UE Triplefi

Interesting pair-up that Motortrend did here.

Two differing approaches and philosophies, and the end result is both fun, grin-inducing bang-for-buck coupes

Dave68

The Subaru and Scion FR-S are far lighter, have a much lower center of gravity, have better shifters, steering, and suspension so it doesn't surprise me that the comparison showed the Subaru to be a better driver's car than the Mustang. When it comes to fun-driving (but not necessarily track-winning), lightness rules.

UE Triplefi

If I were in the market I'd pay top dollar IF there's a V6 Mustang variant that uses Boss 302's handling & balance-enhancing parts.

C3DeedlyDee

Pretty much what I was expecting, which is why I would pick the BRZ out of the two. More fun.

apriliacati

I agree. Although I can't imagine any Mustang being enjoyable after my experience with my Terminator.

But really, if I had to choose between those two, I would not want either....

Dave68

If you were buying new on a <$30K budget, what would you buy that handles better?

BillY2KFRC

Cool video. I have a wr blue BRZ limited on order, should arrive late May/early June. It's replacing my 12 year old Integra as my daily driver, should be a blast to drive! I'll post up pics and a review in this forum after I've had some time with it.

McGirk94LT1

There in lies the beauty of the v6's track pack. It's less then 2k because its just gt and shelby bits, but it just works. Obviously there's more to it then just assuming boss springs are the best , but they should be a direct replacement if you wanted Almost everything is a direct replacement(within reason) from the gt/boss/gt500 and thus can be had pretty cheap off wrecked or upgraded cars. That's part of the reason I can't take the brz/frs serious. I know where multiple 11/12 track pack, no option cars are right now for a bit over 22K. Premium track pack models are pretty rare, but again, they are selling for the same or cheaper then the brz will msrp for and that's not including the insane mark ups that will happen. Now find yourself some 4 piston 14" Brembos off a wrecked gt/boss/gt500(direct replacement for rotors/calipers), gt500 size wheels, and 3.73 gears from ford and you have a fully warrantied, fairly cheap, track toy you can dd with 0 problem. I know that's talking mods, but subaru/toyota just doesn't have appeal as a performance car, and having those factory or secondhand mods available for the v6 mustang just makes it shine that much more. It's like the corvette coupe vs gt500/zl1 argument. Except imagine the gt500/zl1 was noticeably faster, handled better, AND was cheaper. The fact that they're more practical would just be icing on the cake. The corvette would need a very special buyer, as will the brz/frs.

To those buyers I say enjoy paying more just to get "better feel." I'd rather pay for results, especially in a more practical package with stupidly cheap upgrades available.

Silver05GTO

I see your all about the "stats." Perhaps you missed the review, or all the reviews, that love the BRZ handling and feel.
I will gladly take the better handling, more fun to drive car, over something that handles worse, body leans, and is a little quicker.

The Mustang V6 will be given away and depreciate hard, the BRZ is gonna hold resale very well.....all Subaru's performance cars do.

Also, talking mods, you realize tge BRZ is probably on the worst tires ever and still handles very well......swap a sticky tire on there and it'll improve it even more. And finally the aftermarket is going to be all over turbo kits for these cars if someone want's more power.

If you still prefer a V6 Mustang over a BRZ.....you don't appreciate a true drivers car.

McGirk94LT1

Oh indeed I've listened to every repetitive review of how this car is the second coming, and how every one age 15-95 will want it.

My problem with the brz/frs is this. Like you said, its being touted as a drivers car which is perfectly fine in my book. However it also is "not a car built for numbers" as Toyota/Subaru and fans of the car are saying. That just translates to me to "we didn't engineer the car well enough." Prius tires?!? That was their choice because they thought it was enough for the car, their choice not to use Pilot sports or Pzero's which could have helped close the gap(although weren't the wheels on that brz some optional wheel package included on the upper level trim?) Extracting 200hp out of a 2.0 with direct and port injection and 12.5 compression? Laughable honestly. An extra 10-15hp would have helped, at probably no cost of driveability. Civic si hit 198hp years ago from 2.0. And the manual is rated at what, 30mpg I believe? Again from a direct injection 2.0 that's mediocre. Someone from subaru already announced they would be doing an STI version, a naturally aspirated version as they see no room for a turbo or supercharger in the engine bay. That should clearly beat the v6 mustang if its making 230+hp, but will probably cost over $30k... well into GT territory. And if you wish to talk aftermarket turbos(if they even get made), then let's talk a vortech for the mustang, since the cars are similar in price and the super/turbo system would be as well. Depreciation is a null point, no one has any idea how much these cars will. Nor how big a mark up most will have...

The mustang is far from perfect that's true, but its also just meant to be an edgier version on their bread and butter mass market car, yet it still gets the job done in spades. Shocks, struts, springs, and sway bars from gt/gt500 models with gt front brakes. Such a simple idea worked out so well. Body roll has always been noted, so they probably should have used stiffer shocks or springs, but that would compromise their bread and butter cars ride quality.

I guess my real problem is this. The brz is a built from the ground up with neat engineering like whole top of the car being aluminum, boxer engine for low center of gravity, etc. and it doesn't perform well for the money. The v6 mustang(and I don't doubt the turbo 4 genesis probably) outperforms it, and all the mustang got was suspension bits they had off hand. It's an 80,000 a year "secretary's car" with hand me down suspension. I hardly count that as trying hard, not nearly so as a ground up sports car. And since feel is subjective, I might not feel its terribly better then car B or C. The Z06 is always touted as a nasty, in your face, hard to drive car, but that deters me 0% from wanting one over a gtr.

