gbarmore

I'[ll keep this to the facts because I'm pretty angry and sick to my stomach.... I go to pick up my car from the painter after 9 months of it sitting there, and it's awesome, it's glass smooth, polished to a mirror finish, and the perfect color, it's absolutely gorgeous, EXCEPT FOR ALL THE TRASH IN THE PAINT!! What the Hell??

The story is, while laying the color on the car, there was a bug 'hatch' and tons of them landed in the paint. Instead of quitting and cutting his losses, the painter kept going thinking he could get them out and make it the show quality paint job that I am paying for. So, he laid down 5 coats of color, 2 coats of candy, and 4 coats of clear, forever entombing the trash at the very base level of the paint. Obviously you cannot buff that out, but he said he tried to 'bury' it. I'm no painter, but even I could have told him that wasn't going to work. He actually spent 40 hours wet sanding, cutting, and buffing it to a beautiful finish, only to have me tell him it's a total do-over. To be clear, this guy is a good painter and I chose him because of the previous work I have seen him do in person, he just make a really bad decision on this one.

That brings me to my question, what is the RIGHT way to do this over? He told me he can scuff the whole car and simply re-paint it starting with a white base and laying down the color, candy, clear like before. My concern is that is a lot of material on the car and how will that affect it long term, and I am worried about the lines getting 'muddy' from all that mil thickness. He said he will cut the lines nice and tight and that it will actually look better than it did the first time, but I am not convinced.

I'm looking for opinions from experienced painters as to what to do next / best practices in this situation, and what if anything I need to be concerned about given what he has proposed as the solution. Please don't reply if you feel like bashing the painter, that's just counter productive and I need to move past that.

Thanks and here's a couple of pictures that show what he did.
http://1drv.ms/1yc4gfO
http://1drv.ms/1yc4FPF

porchdog

had he simply stopped and waited for the base to dry the sand out the bugs and start over it would have been fine. trying to hide something with candy is not even considered right. sadly there is a lot of mil thickness there already. to pile another job on top is really asking for major problems down the road. sucks for him but he should have stopped. why were there so many bugs in his booth is the question .

gbarmore

He doesn't have a booth, he paints in his shop and has an evac system set-up and curtains around the area. However, I happened to stop by while he was in the process of painting the car and the front door was wide open and there is no screen on it which is probably why the bugs got pulled right in. What kind of issues might I expect to have with basically 2 paint jobs on the car? I asked him about renting a booth to paint the car but I have not heard back from him. Anyone know what kind of fee I could expect to pay for a one day booth rental? I'm in Wisconsin.....

porchdog

no telling . there are numerous problems that can happen. i do not even attempt a repaint any more. with all the fresh solvents there already it can go south quickly in the first summer out in the sun . that is when it will happen . sorry for your trouble but painting without a booth is not good. especially if you work late.

DUB

Paint booth rental company:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/pain...int-booth.html

Now...I am not going to beat this painter up...but he should KNOW that you just can not bury insects in paint and expect that some BAD outcome can occur from it.

I agree with 'porchdog' 100%. He should have stopped and allow the base to flash and sand the insects out. And then re-figure out the problem and make sure the bugs can not fly into his paint job.

In my honest opinion....and understand that I do not have a 'crystal ball'....but he really screwed himself by finishing out the paint job....and covering the bugs with material...like that was going to be OK.....which it is NOT OK. These 'bugs'...that have moisture in them....when they get hot...can expand....can cause bubbles where they are located.

I WOULD not repaint the car....for one....the amount of material for a candy job is excessive compared to a 'normal' basecoat/clearcoat paint job. So right now...you basically have easily 1-1/2 paint jobs now...and that all depends on the candy he used and how many coats of it he applied....so you can have basically 2 paint jobs now. I have shot many candy paint jobs and I can tell you the 'game' is completely different when I paint one of them versus painting a normal basecoat/clearcoat job.

I have enough experience that I know I would not even attempt a candy paint job in nothing less than an approved paint booth. The job takes too long so too much time for 'problems' to occur. And if for some odd reason I had a total 'brain fart' and lost all sense of reality, integrity, professionalism and RESPECT for my reputation and painted a candy job for someone in an unfilterd environment....and I got bugs 'out the wazoo' in it...and just kept painting it.....and then sanded and buffed it like it was OK...and the customer complained...(AS YOU SHOULD)....I would have to STRIP it all off (clear) and sand the base and do it again. Remember... I run a shop...and I have INTEGRITY.

ALSO.....not that I care to know....because it is NONE of my business to know....but if this guy painted it for you on the REALLY CHEAP....what do you expect???....especially if he is not a professional business....and was doing it on the side.

