So, I have this shiny C6 Z06 in beautiful silver... however, certain lighting conditions have revealed what appears to be a paint mis-match.
I have studied other light colored C6s, particularly silver Z06s, and have noticed they do not all exhibit perfect panel match, and some are much worse than others. I've seen this on factory new cars sitting in the GM dealership, but not on all. The worst offenders I've seen are silver, yellow, metallic reds, and JSB.
This mis-match is not apparent in some conditions, and the day I purchused it as a GM certified used vehicle, it was not noticeable. Everything checks out regarding the vehicle never having been in an accident; it drives and works like a dream, but in some light, this paint issue rears it's ugly head and drives me nuts to the point where I wouldn't have bought the car had I noticed it on day one. Unfortunately, I did not; this is my first car that isn't black and I've never been aware of this from factory until now.
Here is what I'm talking about:
Lighting conditions - direct sunlight - in which it is normal:
Lighting condition that exposes it - sunsets or overcast - it is most noticeable at the leading edge of the door, but is also slightly mis-matched at the trail edge:
From my eye, it appears the passenger door and maybe the passenger rocker panel are a hair darker than the other fenders. There are no signs of repaint from what I can tell, but I'm no professional. The "feel" of the paint is uniform from fender to door, as is the look of the orange peel. The only thing that's not right is the match of the Machine Silver Paint in some lighting conditions.
Here's the driver side for comparison; very minor variation is noticeable but it's caused by angle and lighting, not a paint issue. This is comparable to all silver C6s I've seen and "correct" to my eyes:
My guesses are:
1. It was a bad day at Bowling Green
2. It was keyed, nicked, or dinged and repainted on the passenger door/rocker
3. It was in an accident and masterfully repaired, hidden, and covered up save for this one paint issue because silver paint is hard to match
4. It was nicked or dinged during transport and the panels were replaced
I think the most plausible is 1, 2, and 4. I rule out 3 on the basis of all the checks/inspections aligning and the way the car drives, especially having drven 4 C6Zs prior to purchasing this one, but have no way of knowing for sure.
The question is, what can I do to fix this? Does the door need to be repainted? Or is this a blend? How much would a door and rocker fix cost? Is there any way a professional can tell me if the car has been repainted by assessing various panels?
The paint on your car is almost entirely metalflakes suspended in clear, not much toner in there. Even the most experienced master painter will have difficulty laying the entire car down so all the flakes settle in the clear at precisely the same depth and angle, nevermind getting it perfect on a moving assembly line. It is quite possible your paint is entirely factory applied and never touched since then. Yes, a master painter can likely tell if your car has been repaired, but if the paint is untouched I suggest it be left alone... it's only original once.
KMK454,
Here it goes...and this may be long...but you asked for an answer.
I had saved "Ultimate Factories" on my TiVo and just reviewed the "Corvette" program that they ran on building the Z06. I looked at the painting part of the show and it showed that the panels are NOT assembled on the car...and the bumpers seperately from the rest of the body panels. So your issue is that when they were painting these panels....they may be different (BUT...within GM QC) and be allowed to be sent out of the factory. Eventhough in the show they showed several body panels being painted at one time while they were in the booth..(which appeared to be doing them for several cars all the same color)...AND...it seems that there would be no way of making sure that every panel that was put along side of another panel would acutally make it on the SAME CAR. I am sure is that as long as the paint has met the criteria for color fast (proper hiding) and clear coat texture...it is put in a bin and then sent to the assembly department where the panels are installed....where the installers are under such time restraints to have panels installed because the LINES NEVER STOPS....unless ther is a MAJOR problem. I , in the past, worked on an assembly line and heaven forbid if the line was forced to not move when programmed to do so...there would be heck to pay....if someone was the cause of it. Like we used to say at the plant..."There are THREE things in life that are certain...DEATH, TAXES. and the assembly line WILL always move."
I have seen the problem that you car has going on with it....many times. It is worse on some other colors where it is severely splotchy...from the factory...and I have seen MAJOR issues with the front and rear bumpers being so far off...in my eye...that they might as well painted them pink.
Your color is going to change on the angle...where the light makes it appear to darken. Like your photo's show. Good photo's ...by the way! This is due to the toner and the properties of that toner in the paint. Your car was painted by a robot...under a program that seems to please GM...in how MOST of the colors come out.
The ONLY way that you are going to get this to PERFECT...is to re-spray the car. You MAY not need to paint the bumpers....but blending into the adjacent panels ( fenders and quarters) will be required so you can make the car appear to be one even color. When you look down the side of the car.