And I appreciate a drivers car. Every corner I dive harder into then the next guy I enjoy more. Every time I pull away faster out of the corner, I get my kicks. I appreciate driving a car, any car, hard and testing mine and the cars limits. The brz impresses everyone with its ease to drive hard. That's just codeword for it doesn't have enough power to get risky and thus is safe/easy to drive. Same has always applied to the rx8 reviews. The reality is, this is $20k worth of car with, apparently, a $5k very communicative steering system.

Dave68

Fun-to-drive, like almost everything else, is subjective. But it is no coincidence that in every "fun-to-drive" head-to-head comparison of sports cars, the ones at or near the top of the list are light vehicles. A 3600 lb car will never top a list in such a category, no matter how much power for the money it has.
Think about how much fun it is to wind out a tach and shift a buttery-smooth short-shifter on your way to work - every day. You just can't do that with a 500 HP car or even a 300 HP one unless you work in Montana or some other wide-open state. This is why MX5s and the old CRX Si were so popular. You didn't need Montana or a track to "wring out" the car. The term "slot car" was used so often for light weight, flingable cars.
I liken a Corvette or Viper to an SR71 Blackbird, whereas a BRZ or FR-S is more like one of those aerobatic planes that are not nearly as fast but require a much shorter runway and are always lots of fun.

McGirk94LT1

I completely understand what your saying. But no, I have no interest in a screaming 4 banger revving to 7000+rpm for 3 shifts, and not hit remotely close to 100mph as in the case with the crx, miata, civic, or brz/frs. I find the idea of a "performance car" screaming to redline, making a lot of noise, and going nowhere annoying actually. When I see a 95 civic si going down the road, redlining over and over again with a fart can, I just picture my car next to it and how much farther down the road I'd be getting... and more quitely none the less.

I dont have the fastest car out there by far, and not every $26k car out there is faster then the brz/frs, not at all. But if you have a sporty car and are banging off the rev limiter, you should be getting down the road in a hurry or whats the point?

C3DeedlyDee

What's the point of getting down the road in a hurry if you've got speed limits? On most interstates, I'm pretty much speeding once I've shifted from 2nd to 3rd in my M Coupe if I'm wringing it out, so usually I find myself intentionally trundling along and short shifting just so I can play with the transmission.

UE Triplefi

Here's my simple rule of thumb when applied to these 'fun' coupes:

1. If you live somewhere in Texas or Southern Nevada, where most of your driving time is spent on roads are straight line and where cornering is only seen and done on freeway entry and exit ramps; get the Mustang (or others similar to its class) where you can safely hustle it and enjoy the engine soundtrack.



2. If you live somewhere where you most likely to encounter twisty, winding roads or even a mountain pass, cars like Miata, S2000 and finally the Toyota-Subaru twins will come in very handy where the virtues of 'balance' is the name of the game.



Preferences to these cars should depend on where you live and where you're most likely to encounter the types of roads I mentioned above.

BillY2KFRC

This is what I'm looking forward to. I'll still have my 600hp LS7 Vette to drive when I need that rush, but honestly, during my daily commute I think the BRZ will be just as fun. When I drive my Vette to work, I might go WOT once if there is nobody in front of me on the highway on-ramp. And that WOT is for like 2 seconds until I top out 3rd, maybe 4th if the highway is clear. Then I put it in 6th and cruise at 75mph for the next 40 miles.

Then again, I've been a little spoiled driving modded Vettes for the past 11 years. I've gotten used to the HP and started appreciate other aspects of driving and handling. If you asked me 10 years ago about the BRZ, I probably would've laughed at you and said I'd never drive such a "slow" car.

Guibo

Or you could take them seriously and admit that a manufacturer just might put more emphasis on some areas rather than outright speed. Look at the Lexus LFA, a car that was similarly built around the driving experience (adjustability, balance, naturally aspirated V10 howl and instant throttle response, etc). On relatively modest tires (same as you get in a BMW 1-Series), old-school semi-auto transmission, and no great engine displacement, it laps about as fast as mid-engined cars on much better tires with faster dual-clutch transmissions (or front-engine cars with more power, fatter tires, and Sport Cups). Does that sound like "they didn't engineer the car well enough"?
According to Motor Trend's individual test of the BRZ, the Limited trim "adds leather/Alcantara upholstery, dual-zone automatic climate control, heated seats, foglamps, a rear spoiler, and push-button start with keyless entry." No mention of larger wheels, though our US market wheels are probably larger than the standard Japanese-spec wheels. In any case, the Mustang's wheels are larger and it's putting more rubber on the road.

But wouldn't you already have a fully warrantied, fairly cheap track toy you can dd with 0 problem with the standard V6 Mustang? I don't see those mods you listed there closing the gap to what fundamentally separates the BRZ from the Mustang: precision feel, feedback, etc.
In the case of the Corvette coupe vs the faster modified musclecar, those cars might be faster but they won't impart the same low-slung pure sportscar feel and agility that the Corvette has. They wouldn't necessarily handle better than the Corvette.

As for results, unless you are actually timing your 0-60s, segments times on public roads, or racing against a BRZ in a V6 Mustang, you'll never realize those results.

Dave68

Exactly! It's like comparing tennis to table tennis. You wouldn't try to play full-on tennis with ping pong paddles or table tennis with rackets. Both can be fun in their own way but the most fun comes from using the right equipment at the right location.

Silver05GTO

I owned a C6Z for a few years are recently sold it, once the thrill of stabbing the gas ***** off, all that hp was useless on a public road for my driving. I've been spoiled too getting to own faster and faster cars over the years but I guess after the C6Z.......I'm now more into a balanced car and all out hp is much less a requirement for me to be happy....
Same as you, ask me when I was 23 about the BRZ, and I wouldn't have cared cause it isn't "fast enough."