Should I assemble my own engine ?
07-11-2003, 10:49 AM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Should I assemble my own engine ?
Well after dropping by the engine shop yesterday and seeing that my block is still sitting in it's box as it has for the last 6 months, I'm wondering if I should tell the guy to please do the machine work & I'll take all my parts home and assemble it myself.
Some of the problems is that this is a custom engine so I need to have custom pistons ordered once the top of the decks are cleaned off, the bores come needing finish honing to fit the pistons, rings will need to be fitted, pushrods will need to be checked so proper lengths can be oredered, etc.
I have never assembled an engine before. I don't mind doing the assembly myself but this guys has already built one engine for me and it's been perfect. He also has great reputation for putting together some great engines, but people also know how long it takes to get things thru his shop :rolleyes: .
I want to advertise my current engine for sale locally, but I don't want to take the car off the road for the rest of the year either :nonod: .
Some of the problems is that this is a custom engine so I need to have custom pistons ordered once the top of the decks are cleaned off, the bores come needing finish honing to fit the pistons, rings will need to be fitted, pushrods will need to be checked so proper lengths can be oredered, etc.
I have never assembled an engine before. I don't mind doing the assembly myself but this guys has already built one engine for me and it's been perfect. He also has great reputation for putting together some great engines, but people also know how long it takes to get things thru his shop :rolleyes: .
I want to advertise my current engine for sale locally, but I don't want to take the car off the road for the rest of the year either :nonod: .
07-11-2003, 11:56 AM
#2
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Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (SmokedTires)
Been there...done that...... machine shop guys and paint guys are all made form the same mold!! Their concept of time is much different than the rest of the world.
Building motors is fun. Of course most of us don't have a machine shop in your backyard, so we have to count on others for the actual machining. But figuring out what needs to be cut and how is something you can decide on as you design engine.
Sounds like you have a new block. About all that should need to be done to it is to bore/finish hone it with TQ plates and deck the block. What I usually have them do is rough bore it so that pistons fit in the holes. Then I take it home and mock it all up to cheack deck height, rod clearances etc. Then I take it back and tell them how much I want cut off the decks and let them finish hone it with TQ plates. Then take it all home, DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING THEY DID, and start assembling motor.
You'll need a few things to do it right. You don't have to buy the quality of tools a machine shop uses, since you won't be wearing them out or taking a chance on some clod breaking them. But you will need a few things. *IF* you are pretty tight with machine shop, they might loan you a couple of things.
You'll need micrometer that fits the crank main and rod journals. You'll need a 2-3" one for a small block. You will also need an inside micrometer set to measure inside bearing clearances. I know plastigauge is cheaper, but it's not accurate enough for the money we spend on these things. You can buy a cheap inside mic set for way under $100 and it will last you forever.
You will need a ring compressor. You don't have to have the fancy ones, though they are nice. A cheap $10 one at parts store will get job done.
A good TQ wrench. Click type preferred for most stuff. A beam type can actually be more accurate if used properly and many engine mfg's recommend them.
You can have machine *show* you the measurements of piston/bore clearance while you watch. It will take them about 5 minutes to show it to you as they measure it when you pick up block. Saves you buying a 4-5" mic.
Try to get them to loan you mic's for measuring deck height or just buy a set. They aren't cheap either, but they will outlive you. It can be measured with a feeler gauge, but it's not as accurate.
A dial indicator is needed to degree in cam along with a degree wheel. There are kits available pretty cheap, or you cna just line up the dots. It's usually fine.
Some playdoh or modeling clay to check piston/valve clearance.
The make neat little tools to measure pushrod geometry, or adjustable pushrods or you SWAG it. (Scientific Wild A** guess). For under $20 you can have tools to do it.
You can go to Harbor Freight, swap meets etc to save lots of money on tools. You can get all this stuff for well under $300 or so if you don't buy top line stuff. It will suffice for what you are doing.
Try to find someone to be there to help out that has built a few, or just come back here..I bet we can get you through it. For what you pay to have them assemble it, you can buy lots of tools and then you'll have them forever. Plus you can say you built it yourself!!
JIM
Building motors is fun. Of course most of us don't have a machine shop in your backyard, so we have to count on others for the actual machining. But figuring out what needs to be cut and how is something you can decide on as you design engine.
Sounds like you have a new block. About all that should need to be done to it is to bore/finish hone it with TQ plates and deck the block. What I usually have them do is rough bore it so that pistons fit in the holes. Then I take it home and mock it all up to cheack deck height, rod clearances etc. Then I take it back and tell them how much I want cut off the decks and let them finish hone it with TQ plates. Then take it all home, DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING THEY DID, and start assembling motor.
You'll need a few things to do it right. You don't have to buy the quality of tools a machine shop uses, since you won't be wearing them out or taking a chance on some clod breaking them. But you will need a few things. *IF* you are pretty tight with machine shop, they might loan you a couple of things.
