a custom bodied Corvette chassis called the Mongoose. Owned and raced by R. Scott Hooper.
(sorry goofed on pictures, I'll try again)

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/classi...injector_1.jpg
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/classi...injector_5.jpg
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/classi...injector_6.jpg
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/classi...injector_7.jpg
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/classi...mongoose-1.jpg
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/classi...mongoose-2.jpg

Bears some resemblance to the Cheetah don't you think.


And here is the Alan Greene Cheetah at the Pacific International Historics 2006.
One of my all time favorites!

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/classi...2006__17a_.jpg
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/classi...2006__20a_.jpg
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/classi...2006__23a_.jpg


:cheers:

Tom, good luck with your search for another air meter. Would you like me to ask around for you out here?

I've been looking for a 62 FI unit, but haven't had much luck. From looking at them, they look like they'd give a little more mid range and top end than the low rise factory carb set-ups.

Given the cost of the Rochester units, I started looking at the alternatives. There are guys in the C4 section converting later LT1 fuel injections to work with the earlier TPI bases, which fit the early heads and allow a distributor to be used. The LT1 runners are similar to the early Rochester units, and have a good reputation for making power in the mid and upper RPM ranges.

I suspect you could use a tach drive distributor, if it was converted to run a later TPI module (similar to a Dave Ray small cap HEI conversion).

Anyways, before I stray too far off topic, I'd be interested in hearing from someone (with experience) how a dual air meter set-up performs on the street.

The guy I bought my 60 from, has or had one like the last pics. His name is Chuck and lives in Mass. He had it for sale at Carlisle a few years ago. I don't know if he sold it.

i have seen, but don't have pictures of, a 63 - 65 unit with 3 air meters; the 2 on top and the 3rd one in it's original postion. and i've seen, (again no pictures) an early style with 2 air meters 'stacked' in the original position (effectively giving a longer air passage length).
Bill

This duel air meter set up was used on the Grand Sport driven by Dick Thompson for the Yenko/Gulf Oil Corvette racing team in 1963.
Gulf went with Ford in 1964.
This engine was part of the Yenko estate sale.
Has alum heads and billet machined alum. prototype parts
Also has a gear driven fuel pump set up on the dist.

I read in the Yenko note books that one of the problems they had with racing the stock FI was breaking the cable drive

Gulf Research Lab did extensive development and testing on Corvette FI. I saw some of the Gulf engineering notebooks that showed ink splatter testing results. They had books full of cards with ink splatter samples that they must have used to analyze the FI system.
I have have some of Yenko's note books that show the dyno test results from 1961 where they had recieved special FI system from Chevy that made 24hp more then the stock FI system. In the notes they mention somthing was a "one piece design" vs (I guess) a stock two piece design?

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/bss/joe58/dcp01615.jpg

looks to me that one of the air meters are either turned up side down or has had machineing to remove some bosses.
There is a fellow in South bend Indiana that has been doing fuel injection for years,,and has parts for sale. His name is Jack Podell.He used to advertise in hemming alot,maybe still does.I think he has an email addy,podellsfi@aol.com.......not sure.

Klaus,
I can't open those first 4 pictures.

Oops! Ok I fixed the links.

Tom, I'd be interested in the fuel valve modifications if you would care to send me the info. I too have been playing with FIs for many years and am currently running 62 FI on HP 355 motor. I have long thought about building a dual air meter unit for mine as well.

:cheers:

The best I can do is scan the drawing, then email it to you.
Will that work?

Tom; You have an e-mail.:cheers:

Dual-Air F.I. I saw in the mid 60's
 

When I was racing my 66/427 in club events in the New England area in 1966/67/68 two guys from Mass we're racing a small-block Corvette with this same setup. Their names were Ken Duclose and Ken Habbler (spelling may be incorrect). They both raced a verity of Corvette's and sometimes a Corba. They often raced with the Corvettes of Ma. Club.

I think they also raced SCCA.

Joe

I was not familiar with the Dual Air Meter set up for the Rochester FI Units..... Learned a bit about them last Friday...... :)

Great Video, thanks for posting it. I have seen that car run many times at Seattle International Raceway (now Pacific International Raceways) and it is still one of my favorite race cars of all time.

Klaus, did you ever construct a dual air meter FI for yourself?

Hi Jim;
No I haven't but have entertained the idea for sure. I haven't had as much time since I retired!! Don't ask, I can't explain it except that I have a small farm an enough projects to last several lifetimes. Could happen though, I'm not ruling it out, would be fun.

I think you might be referring to Chris Wickersham. He owned a tricked out Devin SS that he vintaged race. I think Rick Mason had him do all the work on his SR-2 FI which, I believe, was a dual meter system. I drove that car extensively through the canyons of Tahoe a number of years ago. Being a 283, the power wasn't much different, as I remember it, from a standard 283 FI unit.

