c6 race car build questions
10-31-2013, 03:25 PM
#1
Cruising
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c6 race car build questions
I've been wading through pages and pages of stuff on here, but it's hard to find anything specific related to full on race car builds. Great info for HPDE and TT, but not much else ... unless I suck at searching 
Anyway, we have a C6 2005 Z51 that has been gutted and caged, and in the process of reassembly. The goal is keep as much as possible stock, and slowly over time replace with race parts. However, some stuff needs to be done from day to make it race legal, and track worthy of coruse. Here are some specific quesions I'd like input on:
- We're keeping the stock ECU (ECM?). I have HPTuners, and have removed the VATS. Car fires up after wiring in a start button (car was flooded, didn't work when we got it, BCM replaced, OE start button not working).
- I would like to keep the OE instrument cluster for now. Is it possible to use the dash without the BCM? BCM was flooded, and now we have a replacement (used), but it's not matched to the car/ECM ... want to avoid dealer trips for now.
- I would like to keep ABS for now. Does ABS work without the BCM? Anything specific that needs to be done here? If we do remove the BCM, and OE cluster (replace with a AIM pista), and gut the wiring, how do I tie the ABS controller into the ECM? Is there a commercially available harness, or some schematics of what needs to be done?
- Currently, getting no FOBS and car will not turn "on" (ie, cluster is dead ... lights work, but no speedo, rpm, etc). Car engine runs, but not sending info to cluster. The car turned on fine for a while with the OE button (not started, just turned on), but I suspect someone put it in reverse, and hence "shut down" the car ... this mind boggling feature existed in 2005 only apparently??
- Need to disable TPMS and Active handling and TC so it does not ever, ever, ever come into play (yes, we will drive for more than 60 minutes at a time). No, I do not want to carry sensors in a PVC pipe (which probably does not work anyway). I know I can simply unplug the steering angle sensor ... is that all there is to it? Done and Done? I don't have a TC button to push, and don't want to anyway
- Currently, releasing the clutch turns off the engine. I have the switch jumped, but I'd like to know why that is. I assume it's related to the no FOBS detected and car being "off". Does the clutch switch turn on some relays that are important for the ECM to run? I still have the full wiring harness in the car, but nothing plugged in except the ECM, BCM and FOB receiver. All other electronics are gone. I have no glove box, so no FOB slot.
- Car won't rev past 3k or so even at WOT. I'm thinking possible clogged exhaust (cats have been disintegrating for a while ... flood car). Or maybe running on < 8 cyl? It's a bit rough. Ran fine for a while previously. Anway is there anything in the electronics that would limit the revs like that? Some sort of limp mode?
Hope some of you can point me in the right direction! At a high level, the goal for this build this year is as follows:
- Gutted, caged, race seat, harness, fire system (done)
- Brake upgrade (done, went with AP from Essex)
- LS2 engine completely stock, maybe some tuning (HPTuners)
- Rad replaced with aluminum high capacity unit, oil/tranny coollers built in (good for now, might go to seperate later on)
- Accusump (to be installed)
- Suspension completely stock (do what we can with alignment for now)
- Stock ECM
- Retain ABS
- Retain OE Instrument Cluster
- disable/remove completely AH, TPMS, TC, etc
- Remove all other electronics
Btw, we build BMW race cars, so this GM stuff we are total retards with for now I cannot believe that there is no easy way to disable the TPMS, AH, and TC ... that just boggles my mind (and I cannot believe that some of you keep insisting that this is a good thing! 
)
Thanks in advance!
Anyway, we have a C6 2005 Z51 that has been gutted and caged, and in the process of reassembly. The goal is keep as much as possible stock, and slowly over time replace with race parts. However, some stuff needs to be done from day to make it race legal, and track worthy of coruse. Here are some specific quesions I'd like input on:
- We're keeping the stock ECU (ECM?). I have HPTuners, and have removed the VATS. Car fires up after wiring in a start button (car was flooded, didn't work when we got it, BCM replaced, OE start button not working).
- I would like to keep the OE instrument cluster for now. Is it possible to use the dash without the BCM? BCM was flooded, and now we have a replacement (used), but it's not matched to the car/ECM ... want to avoid dealer trips for now.
- I would like to keep ABS for now. Does ABS work without the BCM? Anything specific that needs to be done here? If we do remove the BCM, and OE cluster (replace with a AIM pista), and gut the wiring, how do I tie the ABS controller into the ECM? Is there a commercially available harness, or some schematics of what needs to be done?
