67 L88 on ebay
 

Has this one been posted yet?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-...QQcmdZViewItem

Just saw it on there. It looks really sharp!!! :thumbs:

Let's wait and see what this one goes for. :toetap: Just wish I had hit the lottery lately, with all the nice cars that have been put up for auction.

two things come to my mind as I look at the car.

1. who in their right mind would sell an L-88 on eBay if it was REAL??!!

2. Is it me or does that stamp pad look to "perfect" - too straight and even and all numbers and letters perfectly in line with each other. Real factory stampings weren't done that carefully I thought. I don't claim to know much about stamp pads though so it will be interesting to see what others have to say about it

Warning Will Robinson..... :willy:

That one has been on eBay before.... "Most numbers match"...... is a clear tip off that it is NOT a real L-88...... :ack:

See, I was wondering the same thing on both points. Especially that engine pad, those numbers look perfect!

When this car was on the forum before, someone mentioned that the car was actually one of a group purchase of 12 Vettes by the Shriners. As the VIN #'s were in that group purchase range..... :D

why yes it is. so that means it is white with blue inteiror, with a 327/300 M20. jsut sent him a question. :rolleyes:

Ohhh yeah, I remember that now. This is the same car? Very interesting.... :yesnod:

Broach marks - some of the pro's can look at the pad and tell if it has the appearance of an unmolested factory stamp. When the block was pushed through the machine that decks it ( I think?) it left particular swirl marks on the pad that most mom and pop machine shops cannot reproduce.

I thought all 20 of the 67 L-88's were documented and accounted for yes no?? :cool:

not that I know of. the old joke is they 20 chevy made 30 are accounted for and documented

This car was at the Barrett Jackson a few years ago and brought big money until the guys couldn't provide the documentation that he said he had....it resold the next day for much less. Not sure if any of you guys that have 67s have your window sticker and such but my dad still has the origianl window sticker and a letter from GM from when he ordered it and we were looking at them today and they both list the dealer address with a 2 digit zip code???? His is from Denver, CO and just listd the zip as 19.......any other ideas on this?

here is what he wrote back to me
You do not have any records/documentation on any 67 or older corvettes sold at Anderson Chev because they do not exist. I have personaly been to Wahoo & discused this with the owners son (who was 10 years old in 67) who showed me a list of vin #,s on corvettes they had sold & that is all they have! If you have documented proof to the contary lets see it.

He actually posted your question and his answer on eBay as well.

I can't believe he answered the email and left it on the eBay site.... :lol:

"1967 Corvette L-88 convertable 1 of 20 built(Not Yenko)"

Taken from his eBay listing..... what the hell does "Not Yenko" mean....

Only thing I can think of is not "Yenko-ing your chain".... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, VIN's are known. This is not one of them. This car has been for sale for years. Started life as a small block. Well known with collectors.

The guy is in defensive mode because he knows full well the car is a fake, and has been trying to unload it as an L-88 for years with no success. G.L. Anderson (owner of the dealership when the Shriner cars were ordered and delivered) posts regularly on the NCRS Board, and has ALL the Shriner Corvette records, including this one. :thumbs:

According to the Corvette Fever magazine just recently out it said that there were 16 of the 20 67 L-88's documented :thumbs: Not 30 :D

I remember reading the old threads about it now. I am wondering how the car was represented to him (the current owner)? Just curious. I always wonder if you follow it back, who would be the person that cloned it or changed it?

It's so that anyone punching Yenko in to the search engine gets the pleasure of seeing his listing. I'm not sure what his reasoning is on this one though. As an example, I have seen listing such as 65 Corvette not 63,63,64,66,67. More exposure, I guess. Personally, I find it quite annoying.

Mike

And if you did follow it back...would they admit they were the ones?

I am not against the people that do these "clones" and if it is well done thats great....BUT....don't try and pass it off as a "real" one. I am still interested in what happened with the sale of the "L88 Tanker" 67 that sold on eBay a few months ago for $850,000...that was an absolutly gorgeous car and well done but with all the info I read here on the forum about that car is that it was a TOTAL fake. I really wonder if these are REAL bids people are putting on these cars or if they are SHILL bidding, although the $850,000 met reserve so if it was SHILL bidding the seller would have had to pay a sellers fee. You would think that these people bidding on these supposed REAL L88 cars would do a little homework. I guess thats what is great about the Corvette community...it seems we are all pretty tight knit and someone seems to always know the true story behind some of the clones that are trying to be passed off as the real deal. :cheers:

The car has been for sale for years. I think the guy wants $500,000 for it. Something is wrong with the engine. Re-stamped and something else.

