My car was painted about 15 years ago and just pushed into the garage. Has not seen sunlight until I pulled it out to do a body lift. Paint was fine until then! BUT in the short time it was outside lifting the body these bubbles appeared, mainly on the back end.....like a friggen rash!
I would have thought 12 - 15 years would have been long enough for the paint to fully cure and not have this happen. What needs to be done to fix this? I am guessing the painter used base clear. Is the problem in the base or in the clear? Can just the affected areas be repaired or do I need to do a repaint? Can it be sealed and painted....I am grasping for straws here, or a lifeline.
You may want a bit of sedation before you read this. I can't say what killed the paint, but my opinion from viewing the photos is something (water; undercoating; oil???) bled into the basecoats from inside the body, and only blistered when warmed in the sun. My 1977s original paint and primer are blistered like that and required a bare glass strip. Please get a local opinion.... perhaps it's not as bad as it appears.
Look on the underisde of the area that is effected by these "bubbles". It all depends on what type of product that as used (if any)to make sure that the fiberglass would not allow this blistering...which can be due to oil, water and any other foreign substance that can be allowed to stay on then panel long enough and allowed to seep into the fiberglass....like markids77 mentioned.
Do you cover your car when it is in the garage...and if so...what type of cover?
DO you have a moisture/condensation issue in your garage?
Has it EVER been allowed to be out in the sun...until that "fateful" day? If not...then it may all boil down to the material that was used to "seal" the fiberglass to prevent this type of problem.
It does not look good..(repair wise) .because I do restoration for a living on Corvettes. And this problem WILL NOT go away...if it allowed to be in the sun.
IT may have to do with what type of paint was used...but I feel more like it should have been gelcoated...which I know will get a flurry of comments about that. Some like it...some do not. But trust me....I do not have any issue with this type of problem when restoring a press molded fiberglass car....and applying gelcoat to it. 20 mils minimum. Some like "other" products...but I have to WARRANTY my work....and like many others who use "other" products who have to warranty their work...and have had no problems...you will get a mixed response. BUT BOTTOM LINE...this problem will not go away with repair/repainting...if those are ACTUAL bubbles IN the finish and not water droplets on the exterior. They look like they are in the paint...so my heart goes out to you...and sorry for being a bearer of bad news....but it is what I can see in your photo's. IT IS REALLY HEART BREAKING! I HATE it for you. Hopefully the shop that did it WARRANTIES their work.
I saw a '73 Corvette do that a few years back. They used paint stripper to remove the finish.I don't know what kind they used, but it must had soaked in the glass or they did a poor job of cleaning the panels. After it was painted and reassembled there was no sign of blistering until it was moved out into the Sun. It was mostly on the top panels.
Wish there was good New's for you.What a heart breaker.
I have also seen this caused by stripper in the fibers, and a rather wet environment, which is likely in FL. Dub, Getting a warranty after 15 years, is going to be a little tough.
Look on the underisde of the area that is effected by these "bubbles".
Under was dirty but dry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUB
Do you cover your car when it is in the garage...and if so...what type of cover?
DO you have a moisture/condensation issue in your garage?
No cover, and it is temp and humidity controlled at 55% RH max (except when we had no power due to the hurricanes)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUB
Has it EVER been allowed to be out in the sun...until that "fateful" day? If not...then it may all boil down to the material that was used to "seal" the fiberglass to prevent this type of problem.
Never was until the week of the pull. Now that week we had rain for a day. I did have the car covered with the top of the line breathing cover (mustard like color with little pin holes and thick material) from Ecklers. I also covered that with a tarp to make sure it was water resistant from the rain. They both came off the day after the rain. THAT is when I noticed the paint issue!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUB
And this problem WILL NOT go away...if it allowed to be in the sun.
Hopefully the shop that did it WARRANTIES their work.
The car will have to be able to be in the sun when this is resolved, whatever the fix.
The shop is long gone, at least I did not put all the trim back on...
What is all that stuff at the bottom of the doors?
Cardboard sheets, just leaned them against the car for a bit. Garage is running out of room with all the parts for this car all over the place! Gonna be moving most of them out to the shop for the sandblasting and powdercoating process.
First thing to remember is paint will never totally cure inside, may get to 90-93% but tail solvents will not come out until they See UV and you get no UV in a garage.
Here is a list of what will cause something like this to happen anywhere from first day in sun to seven full days in sun, after seven days normally problems like this are eliminated or the problems will get no worse.
