Repro Console Data Plates
07-06-2002, 07:47 AM
#1
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Repro Console Data Plates
Here's why I gripe about supposed "repro" parts. I wanted to replace the console data plate on the 69. Bought a repro for $8.00 at a flea market. The style and size of the "font" on the lettering didn't match the original. Bought a NOS original on EBAY for $11.00. Here's a pic. Original on top, repro on bottom. Note the MAJOR difference in the size/thickness of the fonts on the data plate. The letters/numbers are probably 3/4 size in "thickness". Why would somebody take the time to make the correct plates, and then stamp them with the wrong size/style lettering? Chuck
[Modified by Chuck Gongloff, 3:35 PM 7/6/2002]
[Modified by Chuck Gongloff, 3:35 PM 7/6/2002]
07-06-2002, 09:51 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
Re: Repro Console Data Plates (Chuck Gongloff)
I noticed the same thing too. :rolleyes: I didn't know they had NOS ones though! How did that one compare? ~Juliet
07-06-2002, 10:06 AM
#3
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Re: Repro Console Data Plates (Juliet)
NOS is dead on the money, identical to the scratched up one on the console of my 69 :) That one's a "survivor". Since it is rumored that people are "restoring" or "building" survivor cars, I plan to sell it for BIG money at Carlisle. Chuck
07-06-2002, 10:08 AM
#4
Le Mans Master
Re: Repro Console Data Plates (Chuck Gongloff)
I plan to sell it for BIG money at Carlisle. Chuck
07-06-2002, 11:30 AM
#5
Le Mans Master
Re: Repro Console Data Plates (Chuck Gongloff)
I just bought a new lens for my A/C control panel at eckler's and noticed the font is bigger than the original... I also bought a new fiber optic lens along with a new low quality shifter boot. The fiber optic lens looks great until you turn the lights on..... License light is very bright and the tail lights are tiny dim dots... I put the old one back on and all three are even defused light. The boot is made in China and very poor quality. What's going on here?
[Modified by silvervetteman, 10:31 AM 7/6/2002]
[Modified by silvervetteman, 10:31 AM 7/6/2002]
07-06-2002, 02:10 PM
#6
Re: Repro Console Data Plates (Chuck Gongloff)
Chuck,
There are some plausible reasons why the data plate font is larger on the reproductions and why it probably will remain that way.
These data plates are “theoretically” produced on the original GM tooling for Custom Mold Dynamics, now know as Trim Parts and are promoted and advertised as a GM licensed Restoration Part.
In 1972 a change was made to the information printed on these data plates. The horsepower data printed from 1969 to 1971 was deleted and the font for the three remaining pieces of data (cubic inches, torque and compression ratio) were enlarged in size.
From 1969 to 1971 a small font was used, that was replaced by this larger font from 1972 to 1976 plates. When the “repro’s” or “re-issues” were released, apparently they continued to use the large font on the earlier data plates also. So where do we assess the blame?
Do we blame the company actually producing these for Tim Parts? Do we blame Trim Parts for not ensuring the oldest tooling was used in current production? Or do we blame GM SPO which “theoretically” requires pre-production samples of licensed parts prior to general release? They are the check to ensure the parts are “just like original”.
Who dropped the ball? In my view, probably the older tooling is no longer available and therefore the interchangeable tools with the later large characters were utilized. Why make new tooling? Can a $8 part re-issued by the OEM supplier to Trim Parts and under GM license be economically produced if new tolling is required? All of the following require a piece of that $8 sale.
The OEM, Trim Parts, GM Restoration Parts and EMI. EMI is Equity Management Inc., a middle man that administers the licensing program for GM and deals with the license holder i.e. Trim Parts. Therefore there are 4 sets of hands collecting a fee from the $8 before the end user – Dr. Chuck Gongoloff makes his purchase. As you may see there are a lot of hands in that $8 pie.
So why doesn’t someone make a “correct” repro. That is very simple. It is not cost effective. It is simply cheaper to “re-issue” the part with the last set of available GM tooling and sell it for $8. Say you or I were to produce at 100% authentic piece, it would absolutely cost more because we would have our own tooling. It would require a major advertising effort to educate the end user that your product was vastly superior to the $8 one because the font was smaller. Hardly worth the effort when one considers the potential market available and the return on ones investment. Additionally the currently available one may even be dumped on the market with a slashed price to defeat your sales further.
Chuck, it is pure economics and there are few who care as much or would pay as much. I have said it countless times: If you want to chase judging points or locate exact duplicates of GM original parts – do not expect to find them as reproductions. Reproductions are for those seeking a reasonable facsimile of the original part at a reasonable price. All other bets are off.
