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Who's running Ferrea hollow stemmed exhaust valves? F2042P
Who is running the hollow stemmed valves from Ferrea? If so how's your experience been with them?
Thanks! Joshua Edit: If you are, please leave info about your setup: Guides Cam Springs Red line limit? Valves Other mods Thanks! |
:lurk:
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Does anyone have the part number?
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I will be installing it later this year
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F2042P. Thats the one I've been looking at.
-Joshua |
Evil427 runs it. As does NavyAirTraffic.
A few others on the Registry listing run it as well. You might try contacting them. The people at American Heritage may be able to give you some more information on it as well, they offer it in one of their head packages. |
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586749180)
Evil427 runs it. As does NavyAirTraffic.
A few others on the Registry listing run it as well. You might try contacting them. The people at American Heritage may be able to give you some more information on it as well, they offer it in one of their head packages. |
Thanks for the info!
Can you confirm that they are one piece? Also what springs are you running with them? I was thinking Katech torquer cam with the PSI Springs that came with the cam. Thanks! Joshua |
Originally Posted by vertC6
(Post 1586749060)
Does anyone have the part number?
A set can be had for around $275.00 shipped Sorry, didn't see that post just above mine. |
Just picked my heads up an hour ago. Put ferrera hollow stems in them, install tomorrow.
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I have them in mine
I have had them in the car about 6-7 months. About 85 grams.
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Originally Posted by fendersceptre
(Post 1586749422)
Thanks for the info! Can you confirm that they are one piece? [...]
Originally Posted by fendersceptre
(Post 1586749422)
Also what springs are you running with them? I was thinking Katech torquer cam with the PSI Springs that came with the cam.
. |
Like Quick stated, I run them. Best thing to do is contact Kohle at American Heritage, very knowledgable and generous with his time.
However the real reason I chose the F2042P's is because of what Richard (WCCH) said about the sodium valves on a different forum. Good luck! We have definitely seen excessive wear in some LS7 exhaust guides. Mostly coming from engines with over 30k on the clock. We have seen some heads show inconsistent wear requiring only one or two guides needing replacement. It appears that the sodium exhaut valves are transmitting an excessive amount of heat from the stem to the guide. In some cases the oil is BBQ'd in the guide and the lack of lubrication and cooling from the oil causes the excessive wear (mostly in the lower half of the exhaut guide). We've measured some guides as having over .004" of wear in the lower 1" of exhaust guide length. Porsche 911's suffer the same type of related guide wear on the exhaust side. The next item to note regarding the sodium exhaust valves relates to the wall thickness of the sodium exhaust valve stem. It's only .040" thick and makes for a fragile exhaust valve. GM uses a good quality steel material but the design spec. renders the valves brittle at the neck. Hence the reason we choose the replace the factory units with stainless or inconel. The exhaust valves we use are manufactured with a .001" oversized stem size which allows us to hone the exhaust guides and remove most or all of the taper in the bore. In cases with excessive wear we replace the guides with bronze. |
Hi Navy,
Thanks for the info! Are you limiting your red line at all? Also what springs and cam are you running? Thanks! Joshua
Originally Posted by NavyAirTraffic
(Post 1586750513)
Like Quick stated, I run them. Best thing to do is contact Kohle at American Heritage, very knowledgable and generous with his time.
However the real reason I chose the F2042P's is because of what Richard (WCCH) said about the sodium valves on a different forum. Good luck! |
:lurk:
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QUOTE:
We have definitely seen excessive wear in some LS7 exhaust guides. Mostly coming from engines with over 30k on the clock. We have seen some heads show inconsistent wear requiring only one or two guides needing replacement. It appears that the sodium exhaut valves are transmitting an excessive amount of heat from the stem to the guide. In some cases the oil is BBQ'd in the guide and the lack of lubrication and cooling from the oil causes the excessive wear (mostly in the lower half of the exhaut guide). We've measured some guides as having over .004" of wear in the lower 1" of exhaust guide length. Porsche 911's suffer the same type of related guide wear on the exhaust side. The next item to note regarding the sodium exhaust valves relates to the wall thickness of the sodium exhaust valve stem. It's only .040" thick and makes for a fragile exhaust valve. GM uses a good quality steel material but the design spec. renders the valves brittle at the neck. Hence the reason we choose the replace the factory units with stainless or inconel. The exhaust valves we use are manufactured with a .001" oversized stem size which allows us to hone the exhaust guides and remove most or all of the taper in the bore. In cases with excessive wear we replace the guides with bronze. :crazy: :crazy2: :iagree: :flag: :lol: Man, i don't know how much better some people on here need it explained to them!? :crazy: |
I'd like to see these valves on the spintron machine:
Torquer cam/psi beehive springs/ferrea hollow SS valves. My guess, they would show stability up to 7,100. But I'd like to see the test run |
Yeah that made a lot or sense till people started realizing that it valve guide issues aren't isolated to just exhuast sides.
I think now the consensus is it's a valve seat machining error and there aren't really any issues with the valves. That being said, a two piece valve won't stay together after abuse or machining errors as well as a once piece.. |
Originally Posted by ramairws6
(Post 1586754474)
[...] It appears that the sodium exhaut valves are transmitting an excessive amount of heat from the stem to the guide. [...]
Originally Posted by ramairws6
(Post 1586754474)
Man, i don't know how much better some people on here need it explained to them!? :crazy:
By the way, folks, ramair's post was plagiarized, verbatim, from a four-year-old post by someone else on another forum: http://ls1tech.com/forums/13450863-post12.html . |
I wouldn't have known because he's on my ignore list.
|
Originally Posted by Mark2009
(Post 1586756950)
To the contrary. Once the guides are worn out, the stems are unable to transfer the heat to the guide, which cooks the oil on the stem.
