69 N.O.X. RATT

Since the new rear and tranny should handle 1000 hp, I figure I should make 1000 hp :D

I am going to stay with a 454 +.030. same heads (ported Edelbrock oval) Victor Jr, solid roller 255 / 262 at .050 .652 lift on a 112 LSA installed on a 110.5 ICL. Same annular 1000 HP Holley, same compression 10.8 to 1.

Changes to the Motor:

I have a stock GM 4.00 stroke cast crank, its gotta go. I have a possible deal on a new Sonny Bryant crank. If I can get it for what the price appears to be I will jump on it. Next in line is a Lunati then Eagle.

The current rods are factory L-88 rods with Milidon bolts. It may be overkill but I want this motor to live at 7500 rpms, so I will replace the rods also, possible deal on Carrillo, or Lunati.

Adding a Big shot plate (starting at 100 hp) to be used in first gear on the launch. After seeing the artwork Mondello did to ML67's intake (and the supposed distribution issues stock Victor Jr.s have) I will have the intake ported and flowed also.

Adding a Magna flow 275 or 500 pump to feed the motor and the plate. I am going to add a front mounted (in front of the motor) fuel cell to feed both nitrous system. I plan on a max of 350 shot of nitrous (plate and Fogger combined) and since it is front mounted I may run both systems off my 140 gph pump that now feeds my motor. I have also considered running the plate and motor off the 275 pump, and the Fogger off the 140 and the front fuel cell.

Rear end: I already have a Tom's 12 bolt spool I.R.S. (with the huge half shafts, u-jount, axels, etc) that will go in when I pull the motor and tranny

Tranny: Liberty (makes all the Pro Stock trannys) is working on a street / strip version of the Richmond 6 spd. They are going to take the Richmond guts out of the tranny and replace it with their stuff. It will be a 5 spd when they are done. It will be a face plate tranny with no synchros (not for the faint of heart !) but will down shift and be reasonably streetable. Liberty says it will be good for 1000 hp in a heavy car. At 3500.00 it is 2000.00 less than the G-Force GF-5R that is rated at 1200 hp. Best of all I get the same Liberty shifter handle you see in all the Pro Stock cars :lol:

Clutch and flywheel: I will use the same McLoed dual disk Jim, Steve and Mark are using in thier 540 67's. Since I have to replace the flywheel I am seriously considering an aluminum flywheel, particularly since I want to spin this to 7500 rpms.

I will have the timing chain gear bushed (degree inserts) so I can run the cam straight up.

Increase ring gap to .007 per inch of bore diameter, .0030 total ring gap.

Run 1/2 line from tank to regulators on the motor side.

I am considering going to 2 1/8 in headers, from the current 1 7/8.

Rear gears to be determined when Liberty decides the tranny gears.

1/4 mile goals (don't laugh) 9.5 or better, at 140 or faster.

Any comments or critiques :yesnod:


[Modified by 69 N.O.X. RATT, 11:25 PM 11/15/2003]

norvalwilhelm

So John you are going for the 4.250 stoker crank? for 48? cubic inches. I am not a fan of Victor Junior intakes. I have one with a nitrous system built right into it sitting in the closet and I didn't like it as well as my highly modified LS6 high rise intake.
The cam is not that wild at 255/262 and especially the 112 lobe centers. I much prefer 108 for mid and top end charge. The 112 is good for idle vacuum. John I ran a 256,264 @ .050 108 lobe centers, .648 lift and the modified LS6 intake with 150 horse shot of nitrous then to improve that combination went with my present 236,244 @ .050 112 lobe center roller cam and Victor junior intake with the same 150 horse shot of nitrous and the motor was way down on power. It totally lacked that top end charge.
Setting up cams with the intake lobe center is not a good idea and hard to get accurate, degreeing with the .050 cam specs is alot better.
You are talking about alot of durability improvements which is good but how are they going to get the extra horse to come up with 1000HP?
John I know you will do it but other then the crank what are you changing? Rods won't help horsepower, sure help hold it together, same with the pump, rearend and transmission.
Hope you are enjoying the Bike :) :)

69 N.O.X. RATT

Norval: I am staying with the 4.00 stroke, just looking for a much stronger crank. I hope the deal for the Bryant comes through.

I know of the problems with the Victor Jr, saying that though my car went 125 mph in the 1/4 with an unmodified one. The reason I am going to work mine over is for a little extra power and better distribution for the nitrous.

I know the closer LSA makes for a better mid range punch but I am going to leave mine alone due to the fact it will be a high rpm 5 speed with a lot of NOS. The wider LSA traps a lot more of the nitrous.

I degree the cam the same way you do, at .050 measurments.

