Track wheel safety
11-08-2012, 03:53 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Track wheel safety
Track wheel failure:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...r-service.html
Cast or rotary forged wheels are not for track use. The price point is attractive and I know we have several CF members running them, but, it's not if, but when.
I always suggest asking the manufacturer if the warranty applies during a failure on the track - you'll get your answer real quick.
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...r-service.html
Cast or rotary forged wheels are not for track use. The price point is attractive and I know we have several CF members running them, but, it's not if, but when.
I always suggest asking the manufacturer if the warranty applies during a failure on the track - you'll get your answer real quick.
11-08-2012, 06:00 PM
#3
Race Director
Track wheel failure:
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...r-service.html
Cast or rotary forged wheels are not for track use. ]
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...r-service.html
Cast or rotary forged wheels are not for track use. ]
I havent heard of any issues...
Or is this more a problem with aftermarket (lower quality) wheels?
11-08-2012, 08:30 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Great point, GM hasn't changed their wheel strength requirements since the intro of the C4, but they have doubled HP and braking capability. I have read about stock wheel failures on here, so it does happen.
Most of the lower quality wheel co.'s do not spend the money for traditionally forged blanks.
Most of the lower quality wheel co.'s do not spend the money for traditionally forged blanks.
11-09-2012, 12:54 AM
#5
Drifting
I bought a set of TSW's for the track but then shortly after that lucked into another set of Forgelines. I put the rain tires on the TSWs thinking I wouldn't have nearly the forces acting on them in the wet as I do the dry. Glad I did after reading this.
Guess I'll be on the lookout for a set of CCW or another set of Forgelines to replace the TSWs.
Jay
Guess I'll be on the lookout for a set of CCW or another set of Forgelines to replace the TSWs.
Jay
11-09-2012, 11:18 AM
#8
Safety Car
I bought a set of TSW's for the track but then shortly after that lucked into another set of Forgelines. I put the rain tires on the TSWs thinking I wouldn't have nearly the forces acting on them in the wet as I do the dry. Glad I did after reading this.
Guess I'll be on the lookout for a set of CCW or another set of Forgelines to replace the TSWs.
Jay
Guess I'll be on the lookout for a set of CCW or another set of Forgelines to replace the TSWs.
Jay
11-09-2012, 11:22 AM
#9
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They all crack. I know of a set of CCW Classics that cracked although the crack was found while the car was pulling out of the garage and the wheel was making a tink, tink, tink sound. However, John stood behind his wheel and helped the owner.
Bill
Bill
11-09-2012, 12:35 PM
#10
Race Director
Not familiar with Victor Innsbruk, but I have seen plenty of the highly regarded rims broken at autox events (which IMO can be a harsher environment than track - I do both).
Don't feel all warm and fuzzy just because you spent 6k on forged rims, they still need to be inspected EACH SESSION.
Don't feel all warm and fuzzy just because you spent 6k on forged rims, they still need to be inspected EACH SESSION.
11-09-2012, 01:04 PM
#11
Drifting
I was very impressed when I went to the HRE open house. They pride themselves on the strength of their wheels....with that said, the president said if you beat on any wheel long enough (track use) something will happen eventually...
11-09-2012, 01:10 PM
#12
And, even though I purchased the wheels use, John stood behind them. For the record, these were 17" classics of the old thinner design. The replacement centers were the new beefier design.For any wheel that fails, all we hear about is the failure. Folks tend not to mention that they have been sliding into curbing for two years prior to the failure. Sure some stuff is vastly superior to others, but all wheels (and a bunch of other stuff) need to be inspected regularly when used on the track. Hubs come to mind.
11-09-2012, 08:17 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
Glad I have your Finspeed wheels, Daniel! I need all the assurance I can get with Michelin slicks on a ZR1 that I won't be mid-corner at over 1.5g of lateral grip and have a wheel failure.