Since you clearly haven't gotten it yet, you tell us :D By the way, folks, ramair's post was plagiarized, verbatim, from a four-year-old post by someone else on another forum: http://ls1tech.com/forums/13450863-post12.html . I clearly read his remark as pertaining to the quote he posted without properly using the quote function. :cheers: DH |
Originally Posted by Wass
(Post 1586757280)
I wouldn't have known because he's on my ignore list.
|
For all who are interested, here is the entire quote from Richard@WCCH.... I think it's interesting stuff!
We have definitely seen excessive wear in some LS7 exhaust guides. Mostly coming from engines with over 30k on the clock. We have seen some heads show inconsistent wear requiring only one or two guides needing replacement. It appears that the sodium exhaut valves are transmitting an excessive amount of heat from the stem to the guide. In some cases the oil is BBQ'd in the guide and the lack of lubrication and cooling from the oil causes the excessive wear (mostly in the lower half of the exhaut guide). We've measured some guides as having over .004" of wear in the lower 1" of exhaust guide length. Porsche 911's suffer the same type of related guide wear on the exhaust side. The next item to note regarding the sodium exhaust valves relates to the wall thickness of the sodium exhaust valve stem. It's only .040" thick and makes for a fragile exhaust valve. GM uses a good quality steel material but the design spec. renders the valves brittle at the neck. Hence the reason we choose the replace the factory units with stainless or inconel. The exhaust valves we use are manufactured with a .001" oversized stem size which allows us to hone the exhaust guides and remove most or all of the taper in the bore. In cases with excessive wear we replace the guides with bronze. I can't comment on weather the excessive guide wear is causing the valves to rattle around in the guide on on the seat causing the head failures. It may be due to excessive heat buildup from the restricted heat flow path to the guide. As I mentioned before, there's only 1mm of wall thickness at the valve neck. Not a good situation in engines producing high specific horespower. The stainless exhaust valves don't show the rapid wear that the sodium valves have. Given the same conditions, the bronze guides will wear as well. The size of the small heat path must be increased. With a solid stem valve heat is allowed to travel further up the length of the stem. It provides a larger flow path for heat dissipation. The primary heat path is through the valve seat. The secondary heat path is through the valve guide. Lean stoic. conditions at cruising speeds generate lots of heat on the exhaust valves with unleaded fuels. The heat bakes the small amounts of oil that makes it to the lower portion of the exhaust guide. Once the lubrication is gone there is metal to metal contact and on a molecular level electron sharing occurs. The steel molecues of the exhaust valve stem have a greater resistance to wear. The powdered metal guides have mixture of wear resisting alloys along with lubritious properties pressed into the matrix. You don't have to beat on the engine to experience valve guide wear. The primarly reason we use bronze valve guides is because GM will not sell the guides separately. Rather they will sell you an entire replacement head. The aftermarket parts supply only furnishes bronze alloy valve guides. I personally like the powdered metal valve guides the factory uses but the supplier does not sell piece meal to the public. Additionally we have no long term wear issues with the bronze guides and solid stem stainless steel valves. In the last decade GM has done a masterful job improving both metalurgy and rocker arm geometry to reduce overall valve guide wear. Rocker arm desings are also superbly executed. The issues seem to only be related to the sodium valves. |
Yes, I am running them. Over 3000 miles on them so far. And I don't limit the redline.
:cheers: |
Originally Posted by NavyAirTraffic
(Post 1586761027)
For all who are interested, here is the entire quote from Richard@WCCH.... I think it's interesting stuff!
What I have a hard time understanding is, when someone makes huge profits from an issue like this, why any intelligent individual would simply take the word of that guy who's making all the money. At best it is just one man's opinion, at worst it is an opinion which is tainted to ensure his profits are maximized. The more you can undermine confidence in GM's engineering the more money you will make...heck you'll even get lemmings who will 'fix' their heads when they aren't even 'broken' in the first place, just have to convince everybody about how 'weak' them stock valves are :ack: Cheers, Paul. |
And you will also get the biggest fools who think that people can watch these stock valves fail time and again, and not take notice of it and advocate business as usual when it comes to this matter.
I'm hoping that there is no one at GM, or in here for that matter, like that though. |
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586761397)
And you will also get the biggest fools who think that people can watch these stock valves fail time and again, and not take notice of it and advocate business as usual when it comes to this matter.
I'm hoping that there is no one at GM, or in here for that matter, like that though. |
Originally Posted by ramairws6
(Post 1586761681)
:lol: :lol: :D
The C5 column lock comes to mind. As does DBS and the crank pulley matter in the early C6s. I certainly hope that of those there who went along with business as usual in those instances, that there aren't others of the same ilk still there. Or anywhere else. But this below, is pretty strong and I edit my post here to include this following statement, only for the reason that I feel that it is liable to be removed from the individual who posted it. Normally I don't quote his tripe:
Originally Posted by MTIRC6Z
(Post 1586761247)
Given that GM is STILL using the sodium filled exhaust valve not only in the LS7 of the Z28 but also in the whole line of C7 Vettes, Richard has missed his calling, he could make MILLIONS from GM if he'd only share his wisdom. Just think of the huge engineering department budgets that could be eliminated by hiring Richard :rofl:
What I have a hard time understanding is, when someone makes huge profits from an issue like this, why any intelligent individual would simply take the word of that guy who's making all the money. At best it is just one man's opinion, at worst it is an opinion which is tainted to ensure his profits are maximized. The more you can undermine confidence in GM's engineering the more money you will make...heck you'll even get lemmings who will 'fix' their heads when they aren't even 'broken' in the first place, just have to convince everybody about how 'weak' them stock valves are :ack: Cheers, Paul. |
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586761397)
And you will also get the biggest fools who think that people can watch these stock valves fail time and again, and not take notice of it and advocate business as usual when it comes to this matter.
I'm hoping that there is no one at GM, or in here for that matter, like that though. Intake valves have failed too. Anyone who thinks the gm exhuast valves are the issues is in my opinion either ignorant, or just too stubborn to change a point of view after being mislead and misguided for a long time. |
Originally Posted by Blackonblacksls
(Post 1586761859)
Intake valves have failed too.