If you have just won the LOTTERY and are really that lucky...you could just paint the doors and rockers. BUT...the chances of you getting the color to PERFECTLY MATCH the fenders and quarters...is quite darn near impossible. This is becasue it is what in the business we call a "butt-match"
When you try to paint a panel that comes right to the gap of another. AND you are painting that panel ALL THE WAY to the gap or edge. Lets say your door for example. Then the odds of the color being perfect (especially metallics and pearls) in every way is REALLY hard to do and not advisable. The amount of time you would spend on getting the color PERFECT...so that your re-painted door was PERFECT to your UNPAINTED FENDER......you could have prepped and blended into the adjacent panels (i.e. fender) and cleared everything and had a paint job that would match. AS long as the painter KNOWS what they were doing. I do this type of thing for a living...and I am speaking from years of experience. I was painting candies and pearls LONG before the automotive industry started using them as a paint choice.
It does not matter how old your car is or how well kept it is...the color is a "variable". Because when people make the pigments that go into the paint toners that make the color..and people weight these toners out to a formula. There will always be an issue with the color not being exact. Every company has a +/- factor. NOTHING is EXACT every time. Simply...it probably was not EXACT from the factory. and many colors have "variants" in the same color code. Which is proof of this problem that I and many other professional master painters have to deal with on a daily basis.
Last but not least and yet very IMPORTANT. It is about the clearcoat. IF you go and have this painted...just keep this in mind. Clearcoat CAN CHANGE your color. Especially metallics/pearl colors. And here is how it does it .
EXAMPLE: You probably at one time or another have been in a airplane...and when landing..you probably flew over residential areas.... and looking down you probably have seen a swimming pool in someones yard. And when you looked at the swimming pool...you could see that the deep end was a darker blue than the shallow end. But yet we all know that when they paint the inside of a swimming pool...it is all the SAME COLOR. SO. the light shines through the shallow end and shows the color much closer to what the pool was painted...but the deeper end..it is DARKER....because the light is having a harder time due to the depth of the water. And we know water is CLEAR...or at least should be in a pool. SO...the more clear that your painter applies to your fenders and quarters...where they meet with the bumpers...can make it darker and throw off your color. Because chances are that NO COLOR would be applied at those areas...( because those areas are not off and needing blending)...so adding more clear would not be needed. It would need some...but not as much as those areas that were basecoated in silver to get the color matching. It is a balancing act. And if the prep on the panels was preformed with care...trying not to remove too much of the factory clearcoat...then only a minumal amount would need to be sprayed so that if any watersanding/buffing/polishing could be done without any chance of breaking through the clearcoat. It does take a painter that knows what they are doing to balance everything out. UNLESS you are planning on re-painting/clearcoating the ENTIRE car. Solid colors are more forgiving....but still holds true....to the trained eye.
An "Ultimate Factories" John Deere combines episode ran immediately after the Corvette episode DUB speaks of over the holiday weekend. I did not catch the entire Z06 episode, but John Deere pays highly experienced human painters to ensure full paint coverage on their machines, even after all the primer dipping, robotic spray application and laser quality control BS that precedes that stop in assembly. There is NO substitute for an experienced HUMAN eye and pair of hands when inspecting/perfecting a visual medium like paint on an exotic automobile. If GM fails to utilise this system I say "shame on them" because in all other ways the Z06 is truly a world class Supercar, at a price that's an unbelievable bargain.
If GM fails to utilise this system I say "shame on them" because in all other ways the Z06 is truly a world class Supercar, at a price that's an unbelievable bargain.
I agree to a point markids77. BUT...it is a COST issue. Robots...for the most part do a decent job. and on the solid color Corvettes..this problem is not an issue. To PAY a union worker to paint the cars and have to hear their "issues" is something that I would not want to take on myself. I would let the robots do it...seeing how it is a "production" situation. If a person painted the cars...the cost of the car by the time it reached the dealership would be allot higher...because EVERYBODY would get their mark-up and profit....and WOULD NOT be just the cost added on to pay the painter to paint it.....IT DOES NOT work that way.