One thing for all of those of you who are not going to paint your own car...and you find someone who will do it and 'they' are not a legitimate business. And the price is REALLY GOOD in comparison to paint and body shops around your area. Just keep this in mind. When 'people' who paint cars on the side....cut prices to get the job for a particular car at a normal market value for the CORRECT amount of time and effort that is required to do a paint job CORRECTLY. You can not expect that the job will be the same as one from a professional. I know there are certain people who can do it...because I was ONE of them. These 'people' can often times 'cut and run' and leave you holding the bag.

I know it really SUCKS.....so either give it time and let it cure and live with it...or get this guy to use a heat gun carefully and peel off the clear and sand the base and re-base it and finish it out. I have had paint issues that required be to strip and do the job again. I can tell you from first hand experience...it REALLY SUCKS...but that is why ALL (hopefully ALL) really experienced painters WILL STOP if they start to encounter a problem so the amount of time to repair it is not compounded due to they kept applying product and made the repair larger or worsened it.

gbarmore

DUB, thank you for the thorough reply, it is greatly appreciated and will help me gather my thoughts before I talk with the painter about how we resolve this. Bottom line is that I am not going to accept what he has done as acceptable and move on. I have invested heavily in this build, and I did not hire a "side-jobber" painter at a discounted rate. I may have paid slightly less than a 'restoration' shop would charge, but slightly is the key word, I checked around and he was average in cost. He panicked and made several very bad decisions that compounded his investment, that is not my problem or my fault. I only became aware of the issue the day before I was supposed to pick up the finished car. He is a professional painter, knows better, and has talked a lot with me about how "other guys" perform work that isn't legit. No excuses for him..... Any of you out there that have put a couple of years of sweat and tears into a restoration to make it stand out from the rest like I have, can appreciate how I must have felt when realizing that the only part 'normal' people will see, was fouled up......

Thanks again for your thoughts Dub and Porchdog. I'll eventually post pics of the car done right if I get that far.....

DUB

I TRULY hope you get this resolved. I MEAN THAT SINCERELY!!!!

He should have known better...and that is what has got me SO pissed off about this. With him having EXPERIENCE...should have commanded him to make the CORRECT choices in where and when to paint it and settle for nothing less than the best to show off his talents.

If he is charging you close to the 'normal price'...and thus NOT using a filter approved paint booth. For me....this is the first bad decision he made. If he does not have an approved booth...and knew he was not going to have one at the time of painting...he could have rented one on his dime....or made what he shot in MUCH better. Some times it is about the money and how much can I make...and then ...sometimes that can come back and 'bite you' and cost you all you 'thought' you were going to make.

DUB

porchdog

my bet is he was shooting at night. i wont chance that even with a booth . sad to hear. i feel for both of you. he will loose big time on this but it was his own doing .
one of the reasons those who do it for a living are so diligent in our methods. one mistake and the profit on several jobs is gone. that is why we are slow to try new products and avoid old technology materials. using materials from the 70 or 80's is just asking for it.
like dub i hope this all goes well for everyone .

DUB

I can not agree more.

DUB

gbarmore

Losing all the profit on the job, and knowing that is happening while he continued to work in the car, is why it makes it so hard for me to understand why he did what he did given his profession and the work I have seen him do. Everyone has a bad day I guess, but for him it probably turned into another bad 120 + hours......

So I met with him and he has agreed to take the clear off all the way down to the color and get all the trash out of the paint. He'll then spray the white base, color, candy, then clear, cut, buff, and polish. He is not going to rent a booth, even though I offered to pay for it myself, but instead has agreed that he will take further precautions to avoid the same issues happening again. Not sure I am comfortable with this yet, but he is going to sign an agreement that i'm writing up stating what had happened, what was / is expected, and a warranty on the paint from defects in workmanship for a period of time. My question then is, what is a reasonable amount of time to ask him to warrant this paint job? Is it reasonable to assume that if it lasts 3 years in summer sun and winter cold (stored in an insulated garage, but I live in Wisconsin), that I should be relatively safe from peeling, bubbling, cracking, etc? Is that something any painter would commit to or could it / should it be longer or shorter? Not looking for him to protect me from chips and scratches of course, just 'defects' caused by workmanship issues. He is absolutely committed to doing this right, and understands that this car will be in many shows and that his name will be on the paint. With the exception of him turning down my offer to rent a paint booth, (which I don't understand at all, and probably should demand that he do), I am comfortable with how he is approaching the repair / repaint.

Thoughts?

rogman16

Greg--

Sorry to hear about your struggles... If me, I would mandate the paint booth... If the painter wants to get it right, we would he not want to use a professional booth that you are going to pay for...