Some of the causes listed are only because it never seen sun and may or may not apply to other jobs that were cured out.
*Washing glass with lacquer thinner.
*Not neutralizing paint stripper with water but cleaning it with lacquer *thinner.
* cleaning bare glass with water and or solvent and not letting dry out long enough before applying first coat of primer.
*Lacquer primer, if painted with urethanes.
*Factory lacquer left on car.
Basecoat or sealer trapped solvents (must be extreme) normally will just cause die back or minor pop, even inside.
*Waxing paint before cured outside.
*Covering car with plastic sheathing while stored.
*Covering car with waterproof car cover.
These are the main causes of a problem like yours and can't think of anything else.
Barry
Well, I rode by and the shop that did the paint job is still in business, owner was out when I went in. I am a LITTE calmer now and can probably hold a conversation with him without blowing a gasket. At this point, I don't know what I would want from him or if I would want him to repaint again. I don't think I am going to try and pop or peal a blister until I speak with him. Even this long after the paint job you can tell has not been exposed to the weather except for the lift. It hasn't had a valid plate since before the paint. I feel like I just threw 7 grand right out the window and digging in for more. I'm inclined to try and paint it myself, can't do any worse!
Never was until the week of the pull. Now that week we had rain for a day. I did have the car covered with the top of the line breathing cover (mustard like color with little pin holes and thick material) from Ecklers. I also covered that with a tarp to make sure it was water resistant from the rain. They both came off the day after the rain. THAT is when I noticed the paint issue!
Angelo
Angelo,
I know that you were trying to protect your pride and joy. BUT if you have the top of the line car cover on it of outside use....you should NEVER put anything on top of it that is waterproof. The top is designed to breathe...and yes...it may allow dust to pass through ...but when it is covered with a tarp that is waterproof...you create a "greenhouse" effect. AND NOT saying that is what caused you problem...but rather...when thinigs are fixed...NEVER COVER YOUR CAR WITH A WATERPROOF NON-BREATHEABLE COVER!!!!!!!!! but it could have accelerated the problem due to the trapping of moisture.
I have seen it many times in the past...when a car is covered with numerous materials to TRY to protect it...and in fact they create more damage than if they left it un-covered and was allowed to get rain on it.
Your never too old to learn, my daddy said, and I guess I just learned something the hard way. But if you can, I am trying to visualize even with a waterproof cover creating that greenhouse effect (which I can see happening with damp concrete under the car) How the moisture would get under the clearcoat or basecoat and expand to blister? I guess it can happen, just don't know how.
Thanks for your advise and input, I have followed some of your threads and your experience shows.
First thing to remember is paint will never totally cure inside, may get to 90-93% but tail solvents will not come out until they See UV and you get no UV in a garage.
Here is a list of what will cause something like this to happen anywhere from first day in sun to seven full days in sun, after seven days normally problems like this are eliminated or the problems will get no worse.
Some of the causes listed are only because it never seen sun and may or may not apply to other jobs that were cured out.
*Washing glass with lacquer thinner.
*Not neutralizing paint stripper with water but cleaning it with lacquer *thinner.
* cleaning bare glass with water and or solvent and not letting dry out long enough before applying first coat of primer.
*Lacquer primer, if painted with urethanes.
*Factory lacquer left on car.
Basecoat or sealer trapped solvents (must be extreme) normally will just cause die back or minor pop, even inside.
*Waxing paint before cured outside.
*Covering car with plastic sheathing while stored.
*Covering car with waterproof car cover.
These are the main causes of a problem like yours and can't think of anything else.
Barry
Your never too old to learn, my daddy said, and I guess I just learned something the hard way. But if you can, I am trying to visualize even with a waterproof cover creating that greenhouse effect (which I can see happening with damp concrete under the car) How the moisture would get under the clearcoat or basecoat and expand to blister? I guess it can happen, just don't know how.
Thanks for your advise and input, I have followed some of your threads and your experience shows.
Angelo
I know you have been in a greenhouse before. Very hot and humid...or can be if they have it closed up and not venting at the roof. With the waterproof cover not allowing any moisture to pass through it...and moisture being under the car and on the concrete...the moisture will go up and get trapped...and with it being alot hotter under the cover...it can cause the smallest amount of moisute or solvent to expand and create a bubble. And with the paint being hotter...it is more likely to have a problem due to the moisture being right on it and being allowed to stay on it...and get hotter and hotter.
