TeddyFreddy

I know what you mean.

I have encountered a different situation.
Some Porsche owners truly believe in some sort of magical superiority their cars have, while everything else is junk.
Now I can understand that they need to justify the very large amount of money they have spent on their car, but really the times are different.
Competition is tough, technological progress is high and these days there are cars that cost less AND are faster than the P cars.
C6 Z06 and the 2008 Viper are examples. Other cars will come.

TeddyFreddy

It is funny how Porsche fans always bring "the interior" all the time, no matter we were talking about performance, not the luxury.

Also bringing a photo of an used Z06 interior and compare it with a new top of the line Porsche won't cut it, try again.

AtomicZ

Don't take me the wrong way. I did put a disclaimer that not all P-car owners are this way. I have friends that have P-cars and we don't seem to have these type of conversations. We accept the cars for what they are and we understand what they are not. I currently own a Z06 - I love it. Would I buy a Porsche someday, maybe, don't know. I like them for what they are and would be considered if I was looking for that kind of purchase.

Regarding the GT-R. We will have to wait and see what it actually is when it hit the streets and we see what it can do. With the HP to weight ratio I don't see it in stock form pushing these other cars. But it is a turbo car and that opens up a lot of possibilities. I am all for the HP wars that are going on right now. The P-cars, Mercedes, BMW and now Nissan have figured out that if you provide a stout engine with a turbo to start with that you can easily get some serious HP with some minor upgrades. Hopefully GM has made the ZR-1 in the same mold. You can only get so much out of a NA engine if you want to keep it streetable.

vtresto

The point is that noone would pay $180,000 for that Z06 but that GT2 will have buyers for that price... the GT2 is that good of a car in many categories to justify that price for more people.
European cars tend to be "overall" more refined machines... not just strong in a specific category.

"Bang for the Buck" is the Corvette's strength.
Like Japanese bikes compared to some Euro bikes... and not too many people question those price differences.

AtomicZ

You are right - people do buy it and some even pay a premium over
MSRP to get it. That is their right to spend their hard earned money any way they chose. People also paid premiums for the Z06 (I did not), and there will be people paying huge to buy the ZR-1 or whatever it is called when it is released. Good for them - go for it. Again - I didn't say it was worth $180k - I just stated that I think it stacks up favorable to any car at any price.

I have given the GT2 plenty of props here. I unfortunately just am not going to pay that much for it. I do not see it being worth $100k more that a Z06 regardless of it European heritage


Is an Enzo worth $1mm - must be - people paid it.
Is the Veyron worth $1mm+ - must be - again people bought it.

vtresto

Comparing the corvette to higher priced cars is a way of showing what a great car it is in terms of performance, like comparing the S2000 to a Porshe Boxster S, but too many "enthusiasts" use these comparasons to ridicule more expensive cars as "ripoffs" which is silly.

There's a lot more to the GT2 and a Ferrari which does justify their higher prices... not just European heritage... i doubt any Ferrari owner thinks he's been ripped off.

On the flip side, prices of classic corvettes might be ripoffs too... but if there is a consistent group of buyers for them at particular prices...not just on a rare occasion...then it is not a ripoff.. it's what they're worth.

AtomicZ

I have never ridiculed another for the car they own. Regardless if it is a P-car or a Ford. I personal don't see paying what some of the asking prices are on cars. I think the Aston Martin DBS is the best looking car out there - IMHO. But I don't see myself paying that kind of money for a car.

Nor have I said anyone has been ripped off. I agree if the market allows for a price to be charged because people are willing to pay it - great.

Let's not get off topic too far and start discussing classic vettes or musclecars. That is another can of worms. I own 3 musclecars and I think those prices have gotten a little out of hand also. Again - if someone is willing to spend their hard earned money on one - it is their choice.

shawn h.

If you want to compare the GT2 to a Ferrari and Lambo, then you have to include the Z06 as well. No matter how much Porsche tries w/the 911, it is no where in the overall league of a Ferrari and Lambo.

shawn h.

Ferrari's and Lambo's have a certain Cachet and Mystic that no 911 can match!!! Those cars are worth every penny b/c of that!

On the other hand, the 911 GT2 has no where near those qualities that the Italians have....and IMO isn't even worth $100K!!! Just b/c someone gouges on the price and builds only a very limited # of cars (to save embarrasment of future discounts) doesn't mean that their car is worth that amount and should automatically be compared to Ferrari's and Lambo's. I guess the same goes for the Corvette as well.

cet001

Corvettes are faster than Porsches and cost a lot less -- yes everyone is (and has been since the beginning of this thread) aware of this uncontroversial fact. Nobody is arguing against it.

This is the crux. You're talking about performance -- others are not. It sounds like you're claim is that Porsches are overpriced based almost entirely on the fact that their track performance can be matched or beat by cars that cost significantly less. But there are other tangible aspects of a car that contribute to its value and desirability (interior being one of those aspects).