Rogman

gbarmore

Hey Rogman, great to hear from you! That is a great question and one I keep asking myself. They guy has never come across as the 'too proud to be wrong' type, but this is just weird to me too. If something goes wrong again he is liable for cost and labor to fix it again, and that will be in writing. I certainly would not risk it again if I were him, and frankly, I want my car back, not in the shop for a 3rd try at paint.

I'm not sure where things sit with your project at this point, but I hope all is going well with you and your family with the move. I can't wait to see pics of it completed. You did an amazing job on that build and the final pics I saw of the paint you laid down were just as amazing as the rest.

Take care!

DUB

"Thoughts?"

You asked...here they are.

First off...depending on what paint system you have chosen (PPG, SEM, House of Kolor, etc). I would call that manufacturer and ask them what they offer for a warranty. NOW...some paint companies (PPG,SEM, House of Kolor, DuPont, Sherwin-Williams, etc) will offer a really good warranty on paint if the person shooting it has gone through the training program and is 'certified'...and ALL procedures from bare substrate to the last layer of clear have been applied as intended.

Was you car stripped down to bare fiberglass/SMC??? If it was ...very good...and hopefully really good primers and fillers were used prior to painting. BECAUSE..as you know...or hopefully know by now. A paint job is ONLY as good as its foundation.

Knowing that you are doing a candy paint job or a tri-stage style paint job...asa it is called today. You do know that you are adding a lot of material that we have already discussed in past posts...which is why it is getting the clear removed.

I would also be somewhat concerned on how much of the candy color is going to be removed and expose as much of the white base as possible....so minimal coats of white are needed to achieve true color and then the candy can be applied. INSTEAD of scuff sanding the blue candy and then plowing more white base on it and then applying candy on that again. More paint, more solvents, more potential issues. I get concerned about excessive mil thickness. I know it is going to be thick....but there is to a point where allowing it to 'get out of hand' can cause for a problem in time.

If I had to do this...I would take off almost all the blue...and leave the white. Allow it to dry for a few days....even if I had to use my infra-red heaters on it. That surely can not hurt allowing the solvents in the initial white base layer to get out.

Now...here is where my head is spinning like a top. WHY would he NOT take you up on an offer to provide him with a proper painting facility so NO problems can occur due to improper ventilation and filtration. I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!!!!! I think that he is a glutton for punishment. He is opening himself up for another round of problems. Completely inappropriate and unprofessional behavior if you ask me. And who will pay for it in regards to loss of use of the vehicle and other things that I am sure can be though of...is YOU. Having this happen ONCE is bad enough...but having it happen TWICE when it could/can be avoided is totally UNACCEPTABLE. Not writing that just because it is in an approved paint booth that it will go perfect....cause problems can still occur...but at least using an approved booth increases the chances that outside influences do not effect what it being sprayed. And that is assuming that he is wearing proper clothing and taking the precautions to prevent trash from getting into the paint from the car itself...where PROPER prepping/washing procedures are PARAMOUNT.

AS for a warranty....I have specific requirements that a customer must follow. And I will not get into this. But ...I...myself would stand behind my work AS LONG AS I FEEL that you are actually taking the steps to maintain and preserve my work. If you neglect it and allow bird crap to be on it when you stop by...how and the heck can you expect me to give a crap ...( no pun intended)...IF you don't care enough about it.

I would see what the paint company says...and go from there. 3-5 years is not unrealistic...but subjective. NOT for me to decide for you both. And not meaning to get any more involved....BUT...IF paint warranty was not discussed in detail at the very beginning...which can effect price....because it is much like an insurance policy on the workmanship in some peoples mind.... I would have a hard time entertaining this NOW (if it were me)....when the only issue as it seems was trash and bugs in the paint. But doing this as long as I have...the matter about paint warranty is CLEARLY outlined before I even have the car in the shop...along with other concerns..

DUB

porchdog

one thing to remember , if this fella is taking care of it he is a stand up guy. he knows he is loosing money . basically doing a paint job free even if it's his fault. when it is all said and done if it's right he deserves a pat on the back. most side job painters will cut and run .

DUB

I really hope this goes well without any more 'hiccups'.

DUB

gbarmore

DUB and Porchdog, again thank you both for your thoughts, ideas, and perspective. I think my painter is a stand-up guy, but I do worry about his lack of concern for something like this happening again. I am going to revisit the topic of finishing this job in a booth as I have no interest in going through this again, and nor should he. I will talk to him about getting down to the white base and building up from there.

BTW, the paint is HOK, and I had taken the car down to bare fiberglass before taking it to get the final body work and paint done.

Have a great weekend guys!

Greg

DUB

Glad to read this...you should have a nice job for a long time due to removing all the old paint, primer and 'whatever'.

DUB