I am with you a 110%! :thumbs: I actually really like clones (I've been working on a L89 clone for a while now... :lol: ) but don't go off and then try to sell it as the real deal. :nono:

John thanks for reinsuring me that I was right and not full of it. I normally don't get all worked up on these type of things but when it is this obvious and the seller is trying to pass it off as real it gets to me. I don't care if anyone clones, recreates, what ever to a car as long if they go to sell it they advertise of what it is really is. :cheers:

AND NOW THE TRUTH

Posted By: GL Anderson <Send E-Mail>
Date: Thursday, 22 December 2005, at 5:56 p.m.

In Response To: L88 ????? (Page Campbell #2299)

Well he only got maybe 3 things right in his ebay ad. He did talk to me, it was sold to a William Neeck and it is a 1967 Corvette. Not only was it a 350hp small block car when produced and we picked it up at the factory, but it was also my Fathers Shrine Corvette Patrol parade car. Since my dad was the dealer and also in the patrol he never had to license his Shrine car but rather drove it on a dealer plate. The first true owner would have been Mr Neeck. There are several photos out there showing the 67 Shrine cars and members standing by their car. I can point out that exact car in the pics. It had a blue interior from the factory. Everything about it being an L88 is a fake. The buyers invoice is fake, I don't know about the repair order so maybe he got 4 things right. He came to me in the early 90s and wanted me to back his story about the supposed L88. I told him no way. By the way I was 21 in 1967 and between my twin brother and I put several thousand miles on that exact car. As to paperwork no I don't have the factory invoice but I do have other documentation on that car. I don't hang out on other Corvette boards but if anybody wants to know the truth, let them know it is a fake. I will be happy to provide the documentation I have and point out a number of errors he has made in his paperwork, but only to someone I trust won't take that info back to him so he can do a better job next time. Any questions? GL

Good job 71vert.....just like I said....someone always knows the real story in the Corvette community. Hopefully we can #1 keep someone from losing their hard earned money on a FAKE and #2 keep the next guy building a FAKE from trying to pawn it off as the REAL DEAL.

There are now 2 bids on the car but with the Private Bidding there is no way to tell if it is just shill bidding or not.

Here's what REAL numbers look like----
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c5/kgruber//cimg3767.jpg

Ahhhhh, the virgin engine pad.... :lol:

Those look nice, and real!!! :thumbs:

ztheusa I suppsoe you own a real L88, if so that is cool what number is your car I mean is it the 10 or so L88 made

I'm guessing the numbers Z the USA is showing is just an example of what GM numbers should look like. Guessing its not an L88 pic since they are not alum heads.

the heads should be painted in 67, i think in 68, and 69 they were left bare :thumbs:

Looks like a decked stamper me. One of the characters is totally incorrect and is very easy to overlook. Almost every restamper makes this same mistake. Unless you have owned a real unstamped original car you would never notice. ;)

One of the questions begging to be asked here is even if you are a bidder who doesn't read the Corvette Forum, have no idea that you are getting screwed....wouldn't the fact that he has been an eBay member for less than 30 days, is doing a Private auction and he has 0 feedback throw up some kind of a RED FLAG? The car has 4 bids and is bid up to over $120,000 right now, my guess is that since it is a Private auction that none of the bids are real anyways but still.

If I was to spend over 50K on any old car I would do a lot of research.

http://corvetterepair.com/67%20L88/A...G_4556_jpg.jpg

This is a real L88 engine stamp!

Mitch

Ahhh, the hairs on the back of my neck just stood up. :yesnod:

7 bids...up to 132,600...what do u think? Shill bidding? or Real Bidding?

Correct me if I am wrong here, but the vin is 2390? Right? So as I understand it based on the Astoria Chas story. The L-88 option wasn't even available yet in this early production of a car. It was a little later on in 67 production.

Does anyone know what the vin of the first L-88 production car to run off the line was?

:cheers:

Happy Holidays!!!!

from the NCRS board

ahh, right on cue!

Mitch ol buddy, have you gotten myChristmas present wrapped yet?

what's a little L88 between friends? :D

From the PIC you posted know one could tell if it's real or not. Can you post a close up?

There is know way anyone could determine from the pic you posted whether it's real or memorex. The paint and rust reveals nothing about original or stamper. A better close up picture would help determine if the code is authentic and a bare deck un-painted deck is the only way to tell for sure. I can't believe the guy who posted the comment it's nice to see a real one. Same guy who would buy the clone off eBay???

OK gang...how about this one real stamp or memorex?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-...QQcmdZViewItem

real car, real engine.

