bowtie racing

Hi iam planning of baying set of Aluminium heads with standart 23 deg angle (bacause of better intake manifold availabilty) and want to stay intake size of 220cc (because of size of engine) And now the question : I want as high velocity/flow as possible in low to midrange camlift for good torque ,what do you recomend me? Btw as for cam it will be hyd roller with max lift .560- .600 @ valve.

thanks!

SWCDuke

Good torque is going to be a function of valve timing, not valve flow at mid-range lift. On a carbureted engine, torque can be compromised by the combination of a big cam and big ports because flow at low revs is insufficient to evaporate all the fuel for both a good mixture and good distribution. EFI engines are not as sensitive to this.

The modern LS6 engine makes big torque and power with free flowing heads and manifolding and convervative valve timing. You should get a simulation program and do some system engineering.

Duke

gkull

If you have less than 383 cubic inches AFR 210 would be a good top of the line choice. This what basically I have for heads and I would recommend them for 383 and up. My next motor with be a stroker 396 or 420 ish cubic inches and I didn't want to have to upgrade heads at a later date.
http://www.dartheads.com/sbpro227.htm

I had a race shop do my porting in addition to the factory porting. I was most interested in .600 lift because my cam only has gross lift values of .635/.644 - the @ .020 lash. They flow 304 & 230 cfm. The exhaust ports are about .500 or .600 taller than stock, but I was able to port match standard 1 3/4 hooker super Comp angle plug headers by grinding out the thick flange. Another thing Dart never told me is these heads required +.200 longer push rods and the taller 7/16 ARP rocker studs. I'm using a combo of 1.65 ratio intake steel rockers and 1.6 exhaust with a crane stud girdle. My valve size is 2.08/1.625

mountainmotor

The Pro Action 220's. Compare the low lift flow to any of the others,,even to their little 180's.They will get the job done at 1/2 the price of AFR's.Leave some money on the table for some other go fast stuff.These heads deliver!

MoMo

What do you think about Brodix Track 1 heads for Chevy small blocks?

mountainmotor

They look to be a good head at a heafty price just from what I see in the Summit catalog. The CNC versions cost 2389.00 a pair and flow 290 cfm on the intake with a 215 runner which tells me a good,high velocity design. It does not show any exhaust flows and I have not visited the website.Are they a high port design?
The CNC work really takes alot of the hand work out of the combustion chambers as well.

With the TFS23's if you order the CNC chambers that is 17 hp

Here are the flows of the $823.00 delivered to your door Iron Pro Action 220's for comparison only

Intake

.100-70.74
.200-146.41
.300-204.62
.400-249.84
.500-264.62
.600-272.23
.700-282.08

Exhaust

.100-56.90
.200-100.99
.300-156.94
.400-176.85
.500-186.34
.600-190.13
.700-194.87

These are the flows of the Pro Action 235's-same price

Intake port dimension 1.250 2.240

.100-73.43
.200-138.35
.300-195.66
.400-243.12
.500-274.02
.600-292.11
.700-312.38

Exhaust

.100-60.22
.200-114.27
.300-151.72
.400-177.80
.500-192.02
.600-194.13
.700-197.24

These 242's are the largest of the std 23 degree heads Pro offers.Then they get into still a 23 degree head in the High Port series requiring .650 offset rockers.Then the 14 degree heads after that

Intake

.100-68.19
.200-147.59
.300-206.17
.400-263.43
.500-296.35
.600-315.49
.700-325.00

Exhaust

.100-58.79
.200-118.53
.300-156.94
.400-180.17
.500-197.71
.600-217.93
.700-225.67




[Modified by mountainmotor, 10:41 AM 7/17/2002]

korvetkeith

The pro actions are iron I believe. Pro Action recently merged with Topline and they now make some similar aluminum heads, which are very reasonable, but not less than 1000 bucks. They do flow a lot but I think its due to the huge runners, no one seems to be able to get the velocity like the AFRs. None of brodix's out the box standard valve heads are very impressive, except the newly redesigned Track 1 and the 18x.

What size motor are you building?

gtsyellow

pro action gets my vote, they just can't be beat for the $ and cfm. the victor jr also isn't half bad if you want a out of the box head assembled that won't fall apart in 1 yr.

mountainmotor

The low lift flow is what tells the tale of velocity. The 220's are up to the task in my opinion.Here is a little to compare with the little 180's they majke,just don't want to type it all

Intake

.100 -73.8
.200- 150.89
.300 -206.86
.400 -242.68 ---then the 220's take off

I do not have the numbers of the AFR's to compare with but if you compare these 180's to the 220's you will see what I mean by velocity and low lift flow,,it is not all in the size of the runners with these heads. They have a 200 head as well.

