HoCoDave

In the spirit of desertdawg's quest for new posts, I offer the following thoughts for discussion:

Will the dwindling pool of real original Corvette parts force a change in NCRS judging? I guess I'm specifically thinking about examples in tires and headlights. Before I was wise enough to swap out my original T3's, I burned out a bulb during a night time cruise. D'oh! Well, that began my quest for a replacement bulb (yeah, an elusive 3-prong hi/lo beam). Meanwhile, I like to maintain the FC look of my vette, so I went with the 'Lectric Limited repro T3's, which look pretty darn good except for the minute "dot" tucked in the lens. That would be an automatic deduction in judging. Same issue occurs with newer tires and the "dot" markings, but do you even want to roll these cars around on 40 year rubber? Time will only make things worse. So, to keep the hobby interesting to all, and allow for cars to be driven and not just trailered, with the NCRS be forced to accept near perfect repros, or perhaps lower the percentile to achieve Flight Status???

But back to my T3 search: I went to a couple of car shows and there weren't many 3-prongs for sale and there weren't any you'd trust to light up (you know, you pick it up, shake it and it rattles....). Finally, at Bloomington Gold I found a vendor who would only sell used T3's in sets, but was also eagerly willing to hook them up to a battery prior to sale, to prove they worked. Chasing after these gems you realize that time is more precious than money, so, I bought the whole set to get one bulb, and now I've got spare bulbs (hopefully) to last me through any NCRS judging I may later decide to attempt. Each year the limited supply of original parts declines. Will judging become so dejecting, or daunting, or critical that it will take the fun out of owning these cars?

What about original style paint, as it is less frequently found/used?

And while I'm on a related topic, why is it so hard for vendors to accurately reproduce original parts? I've already got a box (and I know you do too) of incorrect reproduction parts that we've all accepted as part of the price of the hobby. (Grumble grumble.....cost me more just to ship it back....grumble grumble...and I don't want to deal with the hassle with the vendor.....). Anyone need a slighly incorrect but totally functional BB dipstick???.... Are their copyright laws that prevent the accurate reproduction of original parts? How much could it possibly cost to obtain the copyright to produce those parts??? Even if there is a cost for that right, wouldn't a vendor easily be able to obtain a premium from suckers like me who'd be willing to pay the extra for correct fitting/correct looking/correct functioning parts?

Hey, when you finish a long post like this, do you find it's then easier to decide which cartoon faces (what are they called?) you'd like to insert into the text, but that it's harder then because they get appended at the end and you have to cut and paste? I'd like to make my post more visually appealing, but I'm a bit rushed now so I don't have the time to insert the smiley face, dunce head, cussing, and rant off symbols, etc. Please insert your own inages mentally where appropriate.....
:D

Dave

Plastic Pig

Original bulbs, tires and paint don't concern me too much. I'll take halogens, radials and B/C any day. I do however have boxes of incorrect repro JUNK too. Why even bother making the effort to make a part if you are not going to make it correctly :mad

mayberg

I don't think NCRS will relax any at all - the standard is the standard.

There's loads of C4s that have been tucked away waiting anxiously for their turn, and these cars are PERFECT! There's nothing missing, everything works, everything is as it was. And imagine the multitude of stuff to make a C4 compared to an early shark or mid-year. Ugh!

SBR

I agree, I just paid $2000 for a set of NOS blackwalls for my 69. If you think that nuts I heard a guy paid 10K for NOS tires for his 67! I too wish that parts could be reproduced correctly.

clem zahrobsky

if NCRS did that these dealers selling the orignal parts would storm the office of the NCRS and hang the officers out the top floor windows by their ankles. :chevy

Cholo

Dwindling......C4's........Top Flight.......

Deep subject-

I have consistently found EVERYTHING for my '87 Coupe.....Discontinued.
As far as the DREADED Chevy dealer goes,and many corvette suppliers as well.

I'm talking about the CLUTCH and all it's parts,and seals. The dread "4minus3" gearbox it's parts are TOTALLY discontinued of course.

I grasp the it is a Run of 5 production years these LOUSY units, but ohhh...
Original is original,no matter how ill-concieved or hastily and poorly designed.