- Currently, getting no FOBS and car will not turn "on" (ie, cluster is dead ... lights work, but no speedo, rpm, etc). Car engine runs, but not sending info to cluster. The car turned on fine for a while with the OE button (not started, just turned on), but I suspect someone put it in reverse, and hence "shut down" the car ... this mind boggling feature existed in 2005 only apparently??
- Need to disable TPMS and Active handling and TC so it does not ever, ever, ever come into play (yes, we will drive for more than 60 minutes at a time). No, I do not want to carry sensors in a PVC pipe (which probably does not work anyway). I know I can simply unplug the steering angle sensor ... is that all there is to it? Done and Done? I don't have a TC button to push, and don't want to anyway
- Currently, releasing the clutch turns off the engine. I have the switch jumped, but I'd like to know why that is. I assume it's related to the no FOBS detected and car being "off". Does the clutch switch turn on some relays that are important for the ECM to run? I still have the full wiring harness in the car, but nothing plugged in except the ECM, BCM and FOB receiver. All other electronics are gone. I have no glove box, so no FOB slot.
- Car won't rev past 3k or so even at WOT. I'm thinking possible clogged exhaust (cats have been disintegrating for a while ... flood car). Or maybe running on < 8 cyl? It's a bit rough. Ran fine for a while previously. Anway is there anything in the electronics that would limit the revs like that? Some sort of limp mode?
Hope some of you can point me in the right direction! At a high level, the goal for this build this year is as follows:
- Gutted, caged, race seat, harness, fire system (done)
- Brake upgrade (done, went with AP from Essex)
- LS2 engine completely stock, maybe some tuning (HPTuners)
- Rad replaced with aluminum high capacity unit, oil/tranny coollers built in (good for now, might go to seperate later on)
- Accusump (to be installed)
- Suspension completely stock (do what we can with alignment for now)
- Stock ECM
- Retain ABS
- Retain OE Instrument Cluster
- disable/remove completely AH, TPMS, TC, etc
- Remove all other electronics
Btw, we build BMW race cars, so this GM stuff we are total retards with for now
I cannot believe that there is no easy way to disable the TPMS, AH, and TC ... that just boggles my mind (and I cannot believe that some of you keep insisting that this is a good thing! )Thanks in advance!
10-31-2013, 05:07 PM
#2
Drifting
Maybe get rid of all the factory wiring etc, and replace with the Howell Engine Development Harness. They can also rework your ecu.
The did the harness etc for the old LS1 ASA Delco Series cars.
http://howellefi.com/
The did the harness etc for the old LS1 ASA Delco Series cars.
http://howellefi.com/
10-31-2013, 05:27 PM
#3
Former Vendor
It's really a all or nothing type of a deal. If you want factory ABS, then you are getting it all. LGM has a little box that gets rid of the TPMS. The other stuff you can turn off.
Randy
Randy
10-31-2013, 06:03 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
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If you are even thinking about keeping the factory wiring in an 05 send a PM to member "clubracer6" he has been running a 05 for 3 years or so. He can give you a better idea of what he has gone through.
11-02-2013, 03:51 PM
#5
Cruising
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I'm pretty disappoined with the lack of any information on this stuff ... In the BMW community, pretty much everything has been hacked in some way for racing and track use, and there is tonnes of info and sharing of information. Is the vette DIY community just not that big, or is it really such an unfriendly "moderate" race car, and short of ripping it all out and going with standalone there is no in between?
Do the wheel speed sensors hook into the ECM or the BCM for example? Does the ABS need other information besides the speed sensors? If so, what? Can it be separated from the BCM? Has anyone tried?
11-02-2013, 04:11 PM
#6
Drifting
AFAIK a tuner can deal with a lot of the issues you are talking about. I think the majority of the nuisance issues can be addressed that way.
11-04-2013, 12:21 AM
#7
Cruising
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Well, solved the no rev past 3k problem. Turns out it was running on 3 or 4 cyl ... all coils were firing, but at least 4 injectors were not. Hmmmm ... why is that? Yup, you guessed it. Some sort of ******** limp mode. I unplugged the steering angle sensor, and bam, she revs right up. What a stupid, stupid car. I am impressed that it can keep an idle (very poorly) on 1 cyl though!