AtomicZ

Compare away. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. If you breakdown every segment of each car to figure out a winner. Good luck - to many opinions. The only thing that is debatable is the performance #'s of a stock car versus a stock car.

You have not seen me declare any car the "WINNER" or superior to another. I do have opinions of bang for the buck, performance and overall quality. And different cars come out ahead in different catagories. Just MHO.

vtresto

Perhaps you're not a Porsche enthusiast, but arguing that a particular brand has more "stupid" buyers is ridiculous.
How many stupid people buy corvettes just because it's a corvette?...so I don't buy the premise that people aren't willing to pay 100k for it because of a "cheap" brand image or clever advertising gimmicks by Porsche.

If there is a "consistent" group of buyers year after year and fans for a particular brandname, then it's worth what they "are" selling for... and the intelligence of those car buyers and the enthusiasts are the same as any others.

Porsches, like Corvettes... earned their reputations even if people have different preferences.

AtomicZ

Agreed. People have passion for different cars for different reasons. Maybe it is what their dad or grandpa owned. Maybe it is the first car they owned or a ride in one they received when they were young that left a lasting impression on them. Maybe it is where they conceived their first child. The intangibles are what seperates which car a guy buys or dreams of.

For some reason cars seem to have a very emotional attachment to a lot of people and that is how we end up in these endless debates.

I forgot what this thread was about in the first place.

shawn h.

You do have valid points, but how many GT2's does Porsche build in a year. I would guess 500-1000 units...not sure though. If GM builds 500-1000 Z06's a year, then what do you think they can sell it for?

cet001

Hm, this must explain the unusually high Lotus Exige ownership rate among professional contortionists and circus clowns.

shawn h.

This thread was started out as a very accurate report of how Porsche's are not the Ultimate, high quality machines that some perceive it to be and how they are vastly over-priced.

vtresto

Hard to say until GM makes enough profit to risk testing out that theory on Corvette buyers which are a different breed than Porsche buyers with different criterias as to what they'll pay more for... Porsche knows what their customers expect for those dollars.
...i highly doubt GM can offer what they currently have for that amount even with low volume... if anyone does pay it, they'll likely get killed on it's "saleable" resale value.

dietrich

I will argue against it - faster than which Porsche? No Corvette is faster than a CGT, no Corvette is faster than 997 GT2. The Z06 is about the same as a GT3 on track and slight faster than 997 Turbo which is faster than C6. For money of course then yes Z06 and C6 is faster than same money Porsche.

last901

This is getting to be a really interesting forum. I think it may be important to recognize that a lot - perhaps most - of the people who buy new Porsches don't belong to a club nor participate in a forum. I suspect there's a great many Corvette owners who don't either. I think that leaves the rest of us, Porsche and Corvette owners, who are passionate about our choice of ride and is what leads to all these diverse opinions and posts.

Given that, I've never met any Porsche owner who has felt it necessary to "justify" their purchase. And, I should add, most of the people I've met in many years of membership in the Porsche Club of America (PCA) don't drive new Porsches. I have found that to be true with the regional Ferrari club as well. These are just folks like us who enjoy the history, tradition, racing successes, and overall performance of their cars. Like me, they seem to prefer the older cars (Although a lot of the older Ferraris are becoming worth more than the newer ones - Gee, kinda like Corvettes and Porsches)

Speaking for myself, I bought my Porsches (all but one, used) because I wanted them, especially my last 911 Speedster. I had only to justify them to myself. For example, my Speedster was actually appreciating in value and, in the end when I sold it, got all my money back. Pretty much the same thing with my Carrera Targa.

I bought my C6 simply because I wanted to have something that was more comfortable and reliable so I could use it for long road trips. I also bought it for many of the same reasons I bought my Porsches. Namely, a wonderful tradition and history, great racing successes, and a large following of organized enthusiasts and events. Not to mention it was also a fun car to drive. Does that sound like "justication"? Funny, but those were much the same reasons back in 1966 when I had my first Corvette and in 1970 when I bought my first Porsche.

You're right; technology has increased exponentially. I agree times are different - but arguably better. Despite the feeding frenzy that seems to be occuring with Muscle Cars at auction, I think we may very well be in a "Golden Age" so far as enthusiast cars are concerned. I believe we have more performance cars from which to choose now then we did in, say 1967. Even more fascinating is they aren't all intermediate-bodied American cars, but include Asian subcompacts, European sedans, Italian sports cars, even pickup trucks. It's a wonderful time to be a car enthusiast.

I guess, though, it is only natural for an enthusiast to - not defend, or justify - their favorite ride. I just don't understand some of the people who feel so compelled to argue over which marque is better than another as if their family honor was on the line.

Hmmm, where was I going with all this? Sorry to ramble. I think I need to get a job.

cet001

I was assuming the context of this thread was being taking into account when I said "Corvettes are faster than Porsches and cost a lot less". I'm sure there exists at least one cat on the planet that doesn't like tuna, but it's generally accurate to say that "cats like tuna".