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Old 12-22-2012, 12:54 PM   #41
JoesC5
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Originally Posted by hig4s View Post
There was the limited production 67 Z28 with dual four barrel carb option that had 400hp. Z28s in 67 were not listed in GM sales brochures. And I believe it was a souped up high reving 302 small block so it could compete in the Trans AM series racing.

Either way, my point was it is hard to believe GM will produce only a base Corvette with 450 to 470hp when they have a couple of over 500hp Camaros selling at the same time.
They wll produce a base Vette with less horsepower then the optional high horsepower in a Camaro, and they will offer a high horsepower optional engine in the Vette just as they did in 67.

In 1957, the base horsepower of the Corvette was 220. Chevy also offered a 1957 full size car with many different engine options, from the base I6 to the 283 fuel injected V8.

With the Camaro offering an optional engine with more horsepower then the base Corvette, they are sticking with a 50+ year game plan.

PS-in 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964 they offered a larger horsepower engine in the full size car then they offered as an optional engine in the Corvette.

1959-
Corvette..base 230 HP......290 HP
Full size car.....335 HP

and in 1964-
Corvette.. base 250 HP.....375 HP
Full size car.....425 HP

Having another Chevy model with more horsepower then the base engine in the Corvette is nothing new(or shocking).

Last edited by JoesC5; 12-22-2012 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:07 PM   #42
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However, I wonder if gm will stick a "428" badge on it this time around(sorry, just stirring the pot)...
Maybe it should be 426, just so it's less than Corvette.
Of course, both 428 and 426 have non-Chevy brand associations...

How about tweaking Mustang fans by putting a big 7.0 badge on the fender?

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Originally Posted by hig4s View Post
...it is hard to believe GM will produce only a base Corvette with 450 to 470hp when they have a couple of over 500hp Camaros selling at the same time.
Several manufacturers have the high-performance variant of a model take a year (or more) off when there's a new generation. They don't then neuter the rest of their product line to avoid offending anyone's sensibilities.

Everybody knows a higher-spec Corvette is coming. It's a short-term lapse of availability, effectively reduced to zero if you consider new ZR1s still on dealer lots, not a permanent shift in the balance of Chevy power.

And if you still think you have a case, please don't use the word "flagship" in your reply. It doesn't change anything.

.Jinx
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:42 AM   #43
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Even if only a limited-edition Z28 Camaro, this would be great news for current LS7 owners, as it would indicate GM's continued commitment to this engine.

The LS7 is probably still the best designed engine of any N-A Corvette (505HP with a 7K redline), including being better than the new LT1, which is more compromised by fuel-economy requirements. The knock on the LS7 has been supplier parts QC, which GM better have worked out if they plan on continuing such a benchmark engine design.

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Old 12-24-2012, 01:04 AM   #44
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Even if only a limited-edition Z28 Camaro, this would be great news for current LS7 owners, as it would indicate GM's continued commitment to this engine.
Continued for a year, perhaps, but it doesn't indicate anything beyond that. It seems like one last encore to me.

Hey, maybe they'll build a few Silverados with the LS7 too. After all, it's in its final year.

Or how about a CTS 427?

Have I forgotten anything?
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:38 AM   #45
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Continued for a year, perhaps, but it doesn't indicate anything beyond that. It seems like one last encore to me.

Hey, maybe they'll build a few Silverados with the LS7 too. After all, it's in its final year.

Or how about a CTS 427?

Have I forgotten anything?
Fair point, but it feels like GM was thinking of just slipping out the back door regarding any LS7 QC issues, and carrying it into a 2014 may extend the time frame under which they have to respond to LS7 owners.

By the way, I never completely understood why GM would introduce a ZL1 Camaro with only 14/19 MPG, when the 427/Z06 Corvette can do so much better. 580HP and still 2nd place to a Shelby is still 2nd place, but with lousy gas milage. I might have bought a Z28 if it had been a 427 with 505HP and 15/22 MPG or higher.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:18 AM   #46
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Fair point, but it feels like GM was thinking of just slipping out the back door regarding any LS7 QC issues, and carrying it into a 2014 may extend the time frame under which they have to respond to LS7 owners.

By the way, I never completely understood why GM would introduce a ZL1 Camaro with only 14/19 MPG, when the 427/Z06 Corvette can do so much better. 580HP and still 2nd place to a Shelby is still 2nd place, but with lousy gas milage. I might have bought a Z28 if it had been a 427 with 505HP and 15/22 MPG or higher.
Well when they were coming out with the ZL1 Camaro it wasn't 2nd place to the Shelby. In 2011 and 2012 the GT500 was 550 HP. Camaro coming out with an estimated 550, and actually releasing with 580 was GM one-upping the Shelby. They just got immediately one-upped again since Ford waited until their announcement to announce the 2013 GT500 numbers of estimated 650, which then ended up being certified to 662.

