Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush?
I am not sure if this was the case for all Gm cars but I spoke with a gentleman one day about the application method for small parts on early F bodys and he was sure Gm used the same method everywhere.Guess.Chuck ,You should know this one.
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (paintdaddy)
The General didn't do a lot of the small parts, his contractors did and they used a variety of methods. Some such as the brackets for the ignition shielding on '70 and '71 were brushed. Some other parts were sprayed and some were dipped. GM just usually went with the least costly method and did not over do it on the paint.
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (paintdaddy)
Quote:
I am not sure if this was the case for all Gm cars but I spoke with a gentleman one day about the application method for small parts on early F bodys and he was sure Gm used the same method everywhere.
I don't know about F bodies, but almost all the Corvette black parts (body and chassis) were dipped, and you only have to beadblast a lot of parts to confirm this fact. Even when the finish appears smooth without runs, you will find areas on the low side of the parts where the paint accumulates and is slightly greater in thickness; these "runs" require a lot more attention to remove them completely. In some cases, the original parts may also reveal "hanger marks", where the hanging fixture supported the part during the dipping process, and the direction of the "runs" willl confirm the "hanging point".
The original black finish was a thin paint, and when dipped, was a very forgiving finish; i.e. it was quick and easy with virtual "fool-proof" application, and dried quickly to a nice uniform, satin finish. In many cases, restoration of some parts by dip painting can not be duplicated by the anal-retentive hobbyist unless he wants to spring for a couple of barrels of black paint (GM 1050104); they are forced to resort to other means of replicating the finish. Consider, for example, the wiper door mechanism on 70-72 Corvettes...I don't think a 55 gallon drum is deep enough to dip it.
Early in my Corvette enthusiasm, I also believed that the distrbutor ignition shield supports were brush painted orange and painted mine according to the prevailing opinion. But, I think we were misled by the early editions of the NCRS 70-72 judging manual. After a few more years of "learning", I now believe that brush painting of the distributor cover supports was possibly only done on those engines with aluminum manifolds, much as the aluminum manifolds were touched up after painting. I have seen these supports on original cars, and they are NOT brushed.
[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 7:31 AM 10/22/2002]
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (Chuck Sangerhausen)
I recall reading somewhere that even the 'General' wasn't into using 45 gallon drums full of paint to dip large parts, because of the potential wastage. Instead, supposedly, the dipping 'vessel' was mostly filled with water with several inches of paint floating on top. As the part was removed, the paint (mostly oil-based) would displace the water on the part and coat the part. BTW, a good photo re: the drips on dipped parts is found in 'Corvette restoration: State of the Art', wherein David Burroughs shows a side-by side phot of an original and correctly restored (including the drip) bumper bracket.
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (macnav)
Quote:
I recall reading somewhere that even the 'General' wasn't into using 45 gallon drums full of paint to dip large parts, because of the potential wastage. Instead, supposedly, the dipping 'vessel' was mostly filled with water with several inches of paint floating on top. As the part was removed, the paint (mostly oil-based) would displace the water on the part and coat the part. BTW, a good photo re: the drips on dipped parts is found in 'Corvette restoration: State of the Art', wherein David Burroughs shows a side-by side phot of an original and correctly restored (including the drip) bumper bracket.
I haven't seen that source, but it's an interesting idea.
I frankly find this info hard to believe for the midyear and later cars, because 1050104 dries too quickly to be oil-based; it must be lacquer based. It may have depended on the time period of Corvette production the author was discussing. Also, it is likely that the dipping technique varied from one supplier to the next, and the dipping vessels may or may not have been 55 gallon drums. In those instances where hanger fixtures were used, the dipping may have been a special conveyor line with a dipping vat.
What you have to remember is that the dipping was a continuous activity; paint would have been continuously added to make-up for consumption. Any wastage could, at most, have been only the initial fill of the container, and that is not a given since the remaining paint at the end of production year could be recovered and reused. I expect some of these suppliers made similar parts for all of GM's car lines year after year. It seems like the contamination of the painted part with water would have made the process messy with flawed finishing.
I have David Burrough's book and read it years ago. I have to give this particular book credit for making me truly anally-retentive about Corvette restoration. :D :D :D
[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 3:05 PM 10/22/2002]
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (macnav)
I agree with Macnav. They "floated" a layer of oil based paint on top of water. The part was dipped in, and when it was removed the oil based paint on the top coated the part. There was an article in the Corvette Restorer about this several years ago. As I recall, the guy duplicated the dip finish using a 5 gallon bucket of water with a small amount of paint floating on the top. Chuck
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (Chuck Gongloff)
Quote:
There was an article in the Corvette Restorer about this several years ago. As I recall, the guy duplicated the dip finish using a 5 gallon bucket of water with a small amount of paint floating on the top.
I did a article search over on the NCRS site. Of the nine articles found under "paint", I can account for all except the earliest one titled "Painting Techniques", Fall 84, volume 11, issue 2, page 34. Unfortunately, my Restorers are incomplete in the mid to late eighties.
[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 3:27 PM 10/22/2002]
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (macnav)
Quote:
I recall reading somewhere that even the 'General' wasn't into using 45 gallon drums full of paint to dip large parts, because of the potential wastage. Instead, supposedly, the dipping 'vessel' was mostly filled with water with several inches of paint floating on top. As the part was removed, the paint (mostly oil-based) would displace the water on the part and coat the part. BTW, a good photo re: the drips on dipped parts is found in 'Corvette restoration: State of the Art', wherein David Burroughs shows a side-by side phot of an original and correctly restored (including the drip) bumper bracket.