11-09-2012, 09:32 PM
#14
Safety Car
Does this happen w/street tires or Nitto-RII (agressive street) tires? For sure the Hoosiers will put much more force in the wheel so I would think that makes it much more open to fatigue failure.
11-09-2012, 11:23 PM
#15
Don't powdercoat cast wheels! I once powdercoated a brand new set of ford wheels. All the wheels cracked the first day I took them to the track. Luckily I saw the cracks before any failures. It all has to do with the heat. I believe its around 400* where the aluminum gets soft. Powdercoating could be done at a slightly lower temp., but I'd rather not even attempt it.
Should I even mention all the retards that powdercoat the factory cast calipers?
Should I even mention all the retards that powdercoat the factory cast calipers?
11-10-2012, 12:05 AM
#16
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Don't powdercoat cast wheels! I once powdercoated a brand new set of ford wheels. All the wheels cracked the first day I took them to the track. Luckily I saw the cracks before any failures. It all has to do with the heat. I believe its around 400* where the aluminum gets soft. Powdercoating could be done at a slightly lower temp., but I'd rather not even attempt it.
Should I even mention all the retards that powdercoat the factory cast calipers?
Should I even mention all the retards that powdercoat the factory cast calipers?
There is some science involved, you just can't start powder coating structural parts without understanding what you are doing. Traditionally forged blanks give a lot of piece of mind and , IMO, are the only way to go with track wheels. Companies who use them - CCW, Forgeline, HRE and Finspeed.
It's always wise to ask how the warranty is affected by track use.
11-10-2012, 03:30 AM
#17
Safety Car
I did a whole column on wheels a few months back in Vintage Motorsport magazine. You really do need to check your wheels a little more often than you probably do. Clean them and check them for cracking after every event.
Richard Newton
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11-10-2012, 07:40 AM
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Parts to have life cycles, and buying used parts MAY sound like a good idea, but you dont know the history of that parts use.
Parts fail after time, no matter who makes them.
Parts fail after time, no matter who makes them.
11-10-2012, 07:48 AM
#19
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Interesting see this thread here. I come from the Subaru world and that debate exists there , as anywhere. Some people are of the camp that only the best, most expensive forged are track safe while others (myself included) swear by inexpensive cast wheels.
There's a brand called ROTA that pretty much copies all the high end JDM wheels and does a great job of it while selling for 1/3 -1/4 the price. I had 4 seperate sets of wheels at a time so its either spend $1000 @ set or $2500-4000 @ set, you can see where "bang for the buck" comes into play very quickly. I've used them as track/autox/winter wheels for years and never had a single issue. Some crack and there's always the bandwagon of people who seize that opportunity to call them an unsafe wheel. The reality is Rota sells probably at a 500:1 ratio from wheels like Volk, SSR, Rays..... so yes there are more failures but only because its more widely used. Like saying a Ford is less safe than a Ferrari because there are more Fords getting into accidents....
As mentioned, if you search long enough you'll find even the most expensive wheels break under the same conditions. My experience has been pretty much any wheel save for the super cheapie brands will do for track duty BUT.... like any wheel you need to inspect them after each track day (heck each session technicaly) for damage. IMO track duty is less stressfull than street duty, most track are pretty smooth so unless you run up on the turtles I don't see how the track abuses wheels anymore than your avearage street with potholes, curbs and road debris.
As I'm rather new to the world of Vettes I find it interesting there's widespread use of TSW's. A lot of guys ran them in the VW world , one of my past life's. They had the nickname Totally Soft Wheels as many sets would bend (but not crack). I always suspected this had more to do with the slammed suspension cars they were run on getting some good whacks over speed bumps and curbs.
Bottom line: A wheels is a consumable part like any other part on the car and needs to be checked for wear on a frequent basis. Track day tires need to be inspected for cording, splits etc... while you're down there take that extra time to inspect the wheel its mounted on.