I would "guess" that this is the real deal. The stamping looks MUCH more authentic than that L88. It looks to be nice documented car. One question i have for you NCRS guys is what is the deal with the dates on the block vs the stamping? The block is dated Oct 10, 1966 and the block was stamped Dec 16, 1967....14 months difference?? How big of a time span can there be and still be legit?

I just went through the auction again....it mus tjust be a typo because th car was sold in March of 67 so the stamping must be Dec 16, 1966 and they just put 67 by mistake.

Sorry, I do not have the car home right now. If you wish you can view more images here
L88

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967...1QQcmdZViewItem

so that's what heaven looks like.
what a beautiful car!!
chuck

Gulp, I think I swallowed my tongue, call 911 !

I certainly want to respect you and the cars privacy. But, is the history about this car posted or shared anywhere ? I would love to hear its life story. Although, I can understand, if you want to keep it private.

click the link he provided, some of the car's history can be found on that site

[QUOTE=Grey Ghost But, is the history about this car posted or shared anywhere ? I would love to hear its life story.[/QUOTE]

Article on Mitch's car in the December issue of the Corvette Enthusiast.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...dos&forum_id=4

along with a shot of Mitch himself piloting the car - very glamourous stuff indeed

L88
 

I spoke with Gar Anderson yesterday. He is one of the sons of the dealer owner. He lives here in my city and works at the local Chevy dealer where I bought my 50th AE. I have known him for many years.
He said the car is a complete fake. It was originally one of the order of Shriner's cars. All were white with blue interiors and all were small blocks. Gar even accompanied his father to the St. Louis plant when the cars were picked up in person. Gar said the documentation pictured in the listing is fake, also. He said the seller tried to get Gar and his brother to collaborate with him on trying to sell this car as original, but Gar refused. The L88 option wasn't even available until January of 1967. This car was built in October of 1966.

L 88
 

This really sadens me to know this kind of thing goes on in our hobby,
however i think it will get a lot worse and may never get better in our
lifetime.Am i correct in this thinking?

435er

I have yet to see a real original engine stamp on this forum or eBay. It's amazing that people are such suckers. I'm also surprised that even some of the forum guys were fooled by the PICs posted on this thread.

I'm no expert, (or even close to being half way there.) But, I know you should see broach marks, if it hasn't been decked and restamped.

The IL code is for 390 horse (L36) and was used with both 4 sp and powerglide transmissions.

There's also a bogus 67 L89 convertible somewhere, although I hope the whore trying to sell it got caught.

In 1989 a dealer from Nebraska had a red 67 convertible with red hard top in the car coral at Bloomington alledging it was an original L89 (1 of 16 and rarer, though less valuable than a 67 L88) This guy had a bogus build sheet and a long yarn he was spinning about firsthand knowledge of the car. A friend who was there with me got interested in the car. I thought the pad looked bogus although the guy was swearing it had THE original motor and I got my friend to slow down until we got back home. A friend in law enforcement was able to trace the original MSO back to the selling dealer. The dealership had changed hands, but the son in law still worked there and he pulled the paperwork from upstairs. It was originally a 300 horse car. When confronted with the information, the dealer became enraged and told us to mind our own F'n business. He continued to advertise the car in Hemmings for up to a year after then. Initially I thought he was possibly the victim of a bad purchase himself, but later came to believe that he'd in fact pulled off the forgery.

I think it's about time that somebody buys one of these "documented" cars from one of these dealer and then files a criminal fraud charge with the Feds. Seems like about one of those is all it'd take to slow some of the crooks down.

With L-36, "IL" was 4-speed only (or "IM" with K-19); Powerglides got "IQ" (or "IR" with K-19). :thumbs:

If you haven't seen an original engine stamp in this thread then you were not looking.

Mitch

No disrespect to anyone but as far as I'm concered I haven't...

and your qualifications to judge a stamp pad are . . . .? please elaborate, we are, if nothing else, always willing to give someone the soapbox, but you have to put a little reasoning behind your bare conclusions, which your posts are completely DEVOID of, no disrespect . . .

iniguy:

How did you end up with the last name of Chevy?

Post pics of your pads so that we can learn from them.

Mike

Just to clarify...I stated "in my opinion" that I saw nothing in the two PICs of engine pads legible enough for anyone to determine if they are original stamping or not.

Here's why...

One has paint and rust which does not permit anyone to see the stamping clear enough to tell????

The other is a bare metal deck but it's blinded in the photo by the threaded coolant plug in the front of the cylinder head. Bottomline you can't see it.