That is exactly correct. Chris Wickersham, as well as Bill Thomas, were probably among the more knowledgeable FI people for dual air meter FI setups. When I first contacted Chris years ago, he was reluctant to to provide any information. But when I was working on an existing dual air meter unit for someone anonymous (per his request), Chris was readily willing to help me get it dialed in.
Unfortunately, I cannot post pictures of that unit because the owner does not want them available to the public.I will say that I spend a LOT of time trying to sort it out and fabricate some changes which I thought would be an improvement. The owner had gone to several of the nationally known FI gurus and none of them would touch it. The owner was referred to me by one of the well know FI guys and I agreed to give it my best. I guess it's working today.

Good observation, Dan. I can't imagine the 283 which could benefit from the extra air flow of a dual air meter FI. It is good eye candy though.

My '60's 283 has my home grown FI which flows 700 CFM (measured) with a single air meter and it's more than adequate.

A common problem, Klaus.

When I hear of someone about to retire, I *always* warn them to get all their projects done first because after they retire they won't have as much free time.

Pre-retirees look at me like I have a disease. Post-retirees nod their heads knowingly.

Larry Webb, who was in the video I posted with the Cheetah, went through the distributor for our car last Friday, as we were dealing with some timing issues..... The shop he did the work at is run by a friend of mine. When I went to pick it up, Larry was gone, but my friend was telling me about some of the other things he and Larry do work on, which includes some of these dual air meter set ups......

I enjoy hearing about those who have worked to come up with performance improvements and innovations...... :)

Yes, Larry Webb was the feature speaker in the you-tube video, what a gentleman. He is located here in the Seattle area and is renowned for his abilities. He has overhauled the FI's on both my 57 and 61. I consider it a privilege to know him, not to mention that he'll work on my equipment... Al

I will say one thing, Jim, that SR 2 was one hell of a lot of fun to drive. Very nimble and responsive. It had Porsche seats. Very roomy and comfortable. Rich is a very generous person and a true enthusiast. One of the nicest guys that ever visited the hobby. He is doing well in Carson City. I spoke with him the other day. He is getting a little perturbed from not receiving the new Corvette. His collection has been sold. He told me that he misses the 427 Cobra Prototype (Ken Miles Flip-Top). He had some nice iron in that collection. I also drove his Cobra "DragonSnake". That was a wild ride. It had some real cooling issues but was really quick.

I knew he was "thinning the herd" but I didn't realize he was getting rid of everything. He did tell me once that he wanted/needed to simplify life so I guess letting the rolling stock go is one aspect of that goal. I'm envious that you got to drive both the DragonSnake and the SR2!

Related to the SR2, a dim memory is telling me the current custodian has removed the dual air meter FI. Given how well sorted it was, I can't imagine why anyone would do that.

That is correct. The person(s) that bought Rich's SR2 did a cosmetic restoration, removed the dual air meter and installed a single air meter FI unit. I was finally able to contact the (then) current owner and inquired why the dual air meter unit was removed. I was basically told that was the way it was originally built, and I expressed that Rich had routinely vintage raced it and did very well with the dual air meter unit and that was the way the car was best recognized. Their response was NOT pleasant.

Many years ago, I contacted Rich about his dual air meter setup (because I wanted to build one for the SB400 in the 56). He explained to me about Chris Wickersham doing the fine tuning to the unit (mainly on the fuel meter side), and he sent me a lot of pictures of the unit. I can post them if anyone is interested.

People do strange things. His DragonSnake, for example, was a pretty correct car. The purchaser, from what I understand, did a major resto on the car (for reasons I cannot imagine), Rich's cars were always pristine. The guy must have as must in the resto as he did in the purchase and that was seven figures. That is hard to get your "head around".

I'd love to see the pic's, I have a dual air meter unit I got off E-bay many years ago, which I can post pic's of in return. Feel free to PM me if you'd like at HughesLT1@yahoo.com

OK, here ya go.
Several years ago, when I was wanting to build a dual air meter unit for the 400 in our 56, I contacted Rich and he sent these pictures to me. This is the dual air meter unit which was on Rich Mason's SR2 when he owned it (it's been removed).
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...b0966d80a0.jpg





https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...251d9899dc.jpg



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...00cb25372e.jpg



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...e4a3f5e0ea.jpg



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...2f4d3e17c5.jpg



https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...6f3e4d7b7f.jpg



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...de130b2e99.jpg



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...98cb41073e.jpg



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...83c37cdc4c.jpg



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...7800e71287.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...a3110cba2f.jpg
A little eye candy. In the garage pic, the yellow Cobra DragonSnake can be seen down the row. Next to it, is the Crown Jewel: the 427 Cobra Prototype aka Ken Miles' "Flip Top".
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...44cbb91be7.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...5a7d0e08cd.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...8498e159de.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...c11ffbc282.jpg

Thanks for sending these Tom, nicely done, I sent you some pic's via PM mail and I'd post them here, but I can't figure out how to attach them.

Photo I took of Rich's car in 2007 in Reno at car show event associated with HMSA race.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...f2c5d395a.jpeg