You'll need micrometer that fits the crank main and rod journals. You'll need a 2-3" one for a small block. You will also need an inside micrometer set to measure inside bearing clearances. I know plastigauge is cheaper, but it's not accurate enough for the money we spend on these things. You can buy a cheap inside mic set for way under $100 and it will last you forever.
You will need a ring compressor. You don't have to have the fancy ones, though they are nice. A cheap $10 one at parts store will get job done.
A good TQ wrench. Click type preferred for most stuff. A beam type can actually be more accurate if used properly and many engine mfg's recommend them.
You can have machine *show* you the measurements of piston/bore clearance while you watch. It will take them about 5 minutes to show it to you as they measure it when you pick up block. Saves you buying a 4-5" mic.
Try to get them to loan you mic's for measuring deck height or just buy a set. They aren't cheap either, but they will outlive you. It can be measured with a feeler gauge, but it's not as accurate.
A dial indicator is needed to degree in cam along with a degree wheel. There are kits available pretty cheap, or you cna just line up the dots. It's usually fine.
Some playdoh or modeling clay to check piston/valve clearance.
The make neat little tools to measure pushrod geometry, or adjustable pushrods or you SWAG it. (Scientific Wild A** guess). For under $20 you can have tools to do it.
You can go to Harbor Freight, swap meets etc to save lots of money on tools. You can get all this stuff for well under $300 or so if you don't buy top line stuff. It will suffice for what you are doing.
Try to find someone to be there to help out that has built a few, or just come back here..I bet we can get you through it. For what you pay to have them assemble it, you can buy lots of tools and then you'll have them forever. Plus you can say you built it yourself!!
JIM
07-11-2003, 11:58 AM
#3
Team Owner
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (SmokedTires)
There is a first time for everything. :) But I would advise against first time assembly practice on a 7500 rpm full roller motor. There is no margin for error. If you had a mentor over to work with you and you had the various micrometers and gauges great.
The pushrods aren’t a big deal. It’s just depends on the base circle of your roller cam and the total valve length. We have similar setups so if you told me the base circle from your cam I could tell you the @ pushrod length. Your 3.625 crank with 6-inch big rods will probably won’t require pan rail block grinding. Because your using an aftermarket block that is clearanced for bigger strokes.
Did you buy a total block and head stud kit from ARP? For the heads get the 12 point only. For your AFR heads get the tiny header studs because the smaller nuts will clear 1 ¾ headers.
Jim is pointing you in the right direction. I don't think that I have ever tried assembly with over the internet directions
[Modified by gkull, 11:01 AM 7/11/2003]
The pushrods aren’t a big deal. It’s just depends on the base circle of your roller cam and the total valve length. We have similar setups so if you told me the base circle from your cam I could tell you the @ pushrod length. Your 3.625 crank with 6-inch big rods will probably won’t require pan rail block grinding. Because your using an aftermarket block that is clearanced for bigger strokes.
Did you buy a total block and head stud kit from ARP? For the heads get the 12 point only. For your AFR heads get the tiny header studs because the smaller nuts will clear 1 ¾ headers.
Jim is pointing you in the right direction. I don't think that I have ever tried assembly with over the internet directions
[Modified by gkull, 11:01 AM 7/11/2003]
07-11-2003, 01:21 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (gkull)
Thanks guys. I am a bit nervous about assembling this motor with the $ I have in parts going in :rolleyes: .
I have access to any size mic/ viernier right from my job (gear manufacturing). If we had the jigs, I'd put the block onto one of our mills and do the work myself here :D .
George the block came with steel caps and some quality bolts. I was also planning on the 12pt ARP bolts for my heads. I was thinking about using header studs also :yesnod: .
Maybe I'll stop in again next week and tell them I need the machining done and will be taking my parts home with me ;) .
I have access to any size mic/ viernier right from my job (gear manufacturing). If we had the jigs, I'd put the block onto one of our mills and do the work myself here :D .
George the block came with steel caps and some quality bolts. I was also planning on the 12pt ARP bolts for my heads. I was thinking about using header studs also :yesnod: .
Maybe I'll stop in again next week and tell them I need the machining done and will be taking my parts home with me ;) .
07-11-2003, 02:55 PM
#5
Team Owner
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (SmokedTires)
If your a hands on guy. You would learn allot slapping your own motor together. I'm sure we could walk you through. I also think that your understanding level would go up a notch. When I talk to any of the engine builders we all have that little worry in the back of our minds if we did everything right durring the assembly I've even had trouble sleeping thinking it over the day before you start a new big buck motor. This last one had me wondering because of the 1.050 cam base circle diameter. I lost a tenth of an inch rod to cam clearance.
Monty even told me that he was sweating before putting his 700 N/A motor on the test stand and again when they were bolting up the 1200 horse TT to do the dyno runs. He could have turned either one into a smoking pile of scrap metal in an instant.
You should have the shop have it all ready and cleaned for final assembly at your house. Get on the horn to Jeg's and buy the aluminum cylinder ring compressor. I think that mine are Morroso. You of course would only need the 4.125 - 4.155 or 4.185.