Still insists on keeping the TC on though ... tires won't slip, even on gravel. Making some progress at least!
If we figure out some of this stuff, I'll keep posting ... in case some other sucker ends up trying to the same thing.
Still insists on keeping the TC on though ... tires won't slip, even on gravel. Making some progress at least!
If we figure out some of this stuff, I'll keep posting ... in case some other sucker ends up trying to the same thing.
11-04-2013, 11:54 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
It sounds like you have flooder car issues still, lots of them.. steering angle sensor fixes idle.. don't think so. That fact you can't spin the tires = more than just Active Handling nannies, there are some serious faults/shorts/etc. All likely flood related.
Can you track it with the factory ECU/BCM/EBCM: Yes. Is it easy. No. Get the TPMS eliminator from LG and you are done with active handling nannies (assuming everything else is working and not wet/shorted/hosed). There are some big name racers that strip out the BCM/EBCM/ECU and do standalone harness for the ECU only.
Dash without BCM: not likely. BCM does not HAVE to be flashed/programmed specifically for your car: buy a used one for an 05 and drop it in. It is a race car, you don't care about stereo/fobs/AC/magnetic ride/Theft/dimmable whatever so not of that will match but it wills still operate the dash just fine. I did this exact thing.
Other random thoughts since i'm not flush with time:
ABS without BCM: no.
Accusump: skip it, go right to dry sump. Don't waste the money on the Accusump, just save it till you can go Dry.
Can you track it with the factory ECU/BCM/EBCM: Yes. Is it easy. No. Get the TPMS eliminator from LG and you are done with active handling nannies (assuming everything else is working and not wet/shorted/hosed). There are some big name racers that strip out the BCM/EBCM/ECU and do standalone harness for the ECU only.
Dash without BCM: not likely. BCM does not HAVE to be flashed/programmed specifically for your car: buy a used one for an 05 and drop it in. It is a race car, you don't care about stereo/fobs/AC/magnetic ride/Theft/dimmable whatever so not of that will match but it wills still operate the dash just fine. I did this exact thing.
Other random thoughts since i'm not flush with time:
ABS without BCM: no.
Accusump: skip it, go right to dry sump. Don't waste the money on the Accusump, just save it till you can go Dry.
11-04-2013, 03:37 PM
#9
Former Vendor
Limp mode is there to protect you or others from a car that is not functioning as a unit. If there is anything wrong with the throttle by wire, traction control or other it will shut it right down.
Here is how to get rid of the traction control.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...ss-or-two.html
Randy
Here is how to get rid of the traction control.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...ss-or-two.html
Randy
11-04-2013, 03:47 PM
#10
Cruising
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Limp mode is there to protect you or others from a car that is not functioning as a unit. If there is anything wrong with the throttle by wire, traction control or other it will shut it right down.
Here is how to get rid of the traction control.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...ss-or-two.html
Randy
Here is how to get rid of the traction control.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-c...ss-or-two.html
Randy
Question: In LS2 swaps, is the Traction Control still there, or is that a BCM/ABS function? once those are gone, can I safely assume that all TC/AH/TPMS and all other nannies will be gone?
Btw, the thread you linked says nothing about getting rid og TC ... only disabling it. I dont have a TC button, so the thread is useless for me I think.
11-04-2013, 03:59 PM
#11
Cruising
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It sounds like you have flooder car issues still, lots of them.. steering angle sensor fixes idle.. don't think so. That fact you can't spin the tires = more than just Active Handling nannies, there are some serious faults/shorts/etc. All likely flood related.
Can you track it with the factory ECU/BCM/EBCM: Yes. Is it easy. No. Get the TPMS eliminator from LG and you are done with active handling nannies (assuming everything else is working and not wet/shorted/hosed). There are some big name racers that strip out the BCM/EBCM/ECU and do standalone harness for the ECU only.
Dash without BCM: not likely. BCM does not HAVE to be flashed/programmed specifically for your car: buy a used one for an 05 and drop it in. It is a race car, you don't care about stereo/fobs/AC/magnetic ride/Theft/dimmable whatever so not of that will match but it wills still operate the dash just fine. I did this exact thing.
Other random thoughts since i'm not flush with time:
ABS without BCM: no.
Accusump: skip it, go right to dry sump. Don't waste the money on the Accusump, just save it till you can go Dry.