Anyone who thinks the gm exhuast valves are the issues is in my opinion either ignorant, or just too stubborn to change a point of view after being mislead and misguided for a long time. Do you know of more than that? If so, PM me as I try and keep track of the valve failures in here. Thanks. |
Originally Posted by Blackonblacksls
(Post 1586761859)
Intake valves have failed too.
Anyone who thinks the gm exhuast valves are the issues is in my opinion either ignorant, or just too stubborn to change a point of view after being mislead and misguided for a long time. |
Originally Posted by zcarbon
(Post 1586761950)
Wow Shady Inc. and his GF are over here too!:DDH
Spring is in the air :cheers: Bromances:rofl: |
Originally Posted by NavyAirTraffic
(Post 1586761027)
For all who are interested, here is the entire quote from Richard@WCCH.... I think it's interesting stuff!
[...] The size of the small heat path must be increased. With a solid stem valve heat is allowed to travel further up the length of the stem. It provides a larger flow path for heat dissipation. [...] The whole concept of a sodium filled valve is to move heat further up the length of the stem, away from the head of the valve. The quote above has it exactly backwards... in fact, the solid stem valve will let heat concentrate near the head. I would be wary about taking valve selection advice from someone who got such a basic concept so completely wrong. Following graphic from Manley, regarding heat distribution on a hollow sodium valve versus a solid titanium valve: The NexTek valve uses XH-428 stainless steel and a completely new manufacturing technique to create a valve with a hollow stem and head. The hollow sections of the valve are filled with sodium. The sodium provides an internal cooling mechanism for the valve, drawing heat away from the valve head. Read more: http://www.circletrack.com/enginetec...#ixzz307Cxdc6v |
Originally Posted by Mark2009
(Post 1586762487)
It is interesting, but sadly it is wrong.
The whole concept of a sodium filled valve is to move heat further up the length of the stem, away from the head of the valve. The quote above has it exactly backwards... in fact, the solid stem valve will let heat concentrate near the head. I would be wary about taking valve selection advice from someone who got such a basic concept so completely wrong. Following graphic from Manley, regarding heat distribution on a hollow sodium valve versus a solid titanium valve: ... How do you know which one is right? |
Interesting that anyone still thinks there is a valve issue in the LS7……..As has been posted, and as I have machine shop results showing, there is a machining problem in the LS7 head in terms of guides to valve seat alignment. Argument is old.
Argument about the hollow stem exhaust valve should center on the pros vs cons of such a valve. Not many cons in terms of "street" use. The LS7 intake valve is a nice piece. |
Originally Posted by WhiteDiamond
(Post 1586762716)
Interesting that anyone still thinks there is a valve issue in the LS7……..As has been posted, and as I have machine shop results showing, there is a machining problem in the LS7 head in terms of guides to valve seat alignment.
But the question remains as to if it is the case in "all", or even "most" of the examples of stock exhaust valve failure. No one has been able to answer that, because no one has looked. That's like being the coroner in a city, getting a call that a dead body has been found, and then automatically assuming that the person must have been stabbed or shot. Well how do you know, unless you look? |
Originally Posted by Blackonblacksls
(Post 1586761859)
Intake valves have failed too.
Anyone who thinks the gm exhuast valves are the issues is in my opinion either ignorant, or just too stubborn to change a point of view after being mislead and misguided for a long time. BUT you know what, IF I were making a really good living 'fixing' these heads but didn't actually know what was wrong in the first place and that I was basically just taking a shot in the dark that my work was going to last, I too might want to use a solid valve just in case my machine work didn't 'fix' the issue and the guides worn out again, you know kinda hedge my bets :ack: Then of course all you'd need is a couple guys who aren't smart enough to recognise that the valve isn't actually the problem, get them to go on the internet a create all kinds of hype and hysteria about how flawed the stock valves are and the end result is an awesome business making lots of money. And you know if the couple guys you got to create the hysteria were really gullible you wouldn't even have to pay them because they'd think you all were friends :rofl: Cheers, Paul. |
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586762703)
So you have one group of professionals from Manley saying one thing, and another from elsewhere saying another.
How do you know which one is right? Here I was thinking you have some ability in critical analysis and were able to make good judgements, you continue to prove me wrong so regularly it's embarrassing :rofl: Cheers, Paul. |
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586761397)
And you will also get the biggest fools who think that people can watch these stock valves fail time and again, and not take notice of it and advocate business as usual when it comes to this matter.
I'm hoping that there is no one at GM, or in here for that matter, like that though. Why are there oem heads straight from the supplier with machine issues which will lead to premature guide wear? Why are these valves dropping in some cars in a few thousand miles and others have clocked 100k plus? Oops.... The above facts negate Richards letter. Hes a smart guy and is a good head shop but in this case he over thought the issue and missed the mark. It happens to the best of them. Even the most brilliant minds of our time have had their theories proven wrong in time. |
Originally Posted by MTIRC6Z
(Post 1586763059)
SERIOUSLY...you have difficulty choosing between a long standing multi-million dollar company that ACTUALLY manufactures valves over a guy who slams some new guides and heavy-assed valves into a head to 'fix' it without know WHY the guides wore out in the first place :willy:
Here I was thinking you have some ability in critical analysis and were able to make good judgements, you continue to prove me wrong so regularly it's embarrassing :rofl: Cheers, Paul. |
Originally Posted by MTIRC6Z
(Post 1586761247)
Given that GM is STILL using the sodium filled exhaust valve not only in the LS7 of the Z28 but also in the whole line of C7 Vettes, Richard has missed his calling, he could make MILLIONS from GM if he'd only share his wisdom. Just think of the huge engineering department budgets that could be eliminated by hiring Richard :rofl:
What I have a hard time understanding is, when someone makes huge profits from an issue like this, why any intelligent individual would simply take the word of that guy who's making all the money. At best it is just one man's opinion, at worst it is an opinion which is tainted to ensure his profits are maximized. The more you can undermine confidence in GM's engineering the more money you will make...heck you'll even get lemmings who will 'fix' their heads when they aren't even 'broken' in the first place, just have to convince everybody about how 'weak' them stock valves are :ack: Cheers, Paul. :cheers: DH |
Originally Posted by zcarbon
(Post 1586761950)
Wow Shady Inc. and his GF are over here too!:DDH
Spring is in the air :cheers: Bromances:rofl: :cheers: DH |
Originally Posted by MTIRC6Z
(Post 1586762991)
EXACTLY :thumbs: Oh yeah there's a few of those around here.