As far as the dismal gas mileage, the Ford does have a 3.31 rear end vs. 3.70 in the ZL1, and also weighs almost 300 lbs less. 5th and 6th are also geared more aggressively in the Camaro, so it doesn't have as deep as an over drive. Still you would think with the power deficiency it would be a little closer.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:21 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
Maybe it should be 426, just so it's less than Corvette.
Of course, both 428 and 426 have non-Chevy brand associations...

How about tweaking Mustang fans by putting a big 7.0 badge on the fender?



Several manufacturers have the high-performance variant of a model take a year (or more) off when there's a new generation. They don't then neuter the rest of their product line to avoid offending anyone's sensibilities.

Everybody knows a higher-spec Corvette is coming. It's a short-term lapse of availability, effectively reduced to zero if you consider new ZR1s still on dealer lots, not a permanent shift in the balance of Chevy power.

And if you still think you have a case, please don't use the word "flagship" in your reply. It doesn't change anything.

.Jinx

I seem to remember when I was living in Detroit, working as a supplier to the auto industry back in the 80s, one of the models of Firebirds had as much or more HP and was beating the Corvette's track times.. The President of GM went ballistic and and insisted from then on the Corvette had to be the better handling and higher horsepower car.. (After all, the original reason the Firebird exists at all is that in 69 Pontiac wanted to build a 2 seater sports car and the head of GM wouldn't allow it because it would be competition for the Corvette) Those were both different presidents, but if that has changed why don't the CTS-V and ZL1 both have the same 630hp as the ZR1, it is the same engine?

Maybe they will only produce a base model Corvette the first year, but is seems contrary to the way things have been done since. I'm really expecting a 600hp version fairly quickly.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:59 AM   #48
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I seem to remember when I was living in Detroit, working as a supplier to the auto industry back in the 80s, one of the models of Firebirds had as much or more HP and was beating the Corvette's track times.. The President of GM went ballistic and and insisted from then on the Corvette had to be the better handling and higher horsepower car..
Cool story. Any evidence, or did someone just make it up?

Also, that was over twenty years ago.

Since then they put the LS6 in the first-gen CTS-V with 50hp more than the base Corvette, they put the LS1 and LS2 in the Pontiac GTO without detuning it, and despite the whining from some old farts here the world kept turning.

Quote:
If that has changed why don't the CTS-V and ZL1 both have the same 630hp as the ZR1, it is the same engine?
It is not the same engine. Go research the differences and come back when you think you have a good explanation for why the $65K sports sedan and the $55K pony car don't have the same engine as the $120K sports car.

Quote:
Maybe they will only produce a base model Corvette the first year, but is seems contrary to the way things have been done since.
Like in 2005? Come on, man, this is hardly Corvette arcana.

Quote:
I'm really expecting a 600hp version fairly quickly.
Sure, we all expect another "king of the hill" Corvette, but not in the first model year.

.Jinx
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by hig4s View Post
I seem to remember when I was living in Detroit, working as a supplier to the auto industry back in the 80s, one of the models of Firebirds had as much or more HP and was beating the Corvette's track times.. The President of GM went ballistic and and insisted from then on the Corvette had to be the better handling and higher horsepower car.. (After all, the original reason the Firebird exists at all is that in 69 Pontiac wanted to build a 2 seater sports car and the head of GM wouldn't allow it because it would be competition for the Corvette) Those were both different presidents, but if that has changed why don't the CTS-V and ZL1 both have the same 630hp as the ZR1, it is the same engine?

Maybe they will only produce a base model Corvette the first year, but is seems contrary to the way things have been done since. I'm really expecting a 600hp version fairly quickly.
It isn't the same engine. The CTS-V and ZL1 use the LSA, that doesn't have forged pistons and uses a smaller version of the TVS blower (1.9L/rev vs. 2.3L/rev for LS9), while the ZR1 uses the LS9. IIRC the stock boost pressure for LSA is ~9 vs. 10.5 for the LS9.
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:57 PM   #50
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This might make me want to get into another 5th gen Camaro, curious to see how this all shakes out
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:45 PM   #51
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:19 AM   #52
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Not "production car" wise. 97 SS's were lt1's. 97 slp prepared SS and WS6 were lt4's. From what I understand, they are considerably rare, along the lines of 200 or so between firebird/camaro.
This is what I would bet on. Very few, less than 1000, LS7 2014 Camaros. I think GM might do this to keep PBC building something current while the high-po C7 motor comes online. Also, I think they might be interested in maintaining LS7 supply chain to help deal with LS7 warranty issues from the head problem.