I agree that the cost to GM would be greater. I also know that Corvettes used to be painted by skilled workers, even well after the rest of production went robotic. I also know that Ferraris and Lamborghinis are painted by people not machines; and the quality shows in the result. I guess the craftsman in me is showing in that for minimal cost there could be a real person correcting the paint on Corvette production lines at a cost which would not be a deal breaker. Production numbers are not sky high here, and the issue brought up by the OP here might have been caused by something as innocuous as the human intrusion of a QC inspector opening an access door for a look see while those particular panels were being shot. In Z06 production there is already an exceptional amount of "one person, one job" going on. I think one more union jobber per shift would not kill profitability.
Thanks for the explanations, everybody... I really appreciate the input.
I really don't want to repaint the entire car simply because of cost, time and devaluation.
DUB, you said repainting the door only may be a bad idea... it seems that the door and rocker are just a shade darker than the rest of the car. I was thinking of repainting them originally and was wondering what the cost would be, but now you're saying it will be impossible to fix. Do you think it'd be just more time, money, and frustration with no positive end?
I'm very frustrated because these cars aren't cheap and I'm a "perfectionist" regarding asthetics. A chip or a scatch from use is ok, but this mismatch evokes thoughts of 80's Mustangs and bondo. It's to the point where if I can't fix this, I'm seriously considering just trading it away and not getting another GM car. And it's a shame, too, because every other aspect of the car is so phenomenal.
I agree that the cost to GM would be greater. I also know that Corvettes used to be painted by skilled workers, even well after the rest of production went robotic. I also know that Ferraris and Lamborghinis are painted by people not machines; and the quality shows in the result. I guess the craftsman in me is showing in that for minimal cost there could be a real person correcting the paint on Corvette production lines at a cost which would not be a deal breaker. Production numbers are not sky high here, and the issue brought up by the OP here might have been caused by something as innocuous as the human intrusion of a QC inspector opening an access door for a look see while those particular panels were being shot. In Z06 production there is already an exceptional amount of "one person, one job" going on. I think one more union jobber per shift would not kill profitability.
The craftsman in me also agrees with you...but that is not reality.
They make ONLY 2.7 Lambo's a day! That was a QUOTE from the "Ultimate Factories" show on the Lambo assembly Plant. NO NEED for robots. But yet...look at the cost....which I know is not attributed to just having the car painted by one person.
It would take WAY more than ONE person to keep up with factory production.
And when you add in all of the other costs built in when you employ someone...it adds to the bottom line. I own a business and I know this is a FACT.
Robots do not complain of fatigue or anything. They do what they are programmed to do. But I agree with you...they need to dial in the program so issues like this silver car in question do not have this type of problem. It all has to do with the "angles of the dangles". In the show on the Corvette plant, they were positioning the fenders at angles that were NOT the same as the doors and rockers. This might have something to do with the metallic structure being off when installed. But as long as theya re selling them...and people don't complain and force them to make a change...nothing will change. Most people do not have the "eye" for finding flaws like some of us do. And that also is reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMK454
DUB, you said repainting the door only may be a bad idea... it seems that the door and rocker are just a shade darker than the rest of the car. I was thinking of repainting them originally and was wondering what the cost would be, but now you're saying it will be impossible to fix. Do you think it'd be just more time, money, and frustration with no positive end?
KMK454,
I am not saying that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to paint the door and rocker to match the fender. ANYTHING is possible. BUT...chances are that when a test panel is shot and cleared...and set next to the fender...that it would match EXACTLY. I have seen strange things and IT may work without any problems. But it gets down to that 1/4 of a shade off that YOU can see.
NOW...I have spent days on tinting colors to get them RIGHT. And everytime I do...I wished that I had prepped the surrounding adjacent panels and shot the basecoat and blended it into the panels and it would have been done. But often times it is on a Corvette that just does not have a bolt-on fender or quarter. It would be the entire front clip and rear clip due to not having a good break point so in the future, the line where the clearcoat stopped...would not show up. Some of the Corvettes I repair have very nice paint jobs and taking a short-cut to save on time is NOT an OPTION. BUT it always depends on where the damage is and if I have enough room to blend. Sometimes to make it RIGHT, my hands are tied and have NO CHOICE in the direction I HAVE to take to make the repair UNDETECTABLE.
On your car your fenders and quarters are a panel and not bonded to others like in the pre-82 eras. So prepping them and blending teh sliver and clearing them is not that big of a deal.
I can appreciate it that you are a perfectionist. But if the job is done correctly....no one but you would know that it has been painted. That may be something that you have to consider. But if going through all of this to get the color to your expectations is to much of a hassle....then you and only you know where to take it from there.
Re-cap. Try it and see if the test panel will match or if the painter will spend DAYS on trying to get the color to match PERFECTLY.