BUT you know what, IF I were making a really good living 'fixing' these heads but didn't actually know what was wrong in the first place and that I was basically just taking a shot in the dark that my work was going to last, I too might want to use a solid valve just in case my machine work didn't 'fix' the issue and the guides worn out again, you know kinda hedge my bets :ack: Then of course all you'd need is a couple guys who aren't smart enough to recognise that the valve isn't actually the problem, get them to go on the internet a create all kinds of hype and hysteria about how flawed the stock valves are and the end result is an awesome business making lots of money. And you know if the couple guys you got to create the hysteria were really gullible you wouldn't even have to pay them because they'd think you all were friends :rofl: Cheers, Paul. :cheers: DH |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586763304)
And how is the excessive heat wearing out the intake guides?
Why are there oem heads straight from the supplier with machine issues which will lead to premature guide wear? Why are these valves dropping in some cars in a few thousand miles and others have clocked 100k plus? Oops.... The above facts negate Richards letter. Hes a smart guy and is a good head shop but in this case he over thought the issue and missed the mark. It happens to the best of them. Even the most brilliant minds of our time have had their theories proven wrong in time. :cheers: DH |
Originally Posted by zcarbon
(Post 1586763846)
:DAnother nine second club bromance seeker:yesnod:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ps889d5dcc.jpg :cheers: DH |
Originally Posted by Dirty Howie
(Post 1586763653)
Some would rather trust an honest man who puts his business on the line with what he recommends. Many would not trust GM as much. GM has a record of screwing us ZO6 owners not too mention past and recent debacles where their customers are killed. Richard on the other hand does not have any such horrible history.
:cheers: DH Long standing multi-million dollar companies are never wrong. You know I look at some of the ramblings with the laughing emoticons, and I know that I'm either looking at a feeble attempt at ridicule, which of course won't work and is the sign of a desperate attempt to stake a position by getting others to jump on the bandwagon. An attempt at bandwagon effect, or if I'm looking at a case of pseudobulbar effect. But either way, an attempt at bandwagon effect, or a genuine case of pseudobulbar effect I don't let that detract from my question as to how one knows which professional is right? |
Originally Posted by Mark2009
(Post 1586762487)
It is interesting, but sadly it is wrong.
The whole concept of a sodium filled valve is to move heat further up the length of the stem, away from the head of the valve. The quote above has it exactly backwards... in fact, the solid stem valve will let heat concentrate near the head. I would be wary about taking valve selection advice from someone who got such a basic concept so completely wrong. Following graphic from Manley, regarding heat distribution on a hollow sodium valve versus a solid titanium valve: |
Originally Posted by Dirty Howie
(Post 1586763840)
But not GM and its engineers, right :lol:
:cheers: DH How about you stick to the facts rather than sensationalism. |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586764639)
You have proof of an engineering problem? Im all ears.
How about you stick to the facts rather than sensationalism. "Even the most brilliant minds of our time have had their theories proven wrong in time." :cheers: DH |
Originally Posted by Dirty Howie
(Post 1586764833)
Really??? Maybe you should go back and edit your post if you don't believe what you wrote:
"Even the most brilliant minds of our time have had their theories proven wrong in time." :cheers: DH So in demonstration of your superior engineering, you pulled the windshield from your car towing it off the track! |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586764639)
You have proof of an engineering problem? Im all ears.
How about you stick to the facts rather than sensationalism. |
Originally Posted by ramairws6
(Post 1586762312)
As stated, intake valves have failed because of poor stem quality and or finish from the factory in turn wears the guide. Which again, is a issue right from the factory. Can we say pure quality control issues!? Even the almighty Katech changes these out in their build while Richard tumble polishes them.
You really "have no clue". |
Originally Posted by Dirty Howie
(Post 1586763822)
Glad to see that you acknowledge the SS valve is safer to use :thumbs:
:cheers: DH Cheers, Paul. |
Originally Posted by JWingo
(Post 1586765500)
:crazy2:
So in demonstration of your superior engineering, you pulled the windshield from your car towing it off the track! BTW: My windshield had 140K miles and almost 6 years of track day. You could barely see out of it. Now I have a new one and a tow hook as well. I guess that makes me a superior engineer now :yes nod: :cheers: DH |
Originally Posted by MTIRC6Z
(Post 1586765527)
I was being very generous, but I guess IF your guides are completely shot there's a slim possibility the SS valve might be safer assuming PTV contact or any of a number of other issues don't bite you in the a$$. That said, if a cylinder head expert NEEDS such a crutch why on earth would you let him work on your sh*t to begin with? He's basically putting a substandard part in your engine because he can't figure out what the source of the problem is...not exactly confidence inspiring to me, but if you're okay with it, good for you, I just happen to have a higher standard :thumbs:
Cheers, Paul. :cheers: DH |
Soooo anyway.... is American Heritage the only place to get the Ferrea hollow stemmers?
|
Originally Posted by Rock36
(Post 1586765914)
Soooo anyway.... is American Heritage the only place to get the Ferrea hollow stemmers?
|
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586765967)
I have seen in here that both Carlos at Vette Air, and WCCH offer them if that's what the owner wants.