I am sure you have a seen a car that was covered in plastic and allowed the water to get under it and then the sun was allowed to shine on it for some time. some times it is not that long of a time...depending on how fresh the paint is. The pours of the paint open up and the water/moisure can actually cloud/milk-out the clearcoat...and ruin it. I have seen black cars turn gray and red cars turn pink when the cover is allowed to stay on it with water between the paint and the waterproof cover that CAN NOT breate. I have also seen the plastic damage the clearcoat due to the heat and the type of plastic react with the clearcoat and actually imprint it to the point of having to either be sanded and buffed...or re-cleared. Plastic on paint is NO-NO ...unless it is used to bag off/mask-off a car for painting...but that is not outside ( but in a paint booth) with the UV's of the sun NOT gettiing involved....and that plastic is designed for that purpose.
Also need to remember that fiberglass is a porous material, and that gelcoat was probably invented to seal that porosity. Was the car re-gelcoated last time? Your car was painted well before epoxy primers became accepted norm, and I believe from looking at the quality of reflection in your images that your last paint shop was detail oriented, and employed true workmen... the car is straight and glossy even 12 years later... no obvious wavyness or sand scratch popping. The whole job seems to have aged well excepting the blistering; I wonder if the failure is related to "old tech" paint systems and extended slumber? Especially if the last repaint was a "show" lacquer job where film thickness might also play into how the film has responded.... what kind of paint is on the car now?
Also need to remember that fiberglass is a porous material, and that gelcoat was probably invented to seal that porosity. Was the car re-gelcoated last time? Your car was painted well before epoxy primers became accepted norm, and I believe from looking at the quality of reflection in your images that your last paint shop was detail oriented, and employed true workmen... the car is straight and glossy even 12 years later... no obvious wavyness or sand scratch popping. The whole job seems to have aged well excepting the blistering; I wonder if the failure is related to "old tech" paint systems and extended slumber? Especially if the last repaint was a "show" lacquer job where film thickness might also play into how the film has responded.... what kind of paint is on the car now?
Went thru pics and check and determined the car was repainted the first week of Nov 2000. I guess paint still ages in a garage not exposed to harsh environments or weather. I believe it was a base clear job. Will find out within the next week I hope.
I just posted a few pictures of the car before the painting, before a detail shops buffing which caused the paint job in the first place (another story), prep pics before the paint in the body shop and after the repaint. The paint on the car before had NO issues before a buffer was put on it. Concensus here seems to point to something going wrong at the body/paint shop, either cleaning, prep or materials used.
What the waterproof cover does (same with waxing to soon over fresh paint, is as the fresh paint is dissipating the solvents, is force the solvents to stay in the clear, the softening of the fresh paint as the solvents come out allow the solvents to penetrate deep.
If the paint is real fresh with no UV exposure at this point anywhere from first day in sun to a couple of weeks of sun with cause a gassing effect and can either break adhesion from the base to the sealer or more likely cause, an adhesion break from the clear to the base.
That is why when you buy a new car it says in the owners manual, "do not wax" for 60-90 days, even though the auto plants bake at 400-500 degrees, they know all the tail solvents are not out until the car has good UV time.
Just being honest with you the best I can, as pictures are tough to read sometimes but does not look like anything the bodyshop did could cause the gassing problem you have.
What the waterproof cover does (same with waxing to soon over fresh paint, is as the fresh paint is dissipating the solvents, is force the solvents to stay in the clear, the softening of the fresh paint as the solvents come out allow the solvents to penetrate deep.
If the paint is real fresh with no UV exposure at this point anywhere from first day in sun to a couple of weeks of sun with cause a gassing effect and can either break adhesion from the base to the sealer or more likely cause, an adhesion break from the clear to the base.
Car was uncovered (no cover) for right about 10 years in a controlled environment. Paint was far from fresh. I would guess it had some (driver side) sunlight from a window over that time. When outside for the lift it had a cover on it for a few hours in an afternoon during a brief rain. Cover was then removed, it did not have time to bake.
UV's do not bend and will not go through a side window of the garage, just like the frame of the car will never see UV.
The paint was fresh, as it had been stored inside, like I pointed out before.
If its never been covered, perhaps someone waxed it???
Most jobs with problems like this show up the first time out and about 3-5 hours after being parked at a car show.
What would tell the story is take a razor blade to a bubble and at that point you have about 30 seconds to smell what solvent is gassed and where the bubble stops will also tell a story or point you in the right direction as to the posible causes.
Corvette Store
What happened!? How to fix? DAMN!
Gonna be moving most of them out to the shop for the sandblasting and powdercoating process.