I would not bet on a Z28 name though. I'd guess SS 427 or maybe just a 427 option, like the '427' convertible C6. If we were following history the 427 Camaro would be called the ZL1.

I think there is reasonable chance this is all just a big head fake too. Sometimes I wonder if guys at GM just like to f*** with all of us with stuff like this.

Now, if they do in fact make a LS7 Camaro, and happen to make a track package and somehow drop the weight to 3500lbs, heck I might buy one...
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Old 12-30-2012, 12:29 AM   #53
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If GM has some left over 505 H.P. 7.0 ltr Z06 motors they want to get rid of, I will gladly take a New C7 with one in it.

Last edited by Flex182; 12-30-2012 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:45 AM   #54
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But this is madness. How can GM expect the 2014 Corvette to sell with a measly 450hp when you can get a Camaro for probably thousands less with over 500hp? They're undercutting their own product.
At the 2011 Bash, the Vett PM clearly stated that GM does not consider the Camaro as market competition for the Vett. Apparently GM does not believe that people cross shop the Camaro and the Vett. He also stated that the Camaro would NOT be limited in performance offerings because of what the Vett offered. The Mustang and other muscle cars are considered Camaro competition. The Vett is placed against other "sports cars" such as the Porsche, Ferrari, Viper, etc. It appears that the last year of the Camaro will offer a higher power engine than the C7 Vett. Be ready for magazine articles that headline "Camaro beats Vett at ...... race track" or "Camaro beats Vett in performance."
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:28 PM   #55
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I bet the ATS-V engine will be built there. If they screw up and don't just make it an LT1, that is.

It makes a lot of sense for GM to offer a special edition Camaro with the LS7. It's a fine swan song for both the Fifth-Gen and the LS7, and it's hardly a big engineering job. Drop it into the ZL1 chassis, tune the suspension a skosh for the lighter nose, then hand it over to Styling for a new tie and pocket square.

It'll pimp-slap the Boss 302. Camaro 1LE buyers might kick themselves for not waiting a little longer, though.
LS7 in the 5th gen is still trying to polish a turd.

The ZL1 is competition for the GT500 not Boss & the 2013 Gt500 rapes the **** out of the ZL1.
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:56 PM   #56
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LS7 in the 5th gen is still trying to polish a turd.

The ZL1 is competition for the GT500 not Boss & the 2013 Gt500 rapes the **** out of the ZL1.
You missed the point. A Camaro with an LS7 would slot below the ZL1 and would beat the Boss handily. And no, the GT500 does not rape the ZL1, it just has more horsepower.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:01 PM   #57
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It isn't the same engine. The CTS-V and ZL1 use the LSA, that doesn't have forged pistons and uses a smaller version of the TVS blower (1.9L/rev vs. 2.3L/rev for LS9), while the ZR1 uses the LS9. IIRC the stock boost pressure for LSA is ~9 vs. 10.5 for the LS9.

You missed the point,, the reason they didn't use the forged pistons and the larger blower on the SAME engine to make the SAME horsepower is because it has been GM's policy for a long time to not allow any other GM car, especially an F-body to upstage the Corvette in power or handling.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:05 PM   #58
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BG over at ls1tech made the following remark about the LS7 for the future

"Twin Turbo will be seen sooner then most can expect. Yes a H.O LS7 will be introduced in two future vehicles. That is ALL that I will elaborate on. Any additional questions will be disregarded."
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:28 PM   #59
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You missed the point,, the reason they didn't use the forged pistons and the larger blower on the SAME engine to make the SAME horsepower is because it has been GM's policy for a long time to not allow any other GM car, especially an F-body to upstage the Corvette in power or handling.
Cost probably had a lot to do with it also. Both applications of the LSA are much cheaper than the ZR1. When the LSA was concieved for the CTS-V, it was pitted against the M5's ~500hp, so the full 638 hp LS9 was probably overkill and would drive the price of the car up more than desired. Fast forward to when the ZL1 was coming out and the GT500 had just upgraded from 500 hp to 550hp, the ZL1 releasing with 580 was considered "enough". They just didn't count on the fact that Ford had the 5.8L 662hp up their sleeve.

Or maybe they did and just didn't care, as it is now clear that the ZR1 is a great all around performance car and designed to be very track capable off the show room floor. The GT500 is fast in a straight line, and on many tracks (but not all)-especially those that favor power can beat the ZL1 for a lap or two, then the brakes fade and it falls off the pace.

Last edited by CPhelps; 12-30-2012 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:38 PM   #60
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In other news the Camaro will receive round tail lights making it GM's new halo car.







:P
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:38 PM
 
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