After the intake gets ported and I install the cam straight up I think an honest estimate for my motor would be 650 hp. Add a 350 shot of nitrous and you get 1000. You are right Norval I am trying to make the bottom end as stout as possible to live for a while. I have face to face access to some very good nitrous tuners who opened up shop just down the street, and the owner of the company is a buddy of mine. Once the motor is done I may dyno it on a stand but will definately chassis dyno it. I should probably dyno it on a stand so I have easy access to all the plugs running that much nitrous. If it makes 950 + on the stand and 800 + on the chassis (open headers) I will be happy. It is a street car and I will not kill it trying to squeeze every last .01th out of it.

I am very much enjoying the bike, over 200 miles since Monday. I got cought in a cold rain storm this morning, that was pretty misserable. I was only 15 minutes from home thankfully.

The Green Rocket

You know, somehow I had a feeling you were growing jaded with your current power - I don't know if I've ever met anyone else who was so hooked on insane acceleration after only a few drag strip passes! Most people step up over time, but for sure that's not you.

Naturally I will encourage such madness :) Of course you know my 1,000 hp recipie. Although higher quality parts by themself don't make any extra horsepower, they do lengthen the intervals between inspection teardowns.

For fuel system advice I am a big fan of Product Engineering, http://www.producteng.com Although when I tried their website just now I got nothing - which worries me. If you do get through to the website call their phone # listed for tech advice. The company founder/chief engineer will talk your ears off with technical saavy, absolutely an incredible technical resource on fuel systems and a whole lot more. I am not familiar with the MagnaFlow pumps - since your Vette is street driven make sure those pumps are rated for continuous duty operation (some big electric pumps can only run for 20 minutes or so at a time before they need to shut off to cool down).

Juan Mendoza at Flow Technology reworked the Victor Jr that I used on my 496, he never mentioned anything to me about distribution issues on this manifold. The cylinder to cylinder exhaust temps were all in a reasonable range, so I guess fuel distribution is close enough.

I'm not a nitrous player, so the following may represent my ignorance. With a big load of nitrous I believe you could dial in your power at a much lower rpm and greatly increase the longentivity of the engine.

Thomas

632C2

John: Don't be afraid to make your dyno runs on a chassis dyno. I checked every one of my plugs after every run with no problems at all.

You might be in for a rude awakening when you try to find an engine dyno shop that will allow you to dyno your motor on nitrous. I am looking into buying an engine dyno right now and the only one out there that says they can handle nitrous is DTS - to the tune of $53K! The problem is how much torque is developed the instant nitrous is activated and the load control valve can't handle it.

Everything you have outlined will aid in your motor's ability to handle the nitrous.

Steve

69 N.O.X. RATT

Tom: I agree the lower rpm range would be lots easier on parts. The problem I have is the tranny I am going to use will have a 4th gear of approx. 1.19. The highest rear gear availible for a 12 bolt spool is 3.73, add that to a 28 in. tire and you see my probelm. If I shift into 5th that would solve the problem. With this motor combination shifting into 5th may slow me down and it would be nice to have somewhat of an overdrive in 5th. I also like to over build stuff anyway. If I build it to handle 7500 + rpms and over 1000 hp and it only sees 7000 rpms and 950 hp, so be it. I fore see shift points in the 6500 rpm range, but may have to run it out in high gear to higher rpms.

I will check but I thought the Magna flow pumps were ok for the street.

Steve: I will keep that in mind about the dyno. I would hope in this area I could find a dyno to handle this motor.

Anybody have an opinion on which header size would be better. ?

632C2

2-1/8" headers will be the way to go.

ML67

I think your combination looks nice. Of course You could step up to an aftermarket block and start w/ a 540 shortblock and your 1000 HP goal on nitrous just got 100+ HP easier!

Can't speak to the distribution issues w/ the Vic Jr as I haven't run mine yet, however I have a good friend who runs an unmodified one on his 64 502 Vette and it runs like a watch. Very streetable w/consistent 126 mph on the motor and 135 w/ nitrous. His plugs do not suggest *any* distribution issues.

I take it you like the cam? I liked it very much, but with ~ 100 additional cubes, I can afford to go more aggressive. As far as nitrous, I can't comment as I've played exclusively w/ normally aspirated engines.

Jim and Steve run Aeromotive fuel pumps IIRC. You may want to ask them for their opinion.

I like my McLeod twin disk clutch. I run an aluminum flywheel, previously I ran a steel one. Not a big difference IMO. With the level of power you are planning on squeeze, you may want to consider a steel flywheel for durability. Granted Steve really pushed the envelope w/ his nasty nitrous 542, he did crack an aluminum flywheel on one of his many chassis dyno flogs.

When will you have the transmission? Take pictures please.

I think your plan sounds great!

Take care,

Mark

PS Ditto on the headers -- 2 1/8"

69 N.O.X. RATT

I have talked to Liberty a few times in the last month or so and the tranny is still in R and D. The issue now is what the gear ratios are going to be. They are leaning towards stock ROD gear ratios with a 1st gear of approx. 2.8 The say the tranny will be ready for sale early next year.