Again no disrespect and they very well may be real but you can't tell from those PICs.

No soapbox needed just better PICs.

Well, we can always debate your point, but you have to live with your cooking my friend - one thing we numbnuts can do is read prior posts, especially whenthey disparage the entire forum - you DID say the following:

not: "I haven't seen a clear enough photo to make a determination"

so, it now seems you are backing off that statement since [I guess] you really have no basis to say all of our stamp pads are all fakes, all of the members of this forum are suckers, and the pictures of stamp pads posted on this thread should not have "fooled" anyone . . . . happy to hear your reasoned thoughts, assuming you have any to share. Otherwise, gonna have to put you in the :troll pile, beotch.

:eek:

you really are a lawyer aren't you Jack!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

so, it now seems you are backing off that statement since [I guess] you really have no basis to say all of our stamp pads are all fakes, all of the members of this forum are suckers, and the pictures of stamp pads posted on this thread should not have "fooled" anyone . . . . happy to hear your reasoned thoughts, assuming you have any to share. Otherwise, gonna have to put you in the :troll pile, beotch.[/QUOTE]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :smash: :smash: WAY TO EXPRESS YOURSELF JACK!

For more on the fake L-88, Ebay Item number: 8025205353 and 4599943173. Gar Anderson

I love it....I would love to see the real paperwork that G.L. Anderson has...did anyone else notice the sellers paperwork where it says....."Always bring your CARE (instead of Car) here for factory authorized service" I wonder if this was a real typo on the original paperwork or a typo by the person who faked the new paperwork.

it would seem that the corvette community would benefit substantially if one of the really knowledgeable vette people could (or would) publish vin numbers of the real ones. i bet someone out there has that info. that qualifing bit of info would (it would seem) force all future sales to be catagorized as either the real deal or clone.
fwiw,
chuck

On eBay you used to be able to retract your bid and type in your own reason for the retraction....too bad its not like that now or we could all bid on it and find out what his reserve is and then for reason for the bid retraction we could type in what a fraud it is.

The latest L-88 ebay auction Item number: 4600012082 By the way I can count at least 4 errors in his paperwork from Anderson Auto, not including the phoney L-88 parts. Gar Anderson

well, here's Jerry B's answer to the problem of the "Shriner 300 hp car now L88" auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=4599943173


:D :D :D :D

gotta love folks who go the extra mile to ensure the trouth is made known . . . .

have you been watching it over at the NCRS board :rofl:

"L88- picture of seller"... that is awesome, the funniest thing I have seen yet on ebay.

Maybe one of our local lawyers can answer this- isn't the seller of the "L-88" on ebay flat out committing a crime? He has faked paperwork "documentation" and the car's history is clearly known and can be proved as NOT being an L88. Isn't this some sort of fraud felony- especially because of the value of the scam item in question?

This guy needs a serious beat down if it is a for real fake :smash: ...


but what do I know???

yeah - say what you will about the NCRS, but those folks take these things pretty seriously! Nice touch, having GL Anderson himself posting up, and his brother Gar posting up right here . . . we sure have the critical witnesses on this one :thumbs:

One of the best laughs I've had in a long time. :rofl:

In regards to the fraud, if I'm correct, it would be a federal crime and the feds will want to turn it over to the local prosecutor because it's only 1 car and 1 transaction. Most local prosecutors have lost their fraud units because of budget cuts so they would most likely not put this on a high priority. But then again, one of them (Fed's or local) might want to get involved, given the dollar amount. Let's hope so... :flag:

A little history here. GL Anderson is my twin brother, and he and I were very involved with Anderson Auto at the time. The Ebay seller tried to minimize that fact. As a matter of fact, in 1967, my brother and I purchased our grandfather's Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealership which was located across the street from Anderson Auto. Although we were in college and owned the Buick store, we continued to work at the Chevy store. If we would have sold a real L-88, you'd think we would be helping the seller, not trying to stop him. Gar Anderson

In one of the questions on the L88 info auctions on ebay one of the people asking says he is one of the bidders on the FAKE L88 and seemed shocked that it wasn't a real L88 so maybe all the bids aren't shill bids.

The best satisfaction come from questions like this. I think at least one person was prevented from throwing his money away.

Keep up the good work, Mr Gar and Mr GL Anderson.