BUT.......IT IS RARE!!!!! Like most new junk, Corvettes of the era are virtually ALL automatics.

SO much for a SPORTS CAR!

But the repro stuff for my '66 has always seemed okay and frankly I guess
the majority of the stuff for my '71 LS5 has been overall okay.

The FAN SHROUD of all things has been a huge contentious issue though.

THe "Original" cars I've actually seen LOOK like what I have,but what i have been supplied DOES NOT bolt together.

All Items have been from C.Central,Zips and Sermersheim's. All the GM part #'s are there,but nothing fits. Most original cars I've seen 70/71/72 454 A/C cars have had BROKEN shrouds or no EXTENTION because it is missing or the landings on the shroud are broken.

But alas.......most -32- or for that matter -16- year old Chevy's are in the Boneyard or crushed like soda cans.

So by comparision...."Old Corvettes Rarely Die".

SOme just become tasteless ,horrid CUSTOMS! :U

Hmmm lemme show my age just a bit- an ol' diddy by-
*Bachman Turner Overdrive*-------------- Old junk vettes become-

"FOUR WHEEL DRIVE! DRIVE DRIVE !!!! :cuss

Such is this American Life,huh? :hat

No 4WD for me, even my dread '87 is staying TOP FLIGHT if at all possible.
Minus it's Delivered Goodyears and Delco Freedom Battery of course.

I don't have original BOWLING GREEN AIR in my tires,except the original SPARE's AIR! :D

But- FOR REAL- it really does have it's original R12 FREON in the A/C system.

But alas...nothing lasts forever does it. :p:
It's day will come.

I didn't even know C4's were being FLIGHT JUDGED til a couple months ago.

But, not driven or tagged since 1993 and with but 50,000 on the OD.........
I said" WTH eh ". Might as well go for Top Flight NOW! ;)

So yeah.....the dwindling OEM parts apply TO virtually all non C5 Corvettes it would appear.

Tis our personal burden, YES? :blueangel:

Regards.....Cholo

R1234

Speaking of dwindling parts, I can't find the 1968 a/c condenser to drier bottle tubing or the drier bottle to evaporator hose tubing. If anybody has any leads please let me know. :chevy

Desertdawg

Well here's a different view,

If the repo parts were perfect, then it wouldn't be hard to recreate a top flight vette. And I think that the the judging would become a thing of the past, because of all the imposter's.

Yes it's very hard to find all the correct parts, I see it when I look for stuff for my 82CE. But that is what makes Top Flight, and the NCRS awards so special.

vettes1st

I have never figured why a part wouldn't be just as easy to make correctly as in correctly. If we all would pound on the vendors with this junk, I think it would get better. Fastners are the worst. They'll sale you anything with threads on it!
:mad

Tom73

For trailer queens there is not issue. For drivers it is not an issue. Trailer Queens are judged so they MUST be correct. But they are not driven so the bulbs and tires do not wear out. A driver is driven and not judged, so correctness is not so important, roadability is more important.

But there are some cars that fall inbetween. For these, the owners have the correct parts and those are installed only for the judging event. The car normaly runs on modern radials but when judging time comes around off come the radials and a correct set of wheels and tires go on. Same for headlights. Judging over, off come the parts to perserve them for a future show/judge.

It is a game, just got to learn the rules.

NCRS change it rules? Don't think so. This will assure the continued appreciation of the correct cars. If you have one then you want to make sure that its value keeps going up. Changing the rules would not be in the best interest of the NCRS or its members.

There are other judging events for the non-top flight type cars.

tom...

HoCoDave

Tom, good points in your post above. I am learning the rules. Out came the T3's recently and in went the repros....

Desertdawg, that is a different view to consider. I guess if I had to choose between maintaining top dollar or maintaining original "quality" and availability, I'd prefer to see perfect repros even at some expense to my "investment", since I really didn't buy the car as an investment but I like to keep it historically accurate. It is a tough question though, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.." and an exact repro part would look as neat. Indeed some do, but when would it go too far? I mean, it reminds me of the joke about owning the actual hatchet that George Washington used to chop the cherry tree: "Here it is right here in my hands.... Sure, the handle's been replaced 5 times and the blade has been replace 3 times, but it occupies the same space!......"