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I replaced everything in my heads with ferrea parts .
Both valves , retainers , dual springs and guides with yella terra shaft mounted rockers . I race the hell out of my car and shift at 7500 and have not had a problem with any of the Ferrea stuff . |
Originally Posted by zoomz
(Post 1586766068)
I replaced everything in my heads with ferrea parts .
Both valves , retainers , dual springs and guides with yella terra shaft mounted rockers . I race the hell out of my car and shift at 7500 and have not had a problem with any of the Ferrea stuff . Where do you race :rock: :cheers: DH |
For all who are interested, here is the entire quote from Richard@WCCH.... I think it's interesting stuff! Quote: We have definitely seen excessive wear in some LS7 exhaust guides. Mostly coming from engines with over 30k on the clock. We have seen some heads show inconsistent wear requiring only one or two guides needing replacement. Quick, if all of these heads are getting fixed that the vendors claim they are fixing, maybe we can ask them to collect failure info on each head they redo, something simple like guide wear measurements, and visual remarks, like coking on cyl 2-5 exh. Then we can see if there is a correlation with bad guides and dropped valves (cause they probably get those heads too). |
Originally Posted by Dirty Howie
(Post 1586766229)
Solid or hollow exhaust valves? 7500rpm ……. I thought the motor is supposed to imp load ????
Where do you race :rock: :cheers: DH Hollow stem from the first batch produced . |
Originally Posted by QKSLVRZ
(Post 1586767944)
If the wear is inconsistent, and due to heat, I would want to start x-raying exhaust valves coming out of heads with a few bad cylinders, to see it they have different amounts of sodium in them. If it's a water jacket issue not getting enough water to the guide, it shouldn't move.
Quick, if all of these heads are getting fixed that the vendors claim they are fixing, maybe we can ask them to collect failure info on each head they redo, something simple like guide wear measurements, and visual remarks, like coking on cyl 2-5 exh. Then we can see if there is a correlation with bad guides and dropped valves (cause they probably get those heads too). Not much more than that though, and not all even do that. Not all measure at different locations within the guide, and even then, there was a thread in here inducating that doing that was time consuming. So I don't know if we will get much more information regarding what you speak of than what we routinely get. Worth a try though, but as with anything, time is money, and nothing is free. |
Originally Posted by QKSLVRZ
(Post 1586767944)
If the wear is inconsistent, and due to heat, I would want to start x-raying exhaust valves coming out of heads with a few bad cylinders, to see it they have different amounts of sodium in them. If it's a water jacket issue not getting enough water to the guide, it shouldn't move.
Quick, if all of these heads are getting fixed that the vendors claim they are fixing, maybe we can ask them to collect failure info on each head they redo, something simple like guide wear measurements, and visual remarks, like coking on cyl 2-5 exh. Then we can see if there is a correlation with bad guides and dropped valves (cause they probably get those heads too). Companies like Katech will do extensive and expensive research to further the sport and indirectly their profits. A company like WCCH is simply in the business of slamming the easiest to access parts into old heads at as large a rate as possible, that is their business model, one which does not require research. Cheers, Paul. |
Originally Posted by MTIRC6Z
(Post 1586768386)
The vender is in the business of making as much money as possible, spending time trying to analyse exactly what the problem is will cut into profits and has no upside, particularly when the 'fix' has already be sold over and over again. Why on earth would the vender want to find out what is really happening, there's too much potential of undermining years of selling the established 'fix' :ack:
Companies like Katech will do extensive and expensive research to further the sport and indirectly their profits. A company like WCCH is simply in the business of slamming the easiest to access parts into old heads at as large a rate as possible, that is their business model, one which does not require research. Cheers, Paul. |
Originally Posted by Matt Cyber Z06
(Post 1586769039)
While I agree with most all of what you typed, I don't agree with the part in Bold. Also I'd say it is directly Bashing a well known Company on this forum.
While my opinion of WCCH may seem somewhat harsh I stand by it, but clearly I would have to temper this opinion IF they actually supported the forum. Until such time I will not hold back, the continued misinformation they perpetuate about the OEM valve being the source of the LS7 problems makes this very easy to do. Cheers, Paul. |
Hey All,
I understand the desire to debate, but can we keep the subject on the Ferrea Hollow Stem Valves? I started this thread because I was interested in running with these valves, assumedly everyone reading this thread already has made their mind up on what they wish to do with their engines so I don't think we need to argue over SS vs OEM valves, especially considering this thread isn't even about solid valves. Finally, I did not start this thread to advertise WCCH or any other vendor, as I do not even plan to have my heads done there. So please, let's not debate wether this thread is allowing WWCH to rip off this forum, etc. Thanks for all the input from everyone, Joshua |
Originally Posted by fendersceptre
(Post 1586769619)
Hey All,
I understand the desire to debate, but can we keep the subject on the Ferrea Hollow Stem Valves? [...] Like all LS7 exhaust valves I've seen personally, I'd suggest having the tips of the stems polished unless there is some engineering reason not to (the part that interfaces with the rocker tip). |
My issue with these Ferrea valves is that they are unproven in this application. Nobody really knows how they are going to pan out in the long run. They are lacking the NaK filling, that most hollow stemmed exhaust valves have. Will this make the valve heads run too hot in some applications? Who knows.
The problem here is, you're trading validated stock valves (the stock valves were run over hundreds of hours at WOT on a dyno at GM) for these Ferrea ones that were not. Anytime you introduce something new into the mix, you add uncontrolled variables. You could end up making things worse, not necessarily better. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't use these valves, or that they are bad...but these are factors that you need to take into consideration. Really, NOBODY knows for sure that there is anything wrong with the stock valves. 2-3 guys will tell you all day that there is, but they have no factual evidence to back this up. The evidence of failures isn't evidence of bad valves. Too many assumptions have been made, and some common sense has been disregarded, in an effort to force opinions on others. These guys wouldn't make it as CSIs. Good luck with your decision. I know it's not an easy one to make, in light of everything. |
Originally Posted by MyLS1Hauls
(Post 1586770102)
My issue with these Ferrea valves is that they are unproven in this application. Nobody really knows how they are going to pan out in the long run. They are lacking the NaK filling, that most hollow stemmed exhaust valves have. Will this make the valve heads run too hot in some applications? Who knows.