And we have a winner!!All of you may be correct but this was the answer that I was looking for.I didnt beleive it ,so I tried it and it worked .But it only worked with enamels . :D :seeya
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (paintdaddy)
ChuckS. I could be having a "senior moment". I thought I read that article in "The Restorer". I haven't checked the indexes. MIGHT have been another mag, as I get a bunch....Vette, Fever, and others including the Solid Axle club publications. Chuck G.
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (paintdaddy)
Further to my eralier response, as I now recall (memory doesn't come back to me all at once anymore; it kind of 'trickles in') the individual who posted about this method had actually worked the line at either GM or one of the suppliers, and therefore was quoting from actual experience, not hearsay. To address Chuck's point about the paint being fast-drying and therefore likely lacquer versus enamel, I think there are many variations on enamels with respect to quick versus slow-drying, although none are likely as quick drying as lacquer. I doubt that a part dipped in lacquer would display the size of drip shown in Burroughs' book, simply because lacquer is generally thinner than enamel and runs off a part quickly, rather than collecting at a low point as in the drip shown in Burroughs' photograph. Anyway, I'm not the source of the explanation, and I haven't tried it myself. While I was 'impressed' with David Burroughs' depth of research and insight into how things were done at the factory--ie:"... painted by a left-handed indivdual sparying from left to right..." as he described some blackout painting in the wheel well area, I did not fall victim to that level of anal retentiveness. I hang my small parts and spray 'em. If I do well, they DON'T drip...
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (macnav)
No point in arguing about this, because it's only of academic interest anyway. I am not saying it didn't happen...what I am saying is that there is probably more to it than this process being applied to all parts dipping. If you read any reference, and thereafter irrevocably conclude that was the only way it was ever done, you will have only part of the information most of the time. It's good idea to leave your mind open just a crack in case more information comes along. Post the reference and, if I can find it, I will see what the author said in more than ten words.
GM 1050104 (one gallon size) is the exactly the same paint that was used on black body and chassis parts on midyears and sharks. Ron Goduti, a former GM purchasing agent, related to a seminar group on chassis restoration at Bloomington that the paint was purchased in RAIL CARS, not 55 gallon drums. As I said at the beginning of this thread, GM 1050104 is a watery thin paint (sounds like what you said), it has an aromatic smell like lacquer, and it dries fast even when dipped. I have been around paint a long time myself, and I highly doubt that it is oil based...but I will keep my mind open for when more information comes along.
[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 1:40 PM 10/23/2002]
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (Chuck Sangerhausen)
99% of the small steel brackets, braces, etc. that were used in assembly plants were received raw (and oiled to inhibit rust in transit) from the suppliers, and were painted in each plant's dip-prime or "Flo-Coat" system, using a cheap black enamel-based primer. Most Chevrolet plants had the "Flo-Coat" system, which was a series of high-pressure enclosed booths with several cleaning/degreasing/rinsing stages, an iron phosphate stage, then the black prime stage, followed by an oven stage. In each stage, the walls of the booths were covered with nozzles (like showerheads), and the liquid used in that stage was literally flooded on the parts as they passed through the booth on an overhead conveyor; the excess paint that ran off drained into a sump below floor grating and was filtered and recirculated, with more paint added as necessary. Smaller parts were piled in mesh baskets suspended from the conveyor, and larger parts were hung from pins on paint racks made specifically for each part, with anywhere from two to twenty parts per hook.
After the parts left the oven and went through a cooling loop, the conveyor passed through an unload area where the parts were removed, placed in bins, and then taken to the line. The second half of the same floor area was the load area, where more raw parts were loaded on the hooks/baskets. This was known as the "small parts paint" system, and was phased out of all GM assembly plants in the mid-70's in favor of having the suppliers prime the parts so they could go straight from the receiving dock to the line. Wheels had their own separate dip-prime/Flo-Coat system followed by a wheel enamel spray line, and those systems were eliminated at the same time when wheels were no longer painted in colors.
Modern-day assembly plants have no paint facilities at all other than the main body paint system (which is about a $500 million department, and is literally cleaner than a hospital operating room); everything else in the car is received already painted, including the front and rear bumper fascias.
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (JohnZ)
John, you are an invaluable resource to the hobby. I keep hoping you will write all this stuff down before...er, well, you know...before it becomes inaccessible to all these young whippersnapper Corvette dudes coming up. :D :D :D
It sounds like GM 1050104 could be an oil-based enamel...what do I know. But, it sure is thin and it has that light-headed smell like lacquer.
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (Mac)
JohnZ,I guess that is why the bumpers on the late models dont match half of the time.Now I got a stupid question,what is GM 1050104 and do they still make it .If this is called GM reconditioning black ,Thats what I used years ago. :seeya :cheers:
Re: Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush? (paintdaddy)
Quote:
...what is GM 1050104 and do they still make it .If this is called GM reconditioning black ,Thats what I used years ago.
GM reconditioning black is the name, and 1050104 is the part number for the one gallon size. It IS the correct black for restoration of midyear and shark Corvettes, and probably any GM car from the sixties and seventies (don't know about C1s).
The full gallon size usually deters restorers from buying it unless they are doing a full frame-off restoration; they have to resort to JD Blitz Black or Krylon semi-flat black for underhood restos, etc. You can get the GM reconditioning paint in aersol cans, but my understanding is that the spray cans don't contain the same paint.
My experience is it takes about 1.5 gallons of 1050104 for a complete frame-off restoration. Dealers seldom stock the 1050104, but I understand they will usually order it for you if you want a case (4 gallons). To need that much of the stuff, you would have to be in "Restoration Hell" (eternity dipping, spraying, and trying to get the black out of the cracks in your hands).
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Trivia question:How did GM paint small brackets/parts?Spray,brush?