======================================== =
Q: How do you know that is the serial number on the second car? We are trying to buy this car and we appreciate all of your help. Thank You (Dec-26-05)

A: Because the car on ebay was my dads Shrine Corvette Patrol car and the second car in the photo has my dad standing next to it as the cars were lined up by Patrol member. I was there at the time as I was at many plant deliveries, even have my twin brother and my pics in Corvette News a number of times at Shrine Corvette Patrol plant deliveries. By the way I drove that car a number of times and contrary to the statements made by the seller in the one ebay email that got thru I was 21 in 1967. You need to read all the posts on the NCRS board to get all the info you need to make a decision. It shouldn't be hard to make as the car is a FAKE!!!!!!!!! and I do have the proof. I have no doubt the car is very nice, it just isn't a factory L-88. Buy the car if you want but just remember what it really is.

I'm no student of the law. But, I remember back in the late 80's or early 90's they prosecuted someone for changing the VIN tags on a high dollar Mopar. He had basically done the same thing with the Mopar, but went even further by getting the correct VIN tags and plates from another car and put them on the clone :eek: I guess, we need the legal desc. of fraud..CTJACKSTER ?

hate the lawyers 'till you want one, I am used to it . .

Generally, Fraud is a knowing misrepresentation of the truth or concealment of a material fact to induce another to act to his or her detriment. Note that "intent" is a necessary element, you cannot unintentionally commit fraud. Here the seller seems to know full well about the car's original configuration (he approached GL Anderson in the past to go along with the ruse, plus someone had to fake up the documents and that was done recently). And the L88 vs 300 hp issue is quite material ($$$). So we have common law fraud.

Then you might want to know what law has actually been violated by the seller just by trying to sell something in this fashion - state criminal law (likely) federal law (given the interstate commerce here, I would guess yes); and who might bring an action. For one, if a buyer discovers later on that the item was not as represented in a material apsect, he has a cause of action against the seller for fraud - he can recover damages (the price paid for the item vs the true value, or forced buy-back). Then you have local DAs and state AGs, and the FTC and the US Postal Service, who can bring actions against fraudulent sellers of goods.

Here is an old listing of legal cases involving auctions involving a fraud (like ebay auctions) - this thing is 5 years out of date, but it gives a pretty good flavor of the actions that can be brought and by whom.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/reports/int-auction.pdf

bla bla bla....I remember reading about 10 years ago there was only ONE original L-88 '67 that has survived. I think it was a coupe. And at that time is sold for almost 1mil.

ctjackster, thanks for that post and I'm sure glad I'm not trying to buy Beanie Babies! Really though, the post was quit informative and should be sent to the seller of the L88.

Just as important, who was the first sucker who bought it passed off as an L-88? And how many have owned it since? Being a travelling man, Id like to know more about the Shrine cars themselves as well.

From what I've heard and read this guy trying to sell it was the guy who did the conversion. It has been for sale for many years. I thought it sold at the BJ auction but it did not sell. I guess this guy has had it since the early 90s

Sean you are correct, when he came to see me in the early 90s to try to get me to back his story about the car he had the original Nebraska title that was signed by the first owner but not assigned to anyone. Same guy, Same car and Same BS as now. GL Anderson

Heres a new eBay auction warning against the purchase of this car

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevr...QQcmdZViewItem

Now that is telling it like it is :iagree:

Maybe all these "extra" ads on eBay are helping because there have been no more bids on the car. My guess is all or at least most of the previous bids have been from the seller anyway.

l-88
 

Car sold for 450k. Met reserve. :lol:

Hard to believe it went from $180,00 to $450,000 in 10 minutes and have a legitimate buyer. :nono:

Likely bought it back to save face. This thing will likely come back as an original Shriners car and the l-88 will end up in another car. :eek:

I don't think so there is too much money tied up there. what ever he does he is scewed. if he does put it back to a shriner, and put the L88 in aother 67 people might guess who he is, unless he advitrse as a clone

I doubt that was a real sale just a way to bump up the price at one of the winter auctions. If it was a real sale, I have some documents the new owner might find interesting. GL

I don't know what he is going to do. The folks on the NCRS board sure hammered him and are keeping an eye on this guy. He would be better off to sell it as a clone and go on to his next venture. :rolleyes:

If he puts the L-88 engine in another car, won't he have to re-deck and re-stamp the engine again?

only if he wants to try a forge anther real L-88. but if I was him I would deck the motor and leave it alone :lol:

Here is an email message I got from the high bidder. Wonder what the seller will do now??? GL Anderson

I bid on it knowing it was fake. Mainly I did it just to cost him some more money or at least the hassle of getting a refund through eBay. I figure if he wants to misrepresent the car then he deserves to have to spend some extra money and/or effort on his advertising.

If the seller actually expects me to buy the car he will first have to present evidence which proves the car is not one of the Shriner's cars. If he can do that then I'll gladly pay his reserve price.

Michael