The problem here is, you're trading validated stock valves (the stock valves were run over hundreds of hours at WOT on a dyno at GM) for these Ferrea ones that were not. Anytime you introduce something new into the mix, you add uncontrolled variables. You could end up making things worse, not necessarily better. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't use these valves, or that they are bad...but these are factors that you need to take into consideration. Really, NOBODY knows for sure that there is anything wrong with the stock valves. 2-3 guys will tell you all day that there is, but they have no factual evidence to back this up. The evidence of failures isn't evidence of bad valves. Too many assumptions have been made, and some common sense has been disregarded, in an effort to force opinions on others. These guys wouldn't make it as CSIs. Good luck with your decision. I know it's not an easy one to make, in light of everything. |
Just a thought I've had for a long time - seems Katech does alot with GM, whether it's support, R&D or whatever - right or wrong, this relationship would end quickly if they cut up their geometry, hollow Ti valves or anything else on the engineering side - def'ly wouldn't be a smart move. Not a knock towards Katech at all, they do some amazing work but just saying, business is first.
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Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586766008)
I have seen in here that both Carlos at Vette Air, and WCCH will accommodate owners if that's what the owner wants.
|
Anyone know if GM has changed the PN for valves from the earlier years through to the current LS7?
|
Originally Posted by QKSLVRZ
(Post 1586771659)
Anyone know if GM has changed the PN for valves from the earlier years through to the current LS7?
They did, yes. |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586771736)
They did, yes.
|
It's what I am using in my build. I hope to have the heads back and the car on the road by this weekend *Crosses fingers* Heads were supposed to have shipped out Friday or today for installation (I live on the East Coast so who knows. It may just be wishful thinking)
|
Originally Posted by QKSLVRZ
(Post 1586771815)
Do you perchance know what years they changed? That would be a good way to rough out when GM changed them, either addressing some weakness, process/coating changes, or cost reduction program.
|
Originally Posted by MTIRC6Z
(Post 1586768386)
The vender is in the business of making as much money as possible, spending time trying to analyse exactly what the problem is will cut into profits and has no upside, particularly when the 'fix' has already be sold over and over again. Why on earth would the vender want to find out what is really happening, there's too much potential of undermining years of selling the established 'fix' :ack:
Companies like Katech will do extensive and expensive research to further the sport and indirectly their profits. A company like WCCH is simply in the business of slamming the easiest to access parts into old heads at as large a rate as possible, that is their business model, one which does not require research. Cheers, Paul. |
Originally Posted by vertC6
(Post 1586772428)
What do you think would happen to WCCH's reputation and Richard's business in general if he was just "slamming in cheap parts"?? He would have a lot of failures, a lot of pissed off customers, and he would be out of business. :crazy2:
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Originally Posted by ramairws6
(Post 1586772875)
:iagree: I guess the naysayers think he's rolling the dice. I disagree just for the fact that this whole situation could and would put him out of business if he was wrong. :yesnod:
Now look at a company like Katech and what they recommend. They know their cars are going to be track driven and hard. THEY would be in trouble and their reputation hurt badly if their builds were letting go. Neither of which is happening. This mod is for the masses. Masses who probably wouldn't have failed anyhow on the stock parts WITH guide wear because they put 2K miles a year on theirs cars and it will never see the track or be driven hard. Look at the stats.... Look at where the failures happen. Look at how many stock daily driven garage queens have failed compared to the others. |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586772997)
No it wouldn't. He knows most if not all these cars are barely driven. Take Quick for example. The biggest proponent and salesmen of this mod. 2K miles in 2 years. At that rate Richard will have retired to the Bahamas long before it lets go.
Now look at a company like Katech and what they recommend. They know their cars are going to be track drive and hard. THEY would be in trouble and their reputation hurt badly if their builds were letting go. Neither of which is happening. This mod is for the masses. Masses who probably wouldn't have failed anyhow on the stock parts WITH guide wear because they put 2K miles a year on theirs cars and it will never see the track or drive them hard. Look at the stats.... Look at where the failures happen. Look at how many stock daily driven garage queens have failed compared to the others. How many total. Post up a pic of the odometer as I have. Oh, and BTW, I don't know where you get your 2K miles figure in 2 years, but it's not quite accurate. Maybe you can point to where you are arriving at that figure. Some of you have tried this tactic before. Pretty soon you will have me down to 500 miles in 2 years. :rofl: At any rate, there are several others out there, who have considerably more miles than I do, and so I have to agree with the others. If he were just throwing together junk, well then certainly there would have been failures reported by now. I'll be waiting for the odometer pics from 2012 until now for comparison to see how many miles you've driven in 2 years, because I don't believe that you have much more, if any more miles over the same period than does 'ol Quick. |
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586773026)
Out of curiosity, how many miles do you have in the same period of time?
How many total. Post up a pic of the odometer as I have. Oh, and BTW, I don't know where you get your 2K miles figure in 2 years, but it's not quite accurate. At any rate, there are several others out there, who have considerably more miles than I do, and so I have to agree with the others. If he were just throwing together junk, well then certainly there would have been failures reported by now. I'll be waiting for the odometer pics from 2012 until now for comparison, because I don't believe that you have much more, if any more miles over the same period than does 'ol Quick. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...post1586590201 It will be 2 years in August, and I'd have to check the mileage, but it's probably only a few thousand miles. I live in the northeast and the car is not driven in the winter months. |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586773049)
What does my odometer have anything to do with you pushing a product and it being solid BY YOU as reliable when you barely drive or track the car you put it in?