Can you track it with the factory ECU/BCM/EBCM: Yes. Is it easy. No. Get the TPMS eliminator from LG and you are done with active handling nannies (assuming everything else is working and not wet/shorted/hosed). There are some big name racers that strip out the BCM/EBCM/ECU and do standalone harness for the ECU only.
Dash without BCM: not likely. BCM does not HAVE to be flashed/programmed specifically for your car: buy a used one for an 05 and drop it in. It is a race car, you don't care about stereo/fobs/AC/magnetic ride/Theft/dimmable whatever so not of that will match but it wills still operate the dash just fine. I did this exact thing.
Other random thoughts since i'm not flush with time:
ABS without BCM: no.
Accusump: skip it, go right to dry sump. Don't waste the money on the Accusump, just save it till you can go Dry.
Accusump: Already got one form our BMW projects, so will use it for now. Better than nothing, no? And the LS2 seems to be far less death prone than the LS3 (from what I've read).
11-11-2013, 05:02 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
Got your PM and e-mailed you over the weekend - sorry for the delay.
That said, as Joel mentioned, we ran the car for a couple of years with the factory computers in place - they were a huge pain for us. At first, we had FOB issues and I think Joel permanently married it to the harness via zip ties. Then I had several races and sessions were the car would go into limp mode. Quite a few times right at the drop of the green flag - literally, shift from 2nd to 3rd and I would lose all power. Good times.
We tried all sort of fixes and I do think we finally got rid of it by using EFI live to change the parameters so the fail-safes would never engage. It did happen one time after that, but never again. I refused to run it that way for another season and took it all out (saving 131lbs) in the process. We now run the Autotronic SM4 in its place. Sadly, haven't had a bunch of time with it, but it's a proven piece.
We also blew up a low mileage LS2 at Road America, but there was no accusump or dry sump on it. So not sure if the accusump would have helped. I heard LS3's still blow up with drysumps.
There is a nice C6 race car on this forum for sale with all of these issues resolved and a super reliable almost new LS6 installed! :-D
That said, as Joel mentioned, we ran the car for a couple of years with the factory computers in place - they were a huge pain for us. At first, we had FOB issues and I think Joel permanently married it to the harness via zip ties. Then I had several races and sessions were the car would go into limp mode. Quite a few times right at the drop of the green flag - literally, shift from 2nd to 3rd and I would lose all power. Good times.
We tried all sort of fixes and I do think we finally got rid of it by using EFI live to change the parameters so the fail-safes would never engage. It did happen one time after that, but never again. I refused to run it that way for another season and took it all out (saving 131lbs) in the process. We now run the Autotronic SM4 in its place. Sadly, haven't had a bunch of time with it, but it's a proven piece.We also blew up a low mileage LS2 at Road America, but there was no accusump or dry sump on it. So not sure if the accusump would have helped. I heard LS3's still blow up with drysumps.
There is a nice C6 race car on this forum for sale with all of these issues resolved and a super reliable almost new LS6 installed! :-D
11-12-2013, 12:18 AM
#13
Cruising
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Thanks!
Actually just today finally got the car running properly. Reprogrammed the FOB a few days ago so got that solved, but it ran like crap and would not rev past 4k.
Turns out it's the MAF ... unplug it, and she revs like a charm! Also flashed out all the TC and torque management crap with HP Tuners ... so far so good, plenty of donuts in the yard from "testing"
We'll put it back together, and see what happens on dyno and track ... can always go standalone later, and for now, no serious racing planned in this car, just some fun events.
I'd love to buy a sorted car, but budget is a problem (as always)! With several BMW race cars on the go as well, it's hard to spend cold hard cash. Besides, we only have around 10k into it so far, so a while to go yet before we hit your asking price ;-)
Actually just today finally got the car running properly. Reprogrammed the FOB a few days ago so got that solved, but it ran like crap and would not rev past 4k.
Turns out it's the MAF ... unplug it, and she revs like a charm! Also flashed out all the TC and torque management crap with HP Tuners ... so far so good, plenty of donuts in the yard from "testing"
We'll put it back together, and see what happens on dyno and track ... can always go standalone later, and for now, no serious racing planned in this car, just some fun events.
I'd love to buy a sorted car, but budget is a problem (as always)! With several BMW race cars on the go as well, it's hard to spend cold hard cash. Besides, we only have around 10k into it so far, so a while to go yet before we hit your asking price ;-)
11-12-2013, 07:52 AM
#14
Burning Brakes