Geoffrey Coenen
NCRS #2473
NCM Lifetime #105
Vettehead #18-1
Retired #1 56, 63, 67, 68, 68, 69, 75, 99 and I want more !
There are some plausible reasons why the data plate font is larger on the reproductions and why it probably will remain that way.
These data plates are “theoretically” produced on the original GM tooling for Custom Mold Dynamics, now know as Trim Parts and are promoted and advertised as a GM licensed Restoration Part.
In 1972 a change was made to the information printed on these data plates. The horsepower data printed from 1969 to 1971 was deleted and the font for the three remaining pieces of data (cubic inches, torque and compression ratio) were enlarged in size.
From 1969 to 1971 a small font was used, that was replaced by this larger font from 1972 to 1976 plates. When the “repro’s” or “re-issues” were released, apparently they continued to use the large font on the earlier data plates also. So where do we assess the blame?
Do we blame the company actually producing these for Tim Parts? Do we blame Trim Parts for not ensuring the oldest tooling was used in current production? Or do we blame GM SPO which “theoretically” requires pre-production samples of licensed parts prior to general release? They are the check to ensure the parts are “just like original”.
Who dropped the ball? In my view, probably the older tooling is no longer available and therefore the interchangeable tools with the later large characters were utilized. Why make new tooling? Can a $8 part re-issued by the OEM supplier to Trim Parts and under GM license be economically produced if new tolling is required? All of the following require a piece of that $8 sale.
The OEM, Trim Parts, GM Restoration Parts and EMI. EMI is Equity Management Inc., a middle man that administers the licensing program for GM and deals with the license holder i.e. Trim Parts. Therefore there are 4 sets of hands collecting a fee from the $8 before the end user – Dr. Chuck Gongoloff makes his purchase. As you may see there are a lot of hands in that $8 pie.
So why doesn’t someone make a “correct” repro. That is very simple. It is not cost effective. It is simply cheaper to “re-issue” the part with the last set of available GM tooling and sell it for $8. Say you or I were to produce at 100% authentic piece, it would absolutely cost more because we would have our own tooling. It would require a major advertising effort to educate the end user that your product was vastly superior to the $8 one because the font was smaller. Hardly worth the effort when one considers the potential market available and the return on ones investment. Additionally the currently available one may even be dumped on the market with a slashed price to defeat your sales further.
Chuck, it is pure economics and there are few who care as much or would pay as much. I have said it countless times: If you want to chase judging points or locate exact duplicates of GM original parts – do not expect to find them as reproductions. Reproductions are for those seeking a reasonable facsimile of the original part at a reasonable price. All other bets are off.
Geoffrey Coenen
NCRS #2473
NCM Lifetime #105
Vettehead #18-1
Retired #1 56, 63, 67, 68, 68, 69, 75, 99 and I want more !
07-06-2002, 02:21 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
Re: Repro Console Data Plates (Doc Rebuild)
In 1972 a change was made to the information printed on these data plates. The horsepower data printed from 1969 to 1971 was deleted and the font for the three remaining pieces of data (cubic inches, torque and compression ratio) were enlarged in size.
From 1969 to 1971 a small font was used, that was replaced by this larger font from 1972 to 1976 plates. When the “repro’s” or “re-issues” were released, apparently they continued to use the large font on the earlier data plates also. So where do we assess the blame?
From 1969 to 1971 a small font was used, that was replaced by this larger font from 1972 to 1976 plates. When the “repro’s” or “re-issues” were released, apparently they continued to use the large font on the earlier data plates also. So where do we assess the blame?
07-06-2002, 04:42 PM
#8
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Re: Repro Console Data Plates (Juliet)
Thanks for your input, Geoffrey. I appreciate it. Every supposed "original" 69 data tag I've seen is the "big" or "fat" font. Noted 69 "gurus" have told me that the "fat" font is correct. The repro's I've seen are all the skinny, thin font. Are you saying that the repro is correct, and that the NOS one is incorrect for 69? Check out the gorgeous 69 you bought from Jerry, and let me know what your console data tag looks like. :) Chuck
07-06-2002, 04:52 PM
#9
Gardening is more fun and rewarding
Chuck:
Life is all about compromises, including manufacturing repro’s. I don’t know which size or exactly style font is original. The only thing I currently reproduce is tomatoes, peppers and squash in my garden and I no nonger sweat the small details. And apparently others also do not.
Whether it is larger now or smaller now is not the real issue. It is different now. It is not exactly like original now. And it is still an $8 part and I doubt that whoever makes it for Trim Parts will ever make any significant changes.