How can you say that the stock valves are "reliable" when you might not have much more use over the same time frame as I have. How many miles have you put on your car which runs the stock valves which you tell us are so reliable? Post up an odometer pic. :D Have you put even 10,000 miles on that car yet propain??? :bigears: |
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586773075)
You keep going on with all of this "Quick only has 2,000 miles in 2 years" crap. Show us how many miles you've driven your car in the last 2 years. :lol:
How can you say that the stock valves are "reliable" when you might not have much more use over the same time frame as I have. How many miles have you put on your car which runs the stock valves which you tell us are so reliable? Post up an odometer pic. :D Have you put even 10,000 miles on that car yet propain??? :bigears: My miles are inconsequential as I don't use myself or my car as an example of success. Nice try deflecting though. :thumbs: |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586773110)
My miles are inconsequential as I don't use myself or my car as an example of success. Nice try deflecting though. :thumbs:
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1580820684)
05-15-2012, 12:14 PM Nice pickup then. Thats kinda close to the price I was thinking as well.
I bought my 2008 with 8K miles on it with 3LZ and Nav with 1 year CPO for 48K. :thumbs: You've been going on about how I don't drive mine, making claims that I only drive 1,000 miles a year. Tell us how many miles are currently on your car so that we can see if you have enough miles to stake a position as to if your stock heads are solid. :D No, your miles are indeed inconsequential to this discussion, as are mine. How you elect to use your vehicle, is your business, as is in my own case. You have other vehicles to drive, I have other vehicles to drive. There are several more examples of people out there who have considerably more miles than do you and I combined. If we are using miles driven as a determining factor as to who is or is not entitled to the right of an opinion on this matter, well then several in here would have no right to speak of it. |
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586773176)
How many on it now, 4/28/14??? :bigears:
You've been going on about how I don't drive mine, making claims that I only drive 1,000 miles a year. Tell us how many miles are currently on your car so that we can see if you have enough miles to stake a position as to if your stock heads are solid. :D No, your miles are indeed inconsequential to this discussion, as are mine. How you elect to use your vehicle, is your business, as is in my own case. You have other vehicles to drive, I have other vehicles to drive. There are several more examples of people out there who have considerably more miles than do you and I combined. If we are using miles driven as a determining factor as to who is or is not entitled to the right of an opinion on this matter, well then several in here would have no right to speak of it. Never mind the majority, most likely above 80% of your big list, that you use as a dagger of success, has the same amount of use. Most of those cars have done this mod less than 6 months ago. But yes... Then we have Howie... the guy with the biggest amount of track miles on his car known to this forum on this mod... What did he get up to before he rebuilt his heads? 20K miles? Hmmmm... wonder why those heads got rebuilt. :D |
Originally Posted by vertC6
(Post 1586772428)
What do you think would happen to WCCH's reputation and Richard's business in general if he was just "slamming in cheap parts"?? He would have a lot of failures, a lot of pissed off customers, and he would be out of business. :crazy2:
A set of LS7 Rev exhaust valves run about $130. A similar set of Ferrea or Manleys run about $260. A set of the high end Manleys (Inconel, I suppose) run well over $400. Interesting that those who champion a stronger valve don't run the Inconels (ultimately the strongest, but also the costliest). It's quite possible that the $130 valves are just as good for standard LS7 use as the $260 valves. For reference, the GM OEM exhaust valves are about $280 a set. The reason they are welded is that they are two different alloys -- the head is one alloy, the stem another. I don't know why, but I'm sure there is a good reason for it. The Ferrea semi-hollow valves the OP was asking about <ahem> are also about $280 a set. None of those prices are retail. |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586772997)
No it wouldn't. He knows most if not all these cars are barely driven. Take Quick for example. The biggest proponent and salesmen of this mod. 2K miles in 2 years. At that rate Richard will have retired to the Bahamas long before it lets go.
Now look at a company like Katech and what they recommend. They know their cars are going to be track driven and hard. THEY would be in trouble and their reputation hurt badly if their builds were letting go. Neither of which is happening. This mod is for the masses. Masses who probably wouldn't have failed anyhow on the stock parts WITH guide wear because they put 2K miles a year on theirs cars and it will never see the track or be driven hard. Look at the stats.... Look at where the failures happen. Look at how many stock daily driven garage queens have failed compared to the others. |
Wrong thread dude. Ask the mods to move your post here: How Many Z06 Owners Are Running Solid Stainless Exhaust Valves?
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Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586773256)
You childishly asking over and over again wont make it any more consequential. However, you being the biggest loudmouth on this forum for this mod while not even driving or risking his car while using it at all. I find that info just priceless..
Never mind the majority most likely above 80% of your big list that you use as a dagger of success has the same amount of use. Most of those cars have done this mod less than 6 months ago. But yes... Then we have Howie... the guy with the biggest amount of track miles on his car known to this forum on this mod... What did he get up to before he rebuilt his heads? 20K miles? Hmmmm... wonder why those heads got rebuilt. :D You won't even "tell" us how many miles you have put on that car. So if we're talking about "miles" and you don't have many more miles than I have over the same period of time, and that's even IF you have the same number of miles as I have over the same period of time, well then how can you vouch for the stock valves, and at the same time blame me for vouching for my heads? :lol: The truth is, you don't have very many miles on that car, I don't believe you've put 10K miles on it, and probably not even 5K at this point, here but you are in here pointing the finger at others.
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586772997)
No it wouldn't. He knows most if not all these cars are barely driven. Take Quick for example. The biggest proponent and salesmen of this mod. 2K miles in 2 years. At that rate Richard will have retired to the Bahamas long before it lets go.
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1580820684)
05-15-2012, 12:14 PM Nice pickup then. Thats kinda close to the price I was thinking as well.
