Flareside

Well, through my research I've figured out what you EFI experts probably knew all along. The Accel complete systems that Summit and Jegs sell for around $2400 have the older version 6 ECM. Bummer. The best price I've found for the newer Gen VII system is $3214. Big jump. For that money, I'm close to the cost of a Speed Pro. It's looking like the $2400 Holley is the best system for the money, and I can get a 10% discount from Summit! Not bad, but I'm not exactly sure how the Holley ECM compares. What capabilities would I be giving up with the Holley? (I'm assuming you get what you pay for...) Thanks!

Monty

flareside,

I see you've found Doug Flynn and Craig Smith over at Chevy Talk. Since Doug works for Holley, and Craig works for FAST, you can't go worng with their info.

I'd have to say for a normally aspirated street car, the Holley system is hard to beat. I haven't used their stuff myself, but I've seen their software, and it looks very intuitive and easy to use. Also, I believe they arenow offering a 'race' version which will accomodate a wide-band O2 if you'd like to step up to that. Otherwise, I think their basic system is more than sufficient, and unless you're trying to maximize fuel economy, meet emissions, or wrangle every last bit of power out of the motor, you probably don't need a sequential box either. It's hard to beat their price. For the same amount of money, you would only get the ECM and harness from Speedpro/FAST

Flareside

Monty,

Yea, I found those guys. They're VERY helpful and VERY knowledgable. You just gotta love these forums. No way would I have attempted a project like this before I discovered these forums as a resource. Step-by-step professional help out of the goodness of their hearts. Amazing! I can't imagine owning a Vette without this forum.

About the wideband: Some people have advised that it takes around 40 hours to program the ECM. Is that realistic? Will the wideband make the initial setup easier and quicker?

Thanks!

Joe

hookedup

Do you have the address for "Chevy Talk"?

Thanks Dave :flag

Flareside

Hey Dave, try http://www.chevytalk.com :)

Monty

40 hours! Not by a professional.

A pro will have some initial programs from similar setups that they will usually start with. They can usually get it pretty darned close within an hour or two. On a typical application, 4-6 hours is pretty normal, especially if they have access to a dyno. Add another hour or two for drivability tuning. 8 hours total max. If it was a real unusual engine combination. Maybe 2-4 more hours.

When I initially converted my 82 to a DFI system, it only took me 4-5 hours to get it running pretty well. I tinkered with it for a few weeks and then took it oer to a chassis dyno shop, and he spent about 2 hours tweaking it.

A wideband makes tuning alot easier becuase you can accurately tune by A/F all the way through WOT. Rather than adjusting injector pulsewidths, arbitrary cell numbers, or VE, you can just input the target A/F ratio for that rpm/load point. After you have determined the best A/F ratio for that point, you can go back and adjust the VE or pulsewidth by the O2 correction percentage to achieve minimum O2 correction.

snaketr

Wow, please let me help. First the Holley system sucks, when you use one you will understand what I mean if you have used a speedpro or Accell. The Speedpro is a great system, however some news many of you might not know is they are in a lawsuit. Accell paid John Meany and others to design there system and then Fel-Pro paid John using the Accell set up to design theres. The new Gen VII is great, it is easy to tune just like the Fel Pro (user friendly) however you cannot overlook the 6.0 box it is still a great system. Pay the extra money and get the Accell or the Fel Pro you will be very happy with it. The Holley system cannot tune on the fly which can be a real PITA and if you lose power to the Holley you have to go back and retune. Always remeber you get what you pay for.

snaketr

I just saw you other post, yes the Gen VII can either be used as batch, bank to bank, or Sequential. You need to call Dan Baldwin at 804-598-7727 he can get you the best deal on a DFI system. Oh yea the 6.0 box is only batch fire.

Flareside

Who's Dan Baldwin, where does he work? I'd like to talk to someone who's willing to price the SpeedPro or DFI Gen 7 fairly. Everybody else I've talked to has said that the Commander 950 is superior to the Accel 6. Can you tune the Accel 6 on the fly? The Accel Gen 7 is obviously better, but for an inflated price. What don't you like about the Holley?

Flareside

Thanks! I think I'll be fine with batch fire.

Flareside

Speaking of "you get what you pay for":

I'd usually agree that "you get what you pay for", but with these EFI systems I'm not so sure. Case in point: While pricing the Accel 6 complete 1200 cfm system, I got two different quotes of over $3400 for part number 74202K (one was from Scoggins-Dickey), then I check with Summit and find out that they will sell it to me for $2379-10%=$2142! That's over a $1200 savings! WTF!:mad I called Accel and they told me the MSRP for the Gen 7 complete system is $5100 (although I found somebody who will sell it for $3200.) These guys believe they are selling proprietary technology, and they're pricing it accordingly. There sure as hell isn't more technology in a SpeedPro than there is in the Pentium I'm typing on, but you couldn't tell that from the price! We'll, it looks like people like Holley are about to make it commodity technology, and they want to drop the price so the average joe can get in. I REALLY want to support them in this endeavor. If the Holley is even close, I'll buy it in a heartbeat to starve the sharks. Sorry for the rant, but this has really been bothering me during my research tonight.

