I am not a fan of copper head gaskets but have been forced to run one. My block is O ringed and the stainless O rings stick above the block deck by .008. I run the .040 since my block is decked for Zero deck clearance and I need the .040 for the proper piston to head clearance.
Copper gaskets on the street tend to weep. I have had mine for 3 years without a problem but I clean the engine almost weekly for cruise nights so I could be getting a bit of weeping and it wouldn't show.
I just sprayed the gasket with copper spray and installed it.
Location: Pettis Performance 565 with two stages of Nitrous Supply nitrous 1.082, 4.61 at 155, 7.17 at 192
Re: Who is using copper head gaskets? (ld85)
I also have to run copper gasketts due to an o-ringed block. The first version of the motor we used stock replacement gasketts, since I am going to use up to 250 hp worth of NOS this time I used copper. I have not got the motor running yet so I have no experiance yet.
I talked to C.S.E (the copper gasketts I am using) they have a new gaskett they call the Titan. It comes with a coating that suposedly does not need any additional treatment to run on the street. They also told me to get the motor started warmed up and then back off (1/4 turn) and retorque in order every head bolt. Be sure to do one at a time, back off, re-torque and then move on to the next. Also do them in the same order your specs call for. The last thing CSE told me was to not run anti freeze in the motor, they said water wetter will seal and work much better.
Re: Who is using copper head gaskets? (69 N.O.X. RATT)
I used Copper in my last engine, I didn't have any issues, though I sprayed copper sealent on the gasket let it dry, I did this about 3 times , then sprayed a final coat wet, and then installed it right away, the copper sealent oozed out from the edges. Anyways no leaks that I found, though I didn't run it very long. Now I am onto a new engine, I have not O-ringed it yet but here is my question. Last time I just o-ringed the heads, this time the shop was saying I should o-ring the block, then put a reciever groove in the head. But today I pulled my block from the old shop "long story and I was sick of it" Anyways the new shop which the people are much much nicer, the setup is much cleaner, and a bunch of people refered me to them saying they do great work and really care that you the Consumer is satisfied. But back on track, they said I don't need a reciever groove in the heads unless I am using a certain kind of Felpro gasket with a ring in it. Anyone have more info?
Re: Who is using copper head gaskets? (WashingtonRacer)
I 0 ringed the block but did not put a receiver groove in the head. I was running a high dose of nitrous with a normal composite gasket and when I pulled the motor apart for routine checking I found the head was starting to lift. That is when I went to studs, the 0 ring and the copper gasket. In 3 years the motor has not been apart so I can not comment if the head is starting to lift or not.
Running 12 pounds of boost puts my 8-1 compression motor at around 14-15 to 1 effective compression.
I just spoke with SCE tech and they said that O-rings in ONLY the heads is way sufficient for a 10.5:1 which is what mine is, they said a receiver groove is required mostly for Hi-Boost and Nitrous, and compression @ 15.:1 etc. The also said to allow for @ .006" stickout fo the o-ring.
They said that electrolysis is not an issue as there is not enough copper to cause an issue and they said that anti-freeze is OK no ned to change to ALL Water Wetter. So I will probably still put a saraficial anode in my radiator just for my own peace of mind.
So this is the way I will go, and the O-ring cost is $120 to machine the heads.
It really BLOWS me away at what the companies are charging for these copper head gaskets. I used a .012 set on my '63 FI 327 for 15 years and paid maybe $10 for them. NEVER has any problem with them. They were great. Also I did not use any kind of sealer of any sort when installing the heads. I went to a set of aluminum heads. That was the reason for changing.
I think it's nuts what these mfg's want....$124...unbelieveable. There is nothing exotic about these gaskets, just hype. I used them just to get a little more compression. :crazy:
All the more reason to re invent the wheel. Maybe not for copper gaskets, but if you have the mind to think up some of the ideas floating around here that cost an arm and a leg to buy from a company, then go for it.
Re: Who is using copper head gaskets? (WashingtonRacer)
I really don't see the need for copper head gaskets and all their problems/concerns on a street engine. My last two setups, both the 650hp 11.5:1 compression, and the current 20+ psi boost engine use regular head gaskets with no o-ringing. As long as you avoid detonation, and the associated spikes in cylinder pressure, you should be fine. I'd rather use the head gasket as a "fuse" rather than over-engineer it and risk popping a piston instead, or worse. Rather than use copper head gaskets, spend more effort at tuning the engine to run properly.