I bought my 2008 with 8K miles on it with 3LZ and Nav with 1 year CPO for 48K. :thumbs: |
Originally Posted by ramairws6
(Post 1586773284)
Hahaha! Really!? My heads have been done and run thru the 1/4 mile traps at 7400 rpm too many times to count. I spay a 200 shot of nitrous 75% of the time. I hot lapped twice now, once 33 times and once 26 times! Do you know what hot lapping means?! Do you realize how many miles worth of abuse a 1/4 mile will add to an engine, not too mention the thousands of other street driven miles this thing sees. The heads have been off 5 times with everytime being just refreshed and added to a new build. Guides have been perfect everytime. This a true testament! :yesnod:
No, I have no idea what racing is... is that when you push the pedal on the right all the way to the floor? Noooo... Im way to scared to do anything like that. :rofl: Your refreshing your heads.... how do you know they will last? Awesome.. the guides are in spec... that takes care of one problem... that doesn't mean everything is cured or that it wouldn't have issues down the road. Obviously you know this since you constantly and consistently refresh them. |
Originally Posted by Mark2009
(Post 1586773309)
Wrong thread dude. Ask the mods to move your post here: How Many Z06 Owners Are Running Solid Stainless Exhaust Valves?
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Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586773315)
I guess though that you being the biggest loudmouth about everybody else's miles, while making no indication of your own, is also "priceless." :lol:
You won't even "tell" us how many miles you have put on that car. So if we're talking about "miles" and you don't have many more miles than I have over the same period of time, and that's even IF you have the same number of miles as I have over the same period of time, well then how can you vouch for the stock valves, and at the same time blame me for vouching for my WCCH heads? :lol: The self proclaimed poster boy for WCCH has 2K miles on his build... Aside from that he said nothing was wrong with the stock valves or the LS7 less than 2 years ago... yeah.... let me listen to him.. Too funny.. :rofl: |
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...post1586590201[/QUOTE]
And didn't you come back in response and say:
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586590414)
You are not alone. I have only put a few thousand miles on mine as well in the past few years.
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586773404)
Again, the miles on my car are completely inconsequential as I don't use it as an example of success. What would my miles add to the discussion?
The self proclaimed poster boy for WCCH has 2K miles on his build... Aside from that he said nothing was wrong with the stock valves or the LS7 less than 2 years ago... yeah.... let me listen to him.. Too funny.. :rofl: But the truth is, you don't have many miles on the stock heads, and are thus in no position to personally vouch for them and their "longevity", but here you are trying to convince everyone that they are A OK. :rofl: :lol: Show us how many miles on the stock heads you have, and then we might listen to you when you try and tell us that they are OK. :lol: |
Originally Posted by '06 Quicksilver Z06
(Post 1586773462)
Keep saying "2K" and who knows, it might just come true.:lol: My odometer might start rolling back.:lol:
But the truth is, you don't have many miles on the stock heads, and are thus in no position to personally vouch for them and their "longevity", but here you are trying to convince everyone that they are A OK. :rofl: :lol: Show us how many miles on the stock heads you have, and then we might listen to you when you try and tell us that they are OK. :lol: You have little to no miles on your little build. Nuff said... My miles are inconsequential to this conversation because I dont use my build as an example of success. I am not a forum loudmouth selling a product for another company incessantly. The same guy who used the same amount of energy less than 2 years saying there was nothing wrong. I wonder what the next 2 years will bring as your proven wrong again... ooopsss you already have been. You're a joke. I have nothing more to say so have the last word. Your on ignore anyhow. The only reason I see your posts and your GF is that ignore only works when im logged in. :thumbs: |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586772997)
No it wouldn't. He knows most if not all these cars are barely driven. Take Quick for example. The biggest proponent and salesmen of this mod. 2K miles in 2 years. At that rate Richard will have retired to the Bahamas long before it lets go. Now look at a company like Katech and what they recommend. They know their cars are going to be track driven and hard. THEY would be in trouble and their reputation hurt badly if their builds were letting go. Neither of which is happening. This mod is for the masses. Masses who probably wouldn't have failed anyhow on the stock parts WITH guide wear because they put 2K miles a year on theirs cars and it will never see the track or be driven hard. Look at the stats.... Look at where the failures happen. Look at how many stock daily driven garage queens have failed compared to the others.
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Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586773532)
You have little to no miles on your little build. Nuff said...
My miles are inconsequential to this conversation because I dont use my build as an example of success. I am not a forum loudmouth selling a product for another company incessantly. The same guy who used the same amount of energy less than 2 years saying there was nothing wrong. I wonder what the next 2 years will bring as your proven wrong again... ooopsss you already have been. You're a joke. I have nothing more to say so have the last word. Your on ignore anyhow. The only reason I see your posts and your GF is that ignore only works when im logged in. :thumbs: No, this "miles" tactic of yours has failed. Nuff said. :D And the reason why it failed, is because we both know that you very likely have not even put as many miles on your stock heads as I have put on my built heads. And if you do have more, well then it's not going to be many more. You've been going on about how good the stock heads are. Show us how many miles you have on the stock heads, so that we can determine if you are personally in a position to tell us how good they are. :D Because here you are, attempting to criticize my position on the basis that I don't have "enough" miles to make a determination as to the stoutness of my heads. Well if that is true, and you don't have many more, if any more miles on the stock heads, well then how are you in a position to vouch as to the stoutness of the stock heads? :D :lol: |
Originally Posted by vertC6
(Post 1586773575)
Would you like me to send you pictures of the Katech motors that dropped valves destroy the motors?
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Originally Posted by vertC6
(Post 1586773575)
Would you like me to send you pictures of the Katech motors that dropped valves destroy the motors?
I bet if they existed they weren't garage queens like Quick's car. :rofl: |
Originally Posted by propain
(Post 1586773967)
Sure, send them to me please or post them here. :thumbs:
I bet if they existed they weren't garage queens like Quick's car. :rofl: How many miles on it now?? :D |
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