I'm in that "between" segment with a FC car I want to drive. I loved seeing the L88 at BG a couple of weeks ago, but I was also a bit sad to see it sitting there with 11 miles on the odometer and thinking folks aren't likely to ever see it displaying its awesome potential/glory. Maybe we should encase it in lucite? How about the one about the guy who won the gold medal and was so proud that he wanted to preserve it, so he had it bronzed..... :D

In the end I think we agree that original parts are best.... I just worry about the dwindling supply of original parts, especially those which cannot be refurbished.

Paul Borowski

Lot of good points here. I guess this is one reason I enjoy driving my "non-NCRS" '68 convertible and '75 coupe the best-don't worry about "numbers matching" alternators, starters, carbs, etc. But then again, I appreciate my "very, very original" 4 Star Bowtie(to get it's Fifth Star at Hershey) Orange '74 Coupe and my Silver '68 Coupe that just got Bloomington Gold Survivor two weekends ago. Those two cars I'm picking up original key parts as I find them at say Bloomington, Carlisle & eBay. Those two cars I want to remain as original as possible, even though I DO drive them about 400mi a year.
I also contemplated going for "BenchMark" with it(the Silver '68), but the more I see I'd need to do(as SBR mentioned with the $2000 Blackwalls), NOS exhaust(like I could ever find it :eek: ), the "restoration" battery, etc., etc., I could spend easily $3500 and that still would'nt "guarrantee" me a BenchMark, so why do I really need to do this for anyways. Not really even worth it. I see that the three or four '68s going for BenchMark not one even got it, so I'd be taking a BIG chance just to try :yesnod: I am taking it for at least a "Bowtie try" up at Windsor, Ontario next year at the NCRS Nationals up there in 2004.
The "ORIGINAL" parts are ALWAYS going to be there, their cost is just rapidly increasing...

Dave McDufford

I have a funny reaction to this topic.

While I respect the individual who is lucky enough or rich enough to have an everything original vette, I am bringing a tired/worn-out mildly bubba’d ‘65 327/350 convertible back to something very close to how it left the factory. I have the judging guide that I am trying to follow. The parts that need replacing are the best replacement parts I can find. The cost of NOS or repairable original is too high or the parts are too scarce.

I am still spending a great deal of time and money, but I do not think I will get a lot of respect for the effort from the guys who can talk about the “correct” whatever for an hour. I feel like I am doing a very good restoration and I am getting a great deal of personal satisfaction. But the experts probably will not agree…
:cheers:


[Modified by Dave McDufford, 8:30 AM 7/10/2003]

John McGraw

Dave,
There is only one person you need to please in this world, YOU!
I have a real nice Top Flight 60 and am in the process of building a C4 conversion 59. Some of my Restoration buddies won't hardly even talk to me anymore because of the 59, but that is OK, because I am doing what makes me happy.
Regards, John McGraw

Paul Borowski

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: The C4 conversion sounds neat!!! When these are tastefully done---I like 'em!!! Would love to have one to "cruise" too :thumbs:

Viking427

Not copyright laws...scale of economies.
Repro'ing parts is not a science, but rather an artform & of course a business. GM had big budgets, countless human and material resources. Repop shops will often release first run parts to help offset their investment...even though they have full knowledge the part is not a perfect fit the first time. Reputable shops eventually improve the quality of the part by demand. They'll rework the castings, molds, plating quality etc (reason why some repro parts fit "better" over time from the same mfr). Just say NO ! ...vote with your dollars...return those parts to the supplier and force their mfr to retool or file ch.11. Replating/refurbishing/restoring original parts are still your best option. Even GM was in it for the money, just look at all the NOS junk floating around that the Generals been passing over the counter for the last 50 years. These "replacement" parts were mfr'd just to get your car fixed and rolling again...not mirror what actually rolled off the showroom floor. :rant:

HoCoDave

You have my respect. I think it's great what you are doing. Besides, in the end your personal satisfaction is what really counts.

While I said I'd pay a premium for accurate parts, I would rather NOT pay a premium for accurate parts. I just want accessible accurate parts (and I just assume it would entail some premium).