When GM discontinues a part purchased from an outside source, a Scrap Tool Order is issued to that subcontractor to sell the original tooling for scrap and reimburse GM for that tool’s scrap valve. Until the advent of EMI and GM Restoration parts less than a decade ago, I doubt few tools were retained by the subcontractors when they would not be producing parts for sale to GM.
Today, if it a part later becomes licensed, a new tool is made or if the original tool is still available it may be utilized. I have several of these Scrap Orders notices and would post them, but I am not allowed to do so. Therefore you will have to take my word for it, or rely on other authorities that know these processes ands procedures.
Since the data on this $8 data plate is silk screened onto the plate, I doubt the original silk screen masks were saved or utilized again. And when new masks were made, I doubt anyone used their Vernier caliper to exactly measure the fonts from an old data plate or exactly duplicate them. Lest we forget, this is an $8 reproduction part made by a big company, licensed by another another big company.
I am not making any excuses for anyone’s repro that is not 100% identical. Just merely illustrating the out stretched hands taking part of that $8 pie and the economic and realities involved. Personally, my view is the larger the organizations involved, the lesser the probability the item will be 100% accurate and still sell for a nominal fee.
Geoffrey Coenen
NCRS #2473
NCM Lifetime #105
Vettehead #18-1
Retired #1 56, 63, 67, 68, 68, 69, 75, 99 and I want more !
PS The AC/Heater climate control lenses are also silk screened and therein also lies that answer. And they are also EMI-GM Restoration Parts licensed by Trim Parts and then wholesale far and wide for a nominal fee. As for the aftermarket Chinese leather shift boots someone is supplying, I know that GM still supplies an original one for $126 and it is made in Ohio. What’s a measly $100 difference in price?
Life is all about compromises, including manufacturing repro’s. I don’t know which size or exactly style font is original. The only thing I currently reproduce is tomatoes, peppers and squash in my garden and I no nonger sweat the small details. And apparently others also do not.
Whether it is larger now or smaller now is not the real issue. It is different now. It is not exactly like original now. And it is still an $8 part and I doubt that whoever makes it for Trim Parts will ever make any significant changes.
When GM discontinues a part purchased from an outside source, a Scrap Tool Order is issued to that subcontractor to sell the original tooling for scrap and reimburse GM for that tool’s scrap valve. Until the advent of EMI and GM Restoration parts less than a decade ago, I doubt few tools were retained by the subcontractors when they would not be producing parts for sale to GM.
Today, if it a part later becomes licensed, a new tool is made or if the original tool is still available it may be utilized. I have several of these Scrap Orders notices and would post them, but I am not allowed to do so. Therefore you will have to take my word for it, or rely on other authorities that know these processes ands procedures.
Since the data on this $8 data plate is silk screened onto the plate, I doubt the original silk screen masks were saved or utilized again. And when new masks were made, I doubt anyone used their Vernier caliper to exactly measure the fonts from an old data plate or exactly duplicate them. Lest we forget, this is an $8 reproduction part made by a big company, licensed by another another big company.
I am not making any excuses for anyone’s repro that is not 100% identical. Just merely illustrating the out stretched hands taking part of that $8 pie and the economic and realities involved. Personally, my view is the larger the organizations involved, the lesser the probability the item will be 100% accurate and still sell for a nominal fee.
Geoffrey Coenen
NCRS #2473
NCM Lifetime #105
Vettehead #18-1
Retired #1 56, 63, 67, 68, 68, 69, 75, 99 and I want more !
PS The AC/Heater climate control lenses are also silk screened and therein also lies that answer. And they are also EMI-GM Restoration Parts licensed by Trim Parts and then wholesale far and wide for a nominal fee. As for the aftermarket Chinese leather shift boots someone is supplying, I know that GM still supplies an original one for $126 and it is made in Ohio. What’s a measly $100 difference in price?
07-07-2002, 09:42 AM
#10
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Re: Gardening is more fun and rewarding (Doc Rebuild)
Thanks Geoff. Maybe I'm wrong, but my gut feeling tells me that most of the cost would be in the reproduction of the plate itself. The "data" is silk screened on. I for one am willing to pay three to four times the $8.00 cost for a "correct" part. If the correct silk screen was made with the correct font, it wouldn't be a problem.
I have had all of my cars judged at NCRS many times, and these little things are the items that thay "pick" you to death over. Here's the way it goes.....original part with wear...scratches, etc.,....lose a point or two on condition. Buy an "incorrect" repro.....lose a point or two on originality. :) You gotta love it.