Well, believe it or not, I took it to one body shop and the painter's assessent is it's all factory original paint, but he couldn't explain the variance in shade other than "GM Tolerances." He took the car in the back shop to do the test, not sure what he did. He said repanting the door would be a breeze but he wasn't sure about the rocker panel as it's not an easily removable piece. He said he's seen worse on other cars and in other colors.
Anyhow, I'd like a second opinion; I'll go to a different shop and find the best in the location to give a quote on painting. I'm worried the door and rocker may be a $1000+ event, not counting labor to yank the rocker. I have to figure out if that rocker panel is possible...
Well, believe it or not, I took it to one body shop and the painter's assessent is it's all factory original paint, but he couldn't explain the variance in shade other than "GM Tolerances." He took the car in the back shop to do the test, not sure what he did. He said repanting the door would be a breeze but he wasn't sure about the rocker panel as it's not an easily removable piece. He said he's seen worse on other cars and in other colors.
Anyhow, I'd like a second opinion; I'll go to a different shop and find the best in the location to give a quote on painting. I'm worried the door and rocker may be a $1000+ event, not counting labor to yank the rocker. I have to figure out if that rocker panel is possible...
The rockers are one of the few panels on your car that is glued into place. The removal and repaint will be in the couple of thousand dollar range just for the rocker.
Most paint jobs on C5 / C6's involve the removal of all of the body panels except for the mid center section, roof and rockers. The panels are sprayed individually at the same time the roof and rockers are done and then the car is re-assembled.
The real beauty of the C5 / C6's is that their easy to take apart and paint or change their colors unlike other cars who have painted engine bays and interiors.
Well, believe it or not, I took it to one body shop and the painter's assessent is it's all factory original paint, but he couldn't explain the variance in shade other than "GM Tolerances." He took the car in the back shop to do the test, not sure what he did. He said repanting the door would be a breeze but he wasn't sure about the rocker panel as it's not an easily removable piece. He said he's seen worse on other cars and in other colors.
Anyhow, I'd like a second opinion; I'll go to a different shop and find the best in the location to give a quote on painting. I'm worried the door and rocker may be a $1000+ event, not counting labor to yank the rocker. I have to figure out if that rocker panel is possible...
KMK454,
I will be glad to give you an opinion. I will PM you about it tomorrow.
aig1915 is correct about the FACT that the rocker panels are bonded in place and should NOT be removed...unless they are damaged and need replacing.
In your case, I would leave them alone and work on getting the silver to match and blend.
I recently had my 06 victory red Z06 repainted.
THere were approximately 9 variations of Victory Red that I had to select from before my car was repainted.!!! The absolute color of red was called "prime" and shades brighter or darker were identified as "x" number above or below prime. As it was expained to me, GM is NOT allowed by federal law to store the large volumes of paint on the assembly site, so it is stored at a facility some distance away and it is piped to the painting facility. The problem occurs in that there is not a dedicated piping assembly to each color....ALL paint colors are sent via the same pipe, albiet, at different times. When this, combined with the possible variations in the "new" batch of paint is supllied to the factory, slight shifts in the prime color will occur.
Because the Corvette body panels are painted off the vehicle, and may be assembled with body panels that were not painted at the same time, this color shift may be possible on a "factory" paint job.
As some have already said, the lower rocker panel is not bolted to the car as the other exterior panels are, but rather bonded to the chassis.
Here is a picture of my car in it's dissasembled state. They left the doors, hood, and rear hatch in place to protect the interior from overspray.
Here's a brand new ZR1 in blade silver... $120k and the leading edge of the door/rocker is significantly darker than the fender. I don't feel so bad anyomore.
Thanks for the explanations, everybody... I really appreciate the input.
I really don't want to repaint the entire car simply because of cost, time and devaluation.
DUB, you said repainting the door only may be a bad idea... it seems that the door and rocker are just a shade darker than the rest of the car. I was thinking of repainting them originally and was wondering what the cost would be, but now you're saying it will be impossible to fix. Do you think it'd be just more time, money, and frustration with no positive end?
I'm very frustrated because these cars aren't cheap and I'm a "perfectionist" regarding asthetics. A chip or a scatch from use is ok, but this mismatch evokes thoughts of 80's Mustangs and bondo. It's to the point where if I can't fix this, I'm seriously considering just trading it away and not getting another GM car. And it's a shame, too, because every other aspect of the car is so phenomenal.