The Magna flow pumps are just lying around at Mike's new nitrous shop so I can get them for next to nothing

Believe me I was leaning towards a 540 or bigger. Then I thought I should get some track time with this combination. If I went the 540 route I would be right back at where I was, more power then my drivetrain can handle and I would be breaking parts again and not getting any runs in. I think 900-1000 hp should keep me plenty excited for at least a year.

Yes I love that cam. I will email you the dyno chart from it, flat as a board and kept climbing to 6500 when I shut it down (cast crank) will run it next time to at least 7000

Mcleod is not to far from my house. I plan on taking a trip over there and getting some first hand info on the clutch, flywheel and how to tune the combination to not break parts and get down the track. I was thinking aluminum only due to the possible rpm range, steel may be better.

Thanks for the opinions everybody :chevy

427Hotrod

Boy..building new HP is fun!

If you can lay your hands on a nice Sonny Bryant crank, you've got about the best going. It's about the std. of the industry in Top Fuel and Pro Mod racing.

The old 7/16" rods are pretty tough, but I'm sure some of the aftermarket items are a bit stronger. Considering your goals, this is a time to think strength, not lightweight. RPM is what normally is hardest on rods. With nitrous you typically make power at lower RPM which is a plus, but with insane cylinder pressures the rods have to be awful strong.

I've seen some pretty hefty cars run into the low 10's/high 9's with ported oval port heads. When running N/A they are not much a detriment on a 454 size motor. But remember that when adding nitrous, you are introducing a lot of "stuff" into the intake and port that N/A didn't bring in. They usually respond very well to larger ports and intakes. All that extra "stuff" has to be somewhere and if the runner tract was right N/A, it stands to reason introducing more volume will help. You can't go crazy since you are still only dealing with atmosheric pressure to get it in there, but don't be scared of using big stuff. Blowers respond to bigger stuff even better.

Nitrous also allows you to not have to go crazy on cam selection etc. The one you have looks like a heck of a starting place for your plans. It's big on exhaust side and has wide LSA.

On the rear gear thing....maybe there are other ways. I know that the reason Tom's only uses 3.73's on these 12 bolt conversion deals is that the case gets weak with any more grinding for ring gear clearance. If he used any numerically lower gears, the pinion gear gets larger which forces ring gear over against case. He used to machine the ring gear diameter smaller (about .100 or so) and the pinion head thinner (about .375 or so) to get it all to fit. He now has gears made with the machine work already done. I haven't done any measuring recently, but maybe you could get a 3.55 or 3.31 gear set and really do some comparison to what you currently have. You *might* be able to machine ring gear "thinner" to make it all fit. They make thick gears to install "4 series" gears on the "thin 3 series" posi. Maybe they make "thin" 3 series gears to go on 4 series carrier? I dunno for sure, but I'm sure there is a solution to install less gear on a 12 bolt carrier in a Vette diff.

Maybe even check out the 8.5" 10 bolt stuff. I know...10 bolt....but hold on. There are a bunch of 9 and even 8 sec cars running those "corporate 10 bolts" and they hold up fine. They use 12 bolt size bearings I believe, and you can get spools and posi's to fit any axle (very common stuff). If I'm not mistaken some of them even have larger pinion shafts than 12 bolts! The 12 bolt has an 8.875 ring gear right? So whack off the .100 or so diameter to fit Vette housing and you're down to 8.775 or so. All of a sudden that extra .135 or so on diameter on each side of gear doesn't look like such a huge deal! Maybe you can get a posi or spool from one of them installed in the Vette deal. When the 12 bolt deal was conceived there were no other options. Maybe there are these days! What about the gear sets they make to install 12 bolt type gears in a 9"? Is there any thing there that might be able to work.

They didn't make anything less than a 3.54 for a Dana 60 either, but they did make a 3.07 for a Dana 61. We took a set of those gears and cut ring gear thinner by .060 to make it all fit. There is a way usually...you just have to do a little digging!

I'm really interested in how this Libert deal comes out. Who know's when I am going to need that stuff? :smash:


JIM

69 N.O.X. RATT

Jim: I agree if I can get a Bryant crank I will do it. As you know I have a friend who works there. I have learned a lot from him, even a few "secrets" of some of the pro teams.

I think my intake ports are 295-300 cc. They are a little bigger than a Fel Pro 1212 intake gasket. I know the larger ports would help, but if I get new heads then I will want a new intake, bigger engine, etc, etc. Then I will end up bothering you with a bunch of emails :) With how well my heads flow I think they will handle the extra volume of a 350 shot of nitorus. If I can only get a 250 shot tune out of it, so be it. I guess 900 hp will have to be enough. I need some track time to learn how to drive / tune this thing. 900 hp should still get a 9.5 sec time slip with a good 60'.

Good points about the rear end gear situation. A 3.36 (1.19 4th) would allow me to go 145 mph with a 28" tire at 7000 rpms. I would like to retain somewhat of an overdrive, and not have to shift into 5th in the 1/4. I will talk to Zuess and see what he can do. I still need to take my trailing arm down there to see if they can straighten it.

I will keep all informed on the Liberty deal