So, if it's not the copyright that's preventing accurate parts, it must be stupidity, because sometimes it looks dang easier just to accurately copy the parts exactly. For example, I think there are repro master cylinder covers that can be identified as incorrect because the wording imprinted at the top is incorrect. How hard could that have been to figure out with an original sitting in front of you??? It makes me believe it goes just beyond the tooling costs, but I dunno.

Dave

LemansBlue68

I really hope I don't offend anybody with my opinion here, but here goes.....

I personally like the exclusivity of the older Corvettes and really appreciate someone who has taken the time and has the $$$ to afford to restore it with all correct NOS and original parts. Those are the guys with the SPECIAL cars, or better yet, if a guy has a pristine original UNRESTORED car. If everyone had the means and the access to the "original" parts these cars wouldn't be as SPECIAL. If I wanted a hobby car that I could just run to the dealer to buy parts for, I would have bought a C5. I'd have a cool car, but nothing all that exclusive. Even my C3 is not all that exclusive but I like the car and you don't see'em everyday.

In recent years I have almost come to the opinion that Corvettes have become TOO EASY to restore. There are scads of repro parts out there that are pretty darn true to original if you're willing to pay for the quality. There are also scads of NOS parts out there if you're willing to look and pay the bucks. There are lots of guys out there that earn a living dealing in and restoring those parts for us. Those of us that have to settle for non-original, "just OK but not completely correct parts", will have OK restorations will not be part of the most exclusive "DUNTOVBOWTIETRIPPLESPINNERFIVESTARGOLDC LUB" but that's OK....
after all they're only Corvettes. Even so, the costs to restore a car like this are reflected in the car's value (or maybe not). As exclusive as we like to think they are, there were still millions of 'em made.

Part of the resentment for the re-stamping issue is that the guy who has the real McCoy as far as GENUINE big blocked, whiz banged, optioned Corvette goes, finds out his car is not so exclusive now because some low life can make a counterfeit so easily. The low life simply stuffs the same whiz bang big block motor made up with old/repro parts into the engine compartment where some small block (of which there were so many more, and therefore are so much less of a true "Corvette" [sarcasm]) once resided, and then trims it out to look like the original by picking up a catalog and spending some money to buy the restoration parts to make it look like some "rare" version of Corvette. He may even pass it off as real. How many '67 L88's were made and how many are there now? Heck even the trusted "Documentation" is being faked these days! Want a reproduction build sheet? Buy one off of ebay! You can have'em a couple of different ways: New, or "aged" (The "aged" version costs a little more...wonder why in the heck you'd want one "aged"....hmmmm).

The cars I really have come to respect are the Duesenburgs, Cords, Auburns etc.... How many NOS or original parts exist for these cars? Not as many as there are NOS L88 parts I would bet. The people that restored these cars I can pretty much consider craftsmen as I'm sure they either restored the original parts or were forced to craft reproduction parts by their own hands. These are the true classics. There are no restamps in this realm. You either have the real thing or you don't.

If anything, I think the NCRS standards should be made MORE stringent and well defined, but I appreciate them as they are, which is an attempt to document how these cars originally were built and not really much more.

The bottom line: No matter what you call it, it's still a Chevy. It's just got a fiberglass body and two seats instead of four.

I hope I didn't upset anyone 'cause I called their baby ugly.

Rant over. We now return you to your scheduled programming. :rant:

j3studio

Interesting discussion of something I won't have to worry about for at least another 20 years (assuming I don't give in and buy another Corvette).

:)

There's a lot of discussion on the C5 boards that C5s will be basically impossible to restore at some point because of the electronics. For instance, I don't have a whole lot of confidence that my F55 magnetic suspension will be reparable in 20/25/30 years...

killain

I think that sooner or later, when original parts are simply nonexistant that the NCRS will have to admit in their judging standards that there is allowence for aftermarket parts even though they are not OEM parts. There is really no way to keep finding stocks of original parts and as it is, when cars are checked over at a NCRS event they have no idea what is behind casings and engine blocks. Wires, springs levers and fabrics all can and are aftermarket. Time will sooner or later render an all original Corvette to be one kept in air conditioned storage for ever hour it's not at a show, and I doubt there are many owners who can or will decide to keep their Corvettes in that kind of limbo for very long. You can't enjoy a corvette once you've passed away.