There's a brand called ROTA that pretty much copies all the high end JDM wheels and does a great job of it while selling for 1/3 -1/4 the price. I had 4 seperate sets of wheels at a time so its either spend $1000 @ set or $2500-4000 @ set, you can see where "bang for the buck" comes into play very quickly. I've used them as track/autox/winter wheels for years and never had a single issue. Some crack and there's always the bandwagon of people who seize that opportunity to call them an unsafe wheel. The reality is Rota sells probably at a 500:1 ratio from wheels like Volk, SSR, Rays..... so yes there are more failures but only because its more widely used. Like saying a Ford is less safe than a Ferrari because there are more Fords getting into accidents....
As mentioned, if you search long enough you'll find even the most expensive wheels break under the same conditions. My experience has been pretty much any wheel save for the super cheapie brands will do for track duty BUT.... like any wheel you need to inspect them after each track day (heck each session technicaly) for damage. IMO track duty is less stressfull than street duty, most track are pretty smooth so unless you run up on the turtles I don't see how the track abuses wheels anymore than your avearage street with potholes, curbs and road debris.
As I'm rather new to the world of Vettes I find it interesting there's widespread use of TSW's. A lot of guys ran them in the VW world , one of my past life's. They had the nickname Totally Soft Wheels as many sets would bend (but not crack). I always suspected this had more to do with the slammed suspension cars they were run on getting some good whacks over speed bumps and curbs.
Bottom line: A wheels is a consumable part like any other part on the car and needs to be checked for wear on a frequent basis. Track day tires need to be inspected for cording, splits etc... while you're down there take that extra time to inspect the wheel its mounted on.
11-10-2012, 12:40 PM
#20
Interesting see this thread here. I come from the Subaru world and that debate exists there , as anywhere. Some people are of the camp that only the best, most expensive forged are track safe while others (myself included) swear by inexpensive cast wheels.
There's a brand called ROTA that pretty much copies all the high end JDM wheels and does a great job of it while selling for 1/3 -1/4 the price. I had 4 seperate sets of wheels at a time so its either spend $1000 @ set or $2500-4000 @ set, you can see where "bang for the buck" comes into play very quickly. I've used them as track/autox/winter wheels for years and never had a single issue. Some crack and there's always the bandwagon of people who seize that opportunity to call them an unsafe wheel. The reality is Rota sells probably at a 500:1 ratio from wheels like Volk, SSR, Rays..... so yes there are more failures but only because its more widely used. Like saying a Ford is less safe than a Ferrari because there are more Fords getting into accidents....
As mentioned, if you search long enough you'll find even the most expensive wheels break under the same conditions. My experience has been pretty much any wheel save for the super cheapie brands will do for track duty BUT.... like any wheel you need to inspect them after each track day (heck each session technicaly) for damage. IMO track duty is less stressfull than street duty, most track are pretty smooth so unless you run up on the turtles I don't see how the track abuses wheels anymore than your avearage street with potholes, curbs and road debris.
As I'm rather new to the world of Vettes I find it interesting there's widespread use of TSW's. A lot of guys ran them in the VW world , one of my past life's. They had the nickname Totally Soft Wheels as many sets would bend (but not crack). I always suspected this had more to do with the slammed suspension cars they were run on getting some good whacks over speed bumps and curbs.
Bottom line: A wheels is a consumable part like any other part on the car and needs to be checked for wear on a frequent basis. Track day tires need to be inspected for cording, splits etc... while you're down there take that extra time to inspect the wheel its mounted on.
There's a brand called ROTA that pretty much copies all the high end JDM wheels and does a great job of it while selling for 1/3 -1/4 the price. I had 4 seperate sets of wheels at a time so its either spend $1000 @ set or $2500-4000 @ set, you can see where "bang for the buck" comes into play very quickly. I've used them as track/autox/winter wheels for years and never had a single issue. Some crack and there's always the bandwagon of people who seize that opportunity to call them an unsafe wheel. The reality is Rota sells probably