Bowtie Racing,,what intake manifold are you going to use?

[Modified by mountainmotor, 6:36 PM 7/17/2002]


[Modified by mountainmotor, 5:15 PM 7/18/2002]

bowtie racing

Thanks i agree with mountain here , its the velocity speed at lower lifts wich make the torque ,more than cam -ofcourse torque is cam related but if theres poor fill at lower speeds -no torque,no power.

I want to find best flowing 23 deg head because of hyd roller cam (they dont make off set hyd roller lifters :smash: )and around 220 cc intake. I prefer 100%cnc ported wich will flow best at mid lifts .30-.40-.50"

Pro action/top line sound good ,any more info??

Edzred72

I purchased a set of the Protopline 180cc 64 cc aluminum heads. I have had many problems with valve geometry and can't for the life of me get the motor running properly. I have Comp roller tips, sitting on Arp rocker studs, and not only will a thin wall socket NOT fit on the valve adjusting nut without compressing the spring a little, but after initial start up all the nuts came loose. #1 cylinder rockers almost fell off!!!!(thank goodness for p.rod guides) I have the .100 over pushrods that Pro recomended, and the rollers sit on the valve stem perfectly, but it looks like the rocker sits tipped too far inward. All my stud torque specs are perfect. Also have the 110lb single valve springs for a mild sub .500 lift cam.
Any opinions or guidance will be greatly appreciated :D :D :D :D
Eddie

JAKE

I sent you an email on my suggestions.

Let me know if I can help further.

Jake

HeaderDesign.com

Bowtie Racing,
That's a great website. I would like to know what engine you are building, and what is your horsepower goal. The 220cc head has a big cross-sectional area, and is intended for good torque way up there in RPM. Your engine could be soggy as a wet rag at low RPM if you cam a 220cc head for near max HP. You may be happier with a head that brings the strong ram tune in at lower RPM, unless you are building a particularly powerful engine (550-600HP).

mountainmotor

Ed,
I truely think your pushrods are too short. I know you have installed the + 100 pushrods but you have not checked them for absolute lenght with a adjustable checking rod. Pro Action has moved the intake and exhaust valves a bit and use a .100 long valve. You have a small base circle cam and I really think before you go any farther you should get an adjustable push rod and the poly locks made for the style rockers you have,,not for the roller rockers but the type for stamped steel" I know you have Comp Roller tipped" but these are the kind you need.

I have spoke with the higher ups in Aukland ,New Zealand and in America.They are top notch people running a great Company with a extremely good produduct. They would not have any problem whatso ever with warranty issues if something is wrong with those heads,,I even spoke with one of them about your heads minutes ago but not soley for your problem,,but until correct pushrod lenght is determined,,nothing can be done or should be done. There imo could be nothing physicaly wrong with a cylinder head that would cause your stock style locks to back off. Running them in and out too many times can ruin the crush put in them though. And as far as the socket not fitting? I have one that fits perfect,I know those rockers are close to the sidewall when a socket is in them but I am at a loss to why you are having this problem

So what do ya say? Pick up an adjustable pushrod and check a intake and exhaust ? Also get a set of locks? I think thats the first step in the process of elimination.

Pro did have early on minor spring problems with some 180/s,,but I do not think your heads are involved because it seems all those have now been taken care of. After you do all this,if you still have problems contact me and I will give you a phone number to call,,they are eager to help and are proud of their products :cheers:


[Modified by mountainmotor, 2:27 PM 7/23/2002]

JoeC427

Just put Dart's on and be done with it. They work period.
Good luck :eek:

Edzred72

Thank you for your insight Curtis. Also thanks to Jake for his suggestions.
We high-perf rookies need all the help we can get!! :D :D :D Will post results as soon as that big brown truck arrives. :jester
Eddie

JAKE

Thanks for the email letting me know that the polylocks solved the preload problem and that you already had the correct length pushrods.

Keep us posted on how things are going.

Jake

oger

What are you doing with the engine? That is a lot of head for anything that doesn't have 5.38 gears and only makes 1/4 mi trips.

mountainmotor

Ed had a thread pitch problem between the rockers studs and the nuts supplied from Comp with the rockers. It is a wonder the studs were not stripped like the nuts were!As in was binding in the first couple threads but still ran em down

No problems with the heads at all,,the big brown truck has come and gone,no follow up post on the "actual problem"

Ed,you hotmail is full,,I have info you need but cannot send