Monty

I can understand your frustration at the cost, although I got a discount on my Speedpro SEFI box, it was still a painful purchase. But I don't think you can compare these systems to a PC or Pentium chip. FAST only sells a couple thousand boxes a year while Intel sells millions of chips. Sure, the R&D required to make a chip is huge compared to making an EFI box, but these companies have a right to make a profit.

I ran an Accel 6.32 box for two years on my Superram 383 and there wasn't anything wrong with it, but now that I have a FAST/ SpeedPro SEFI box with wide-band, there's no comparison. As I said before, I don't have any first hand expereince with the Holley stuff, but they are really seem to be trying to bring aftermarket programmable EFI to the mass mid-tier market. All the reviews I've seen of it have been overwhelmingly positive. The Speedpro/FAST stuff is really aimed at EFI racers and high-end street machines. Accell is somewhere in between in my opinion, although I think they've decided to take aim at the FAST system with their new 7.0 box. My point is that it's almost unfair to be comparing them against each other because they represent the entire spectrum of aftermarket EFI systems. It would knida be like comparing a Honda, a Chevy, and a BMW against each other. They are all fine cars in their own regard, but thye are intended for different segments of the driving population. Just like I can't really compare my Speedpro SEFI box with wide-band O2 and individual cylinder control to my old DFI box that had a standard O2 and offerd basic programmable engine management. But for my applicaiton at the time, the DFI worked just fine.

Doug Flynn

snaketr,
The Commander 950 is fully programmable on the fly. You are confusing it with Holley's old projection fuel injection which has been obsolete for almost two years.

It is in no way similar to the projection.

For the money, it is currently the best EFI on the market. The old DFI is antiquated.

How much tuning you have to do also has a lot to how close the base map is you start out with.

A decent tuner should be able to tune most anything (except cold start) in under 2 hours, as long as the installation was done properly and the correct hardware was chosen.

snaketr

You are correct the new holley is proggramable. However it was copied off the 6.o box DFI system. The 6.0 box is not obsolite, it can still offer's more than most other systems, or there are only 3 other systems that can beat it maybe and a big maybe on the Holley. The new Gen VII is the numero uno. Folliowed very closely by the Speed Pro. Note all of these system were designed by the same guy. Holley as usual is behind the ball. They copied the old 6.0 box instead of te new Gen VII

Flareside

Doug, thanks for your help! Is there a Windows demo available for the Holley unit?

I also noticed that you mentioned a new "Stealth" injection system on the ChevyTalk board, but I couldn't find any info about it on the Holley site. Can you provide any yet?

I found the "Race" upgrade, but it's more expensive than I hoped at $242 (through Summit). Does it support wideband yet? The Holley "What's New" page lists all the new features, but wideband isn't one of them. I'm thinking about building one of the cheap home-built wideband boxes from http://www.diy-efi.org The build doesn't look too difficult; not sure how you calibrate that sucker though... Probably don't need "race" or wideband, but then again I probably don't *need* to remove my tripower ;)

Thanks again,

Joe

[Modified by Flareside, 10:14 AM 12/21/2001]


[Modified by Flareside, 11:10 AM 12/21/2001]

zwede

Joe:

Yep, the race cmdr950 supports wideband.

Also, for a look at what the SW looks like, just download the tuning manual. Plenty of screen shots. The SW is very good.

Doug Flynn

Try this link to download the complete users manual (go down to the Commande 950 tuning manual). It gives a complete overview of the software.
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/TechSer.../TechInfo.html

The race software upgrade gives you a 4x4 matrix based on load and engine speed that allows you to put in a target O2 VOLTAGE. You need to know what A/F ratio the voltage is. It is truly intended to be able to use a regular O2 sensor and offset the normal 14.7:1 A/F ratio.

You could use the 0-5 V wideband output in there. If that is the intended use (closed loop with wideband), it is cheaper to buy a FAST system with a wideband in the first place (unless you do a DIY deal which I haven't tried). The FAST gives you a 8x8 matrix and you input acutal A/F ratio.

This option is not designed to allow this unit to compete with the FAST unit as far as the wide band O2 is concerned. I just want to make that clear. The race software has many other features that are very useful for the racer and high performance street use such as an internal datalogger and many others.

Flareside

Thanks Doug, that is very helpful. I didn't want to go into a Holley system without fully understanding it's new race features.

Any info on the Stealth system?

Thanks! -Joe

Doug Flynn

Joe,
I'll try to email some pics Wed when I get back to work.

I need to get them on the internet.

Basically it is a tunnel ram lower with a box upper with a 58 mm throttle body complete with fuel rails, regulator, etc, ready to bolt on. It comes in a completely polished finished or as cast.

It's a pretty nice piece.


[Modified by Doug Flynn, 10:12 AM 12/22/2001]

Flareside

Great Doug, thanks. I'd actually prefer a tunnel setup, but most of them won't fit under a Vette L88 hood. Any dimensions available? (I mainly need the height at the front of the throttle body). Thanks, and Merry Christmas! -Joe


[Modified by Flareside, 1:01 PM 12/22/2001]