Your anal perfectionism will only get you into a bunch of trouble here. Let it go. No one else will know. If the tiny variations in technique and materials at the factory couldn't produce a perfect product, what do you think your chances are out in the field with paint from another supplier, applied with different spray equipment, and under totally different and variable conditions. Not too good.
If the tiny variations in technique and materials at the factory couldn't produce a perfect product, what do you think your chances are out in the field with paint from another supplier, applied with different spray equipment, and under totally different and variable conditions. Not too good.
Wombvette,
I have to TOTALLY DISAGREE and SHOCKED with you in the above statement. Like you, I paint for a living and I have an AWESOME eye for color. And I have repainted enough pewter, champagne, sliver, silver-blue, tri-stage pearls and candies to the point I know the blend could not be found. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with different products, spray equipment and variable conditions. It has ALL to do with the perserverance of the painter to make sure that the color is correct for the blend and the ABILITY to "read" into the paint job and know how to repaint it so it is not detectable....and knowing the product and equipment he/she is using.
Like I have mentioned...This silver Corvette in question is repairable...and would NOT require an entire paint job to get it to match. It would all depend if the owner chooses to go that route or not to fix a factory paint issue. Some choose to fix it...some do not.
I am sure that we can agree that there are many different types of painters. Some that paint entire cars all the time....and those that have to repair paint jobs that have been painted by someone else....and regardless if it is from the factory or someone else...the ability to repair someone elses work ...to the point of not being able to detect it...takes skill. Painting entire cars takes skill also...and I do both and the skill levels are quite different. Attention to detail and "focus" during both situations are similar....and yet quite different.
Most poor blends that I have seen and had to repair were caused by the painter not taking the time to figure out the "game plan" and they just shoot whatever is given to them (mixed paint)...without performing tests to see what the end result will be...before actually shooting the car. It has taken me several days, adding tint several times to the color and shooting several test panels to achieve a color match that is VERY BLENDABLE....on some Corvettes.
It all boils down to dedication to achieve perfection....and $$$$$.
I agree with you DUB, but, It is not likely that he is going to find someone to do all that, and It will definitely be a costly painful experience for him. Now is that little shade difference, which is common to most of them, worth all that? BTW, the last pewter car I worked on, I believe the alternate count was seven, and none of them was perfect. The paint still had to be tinted and blended.
I agree with you DUB, but, It is not likely that he is going to find someone to do all that, and It will definitely be a costly painful experience for him. Now is that little shade difference, which is common to most of them, worth all that? BTW, the last pewter car I worked on, I believe the alternate count was seven, and none of them was perfect. The paint still had to be tinted and blended.
COMPLETELY!!!
But I was getting at that IF he wanted it repaired...regardless of the cost ...due to it being such an "eye sore" for him every time he walked out to his Corvette....that IT CAN be repaired. That is all I was trying to say. There are painter's out there that "have a clue".
And yes ...I also agree that the pewter is one "FUN" color to repaint and blend. Personally...I just love the "splotching effect". It stands out like a "sore thumb"...if you know what you are looking at. Even in my beginning days of painting...I never painted a metallic with that bad of metallic disturbance......NEVER.
I haven't read the whole post, but at most OEM high volume factories the body and doors are painted together... and then the doors are separated from the body to be built elsewhere in the same plant (install the windows, speakers, door trim)... but they match up back with the original car later on the assembly line.
The front bumpers however are usually brought into the factory pre built and sequenced... so they must be painted elsewhere.
I actually seen some Chrysler rear bumpers molded with a "painted" film to match the body paint. All they did was trim the part and it was completed without painting. I'm not sure they did all colors... seemed like they didn't do metallics.
Last edited by maddoggyusa; 03-08-2010 at 06:59 PM.
I haven't read the whole post, but at most OEM high volume factories the body and doors are painted together... and then the doors are separated from the body to be built elsewhere in the same plant (install the windows, speakers, door trim)... but they match up back with the original car later on the assembly line.
The front bumpers however are usually brought into the factory pre built and sequenced... so they must be painted elsewhere.
I actually seen some Chrysler rear bumpers molded with a "painted" film to match the body paint. All they did was trim the part and it was completed without painting. I'm not sure they did all colors... seemed like they didn't do metallics.
Maddoggyusa,
You may need to read post #4. The doors,fenders are not bolted in place during painting. And they are positioned at differnt angles...from the way the rocker panel is ...because it is bonded in position.
"DUB"
Corvette Store
Silver C6 Paint - What's wrong? Help please...
COMPLETELY!!!