Location: Pettis Performance 565 with two stages of Nitrous Supply nitrous 1.082, 4.61 at 155, 7.17 at 192
Re: Who is using copper head gaskets? (Monty)
Quote:
I really don't see the need for copper head gaskets and all their problems/concerns on a street engine. My last two setups, both the 650hp 11.5:1 compression, and the current 20+ psi boost engine use regular head gaskets with no o-ringing. As long as you avoid detonation, and the associated spikes in cylinder pressure, you should be fine. I'd rather use the head gasket as a "fuse" rather than over-engineer it and risk popping a piston instead, or worse. Rather than use copper head gaskets, spend more effort at tuning the engine to run properly.
Good points Monty. If I did not have to use them I would not. I hope to make them work.
One comment about using the head gasket as a fuse, what if you hydraulic the motor due to a blown head gaskett?
I really don't see the need for copper head gaskets and all their problems/concerns on a street engine. My last two setups, both the 650hp 11.5:1 compression, and the current 20+ psi boost engine use regular head gaskets with no o-ringing. As long as you avoid detonation, and the associated spikes in cylinder pressure, you should be fine. I'd rather use the head gasket as a "fuse" rather than over-engineer it and risk popping a piston instead, or worse. Rather than use copper head gaskets, spend more effort at tuning the engine to run properly.
I agree whole heartedly, but my deck is .021, and with a a .039 head gasket my quench is less than ideal.
Does the .061 quench no matter wtih a a 10.5:1 compression, 8.2 dynamic?
Re: Who is using copper head gaskets? (69 N.O.X. RATT)
I guess that's possible, but I don't know how likely it is. Maybe I'm wrong or just lucky, but I've had leaky head gaskets before and it didn't get enough coolant in the combustion chamber to hydraulic lock it. Obviously there some negative pressure on the cylinder during the downward strokes that might pull a little coolant in, but the cylinder pressure is obviously much greater than the 15-20psi your cooling system operates at the rest of the time.
I just think your best bet is to use a quality gasket, clean and true deck/head surfaces, proper torquing procedures, and make sure the engine doesn't detonate.
Ideally you want your quench to be around .036"-.040" on a steel rod engine that sees normal street operating rpm ranges to promote squish and ensure more efficient combustion and detonation resistance. However, consider that a stock deck height small block is 9.025", which leaves the piston almost .025" down the hole, and stock engines are equipped with head gaskets in the .038"-.041" range, leaving them with a .060"+ quench height. Todays engines are more efficient than ever before, which seems to fly in the face of the tight quench theory. I haven't really studied current cyliner heads, but I get the impression that they tend to promote swirl over tumble and squish.
Ideally you want your quench to be around .036"-.040" on a steel rod engine that sees normal street operating rpm ranges to promote squish and ensure more efficient combustion and detonation resistance. However, consider that a stock deck height small block is 9.025", which leaves the piston almost .025" down the hole, and stock engines are equipped with head gaskets in the .038"-.041" range, leaving them with a .060"+ quench height. Todays engines are more efficient than ever before, which seems to fly in the face of the tight quench theory. I haven't really studied current cyliner heads, but I get the impression that they tend to promote swirl over tumble and squish.
[Modified by Monty, 9:46 AM 4/18/2003]
This is my point, from the factory you get @ .064, so the additional squish can only be good for maybe @ .4 compression.
No I don't have O-ringed. O-ring is for real race motors. :)
I use a .021 copper because I couldn't find a multi-layered one that thin. I wanted a .041 quench with my pistons down about .020 in the holes. IMO the tighter quench lessons the the possibility of detonation. The small added compression is just a bonus.
Okay, It's final for me, I am having the block o-ringed, but leaving the heads alone. I should have it all back in about 2 weeks, and for once I actually feel confidant with this shop. They actually writtin work order per my request, and even said that they would treat my motor like gold. And thats what sells me, someone who cares.
I just hope he is really right that I don't really need a reciever groove in the heads.
My brother used a copper head gasket on his 461. Reason was compression-needed a thin gasket to boost his 8.8 to 1 to 9+ for his 282 solid cam he wanted to run.
The gasket weeped little oil, but is working fine for last 10,000 miles. Car ran 13.40's off the street-4300 pound Caprice...:)
Id85. It is far easier to machine the block for the O ring then the head.
The tool locates in the bore, using it as a guide and easily cuts the groove around the bore.
In the case of the head the tool has nothing to reference off so it requires a mill.
Re: Who is using copper head gaskets? (norvalwilhelm)
Quote:
Id85. It is far easier to machine the block for the O ring then the head.
The tool locates in the bore, using it as a guide and easily cuts the groove around the bore.
In the case of the head the tool has nothing to reference off so it requires a mill.
Can I do this after thecrank and pistons are in the block?
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Who is using copper head gaskets?