[Modified by gkull, 4:17 PM 7/11/2003]
Monty even told me that he was sweating before putting his 700 N/A motor on the test stand and again when they were bolting up the 1200 horse TT to do the dyno runs. He could have turned either one into a smoking pile of scrap metal in an instant.
You should have the shop have it all ready and cleaned for final assembly at your house. Get on the horn to Jeg's and buy the aluminum cylinder ring compressor. I think that mine are Morroso. You of course would only need the 4.125 - 4.155 or 4.185.
[Modified by gkull, 4:17 PM 7/11/2003]
07-11-2003, 05:01 PM
#6
Drifting
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (gkull)
:iagree:
My local machine shop actually ask me to do it vs. them. (very busy save some dollars) They checked all the clearances and even did the end gap on the rings. I read a Cheavy High Performance Service Manual, and used it for in for various types of information. The hardest part for me was installing the double spiral locks on the JE pistons :crazy: After that it was a breeze. Had a few friends over for some brewskis, and it took about a day to get it done. You can get all the help you need right here on the forum.
My local machine shop actually ask me to do it vs. them. (very busy save some dollars) They checked all the clearances and even did the end gap on the rings. I read a Cheavy High Performance Service Manual, and used it for in for various types of information. The hardest part for me was installing the double spiral locks on the JE pistons :crazy: After that it was a breeze. Had a few friends over for some brewskis, and it took about a day to get it done. You can get all the help you need right here on the forum.
07-14-2003, 07:14 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (striker427)
My local machine shop actually ask me to do it vs. them. (very busy save some dollars) They checked all the clearances and even did the end gap on the rings. I read a Cheavy High Performance Service Manual, and used it for in for various types of information. The hardest part for me was installing the double spiral locks on the JE pistons After that it was a breeze. Had a few friends over for some brewskis, and it took about a day to get it done. You can get all the help you need right here on the forum.
I ordered my Holley Commander 950 ecu & software today. I'll be going to the machine shop later this week to discuss my plans :rolleyes: .
Should I do this, I'm sure I'll have a lot of questions ;) . Just don't want a big pile of scrap when I turn the key
:U :crazy:
07-15-2003, 10:16 PM
#8
Team Owner
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (SmokedTires)
mike - My brother was in the US this weekend from Spain. He was highly impressed with my road racing 79 Vette. I think more impressed that it actually had license plates. :) I took it out and gave him a 5 minute talk about this and that. No line lock. Because I had my 315's. But the 3500 stall and 7000 rpm shifts put a smile on his face. He even ask how fast it would go because I never had him put it in OD fourth gear.
Yours will be an animal also. The hands on building will boost you above the C-5 guy that can't answer any question about his car! :yesnod:
Yours will be an animal also. The hands on building will boost you above the C-5 guy that can't answer any question about his car! :yesnod:
07-16-2003, 06:59 AM
#9
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (gkull)
mike - My brother was in the US this weekend from Spain. He was highly impressed with my road racing 79 Vette. I think more impressed that it actually had license plates. :) I took it out and gave him a 5 minute talk about this and that. No line lock. Because I had my 315's. But the 3500 stall and 7000 rpm shifts put a smile on his face. He even ask how fast it would go because I never had him put it in OD fourth gear.
Yours will be an animal also. The hands on building will boost you above the C-5 guy that can't answer any question about his car! :yesnod:
Yours will be an animal also. The hands on building will boost you above the C-5 guy that can't answer any question about his car! :yesnod:
I'll be stopping by the shop either tonight or tomorrow to let them know about my intentions ;) .
So far I've done everything on my car by myself except put my engine together, so maybe this is my next step :) .
07-20-2003, 02:28 PM
#11
Pro
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (Dan Plett)
do yourself a big favor, buy and read these books carefully first, youll save hundreds of hours and a ton of money just from the MISTAKES you won,t make by following the advise/directions inside versus learning everything the hard way
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...530872-0568664
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
[Modified by grumpyvette, 2:11 PM 7/23/2003]
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...530872-0568664
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
[Modified by grumpyvette, 2:11 PM 7/23/2003]
07-21-2003, 06:37 AM
#12
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (grumpyvette)
Thanks Dan, I printed it and will refer to it often :cheers:
Thanks Grumpy, I'll be sure to pickup at least a couple of those books ;) .
Thanks Grumpy, I'll be sure to pickup at least a couple of those books ;) .
07-23-2003, 10:32 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Re: Should I assemble my own engine ? (SmokedTires)
Just recieved 2 books today:
1. John Lingenfelter on Modifying Small Block Chevy Engines
2. The Step by Step Guide to Engine Blueprinting
Hopefully these will give me the know-how & confidence to do this ;) .
1. John Lingenfelter on Modifying Small Block Chevy Engines
2. The Step by Step Guide to Engine Blueprinting
Hopefully these will give me the know-how & confidence to do this ;) .