I gave up growing veggies years ago. Too many "critters" of the woods where I live. My garden ended up as an animal feeding station. Also, since all the crops come in at the same time, neighbors would chase you down the street with zuchini and tomatoes, trying to get rid of them. I now have the best of both worlds...no garden, no work, and fresh stuff all summer. Love it. Chuck
I have had all of my cars judged at NCRS many times, and these little things are the items that thay "pick" you to death over. Here's the way it goes.....original part with wear...scratches, etc.,....lose a point or two on condition. Buy an "incorrect" repro.....lose a point or two on originality. :) You gotta love it.
I gave up growing veggies years ago. Too many "critters" of the woods where I live. My garden ended up as an animal feeding station. Also, since all the crops come in at the same time, neighbors would chase you down the street with zuchini and tomatoes, trying to get rid of them. I now have the best of both worlds...no garden, no work, and fresh stuff all summer. Love it. Chuck
07-07-2002, 02:13 PM
#11
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Gardening is more fun and rewarding (Chuck Gongloff)
I gave up growing veggies years ago. Too many "critters" of the woods where I live. My garden ended up as an animal feeding station. Also, since all the crops come in at the same time, neighbors would chase you down the street with zuchini and tomatoes, trying to get rid of them. I now have the best of both worlds...no garden, no work, and fresh stuff all summer.
There is a special flavour in our 'fresh from the garden' veggies. It's probably the gunk she sprays to fend off the slugs. ;)
07-07-2002, 03:33 PM
#12
Re: Gardening is more fun and rewarding (Chuck Gongloff)
Chuck,
You are absolutely right. The major cost is the small blanking die for the metal plate itself. The other costs are even less. It would cost no more to print the authentic style/size information. The 2 main points are the size of the 4 organization that take a cut of the $8 price before it even gets to the end user. There is little incentive to do it right, because 1) most people don’t know it’s different and 2) there is no new alternative to that GM Licensed Restoration Part and 3) an $8 part that only fits a few Vettes is not going to make anyone do otherwise
Admit it Chuck, you may pay 4X the $8 price for a brand new one that is dead on authentic, but at $32 or even at $24 a data plate would leave a bad taste in your mouth, as in kind of expensive for a flat tinny painted repro. Many would view it as a rip off. Almost any part can be reproduced, but that has to be balanced with price that allows a fair return and the consumer feeling he has not been gouged. And you are a perfectionist with your vehicles and can afford to be so. Next time at Carlisle, I will have to check out your teeth. They are probably near perfect also, and fittingly so. Me, my teeth have had lots of “restoration”. None Top Flight.
I am surrounded by a 300 acre forest with abundant deer and turkey. My garden is surrounded with that green plastic mesh fencing and corrugated metal stakes with numerous hooks to bend over. It’s all Home Depot stuff: cheap and easy to install. I over planted and thought some would fail, however it is abundant. You are right about it all coming at once. But, I will bring the extra to Carlisle and have something to sell. Special discount on tomatoes for Camel Riders.
Geoffrey Coenen
NCRS #2473
NCM Lifetime #105
Vettehead #18-1
Retired #1 56, 63, 67, 68, 68, 69, 75, 99 and I want more !
You are absolutely right. The major cost is the small blanking die for the metal plate itself. The other costs are even less. It would cost no more to print the authentic style/size information. The 2 main points are the size of the 4 organization that take a cut of the $8 price before it even gets to the end user. There is little incentive to do it right, because 1) most people don’t know it’s different and 2) there is no new alternative to that GM Licensed Restoration Part and 3) an $8 part that only fits a few Vettes is not going to make anyone do otherwise
Admit it Chuck, you may pay 4X the $8 price for a brand new one that is dead on authentic, but at $32 or even at $24 a data plate would leave a bad taste in your mouth, as in kind of expensive for a flat tinny painted repro. Many would view it as a rip off. Almost any part can be reproduced, but that has to be balanced with price that allows a fair return and the consumer feeling he has not been gouged. And you are a perfectionist with your vehicles and can afford to be so. Next time at Carlisle, I will have to check out your teeth. They are probably near perfect also, and fittingly so. Me, my teeth have had lots of “restoration”. None Top Flight.
I am surrounded by a 300 acre forest with abundant deer and turkey. My garden is surrounded with that green plastic mesh fencing and corrugated metal stakes with numerous hooks to bend over. It’s all Home Depot stuff: cheap and easy to install. I over planted and thought some would fail, however it is abundant. You are right about it all coming at once. But, I will bring the extra to Carlisle and have something to sell. Special discount on tomatoes for Camel Riders.
Geoffrey Coenen
NCRS #2473
NCM Lifetime #105
Vettehead #18-1
Retired #1 56, 63, 67, 68, 68, 69, 75, 99 and I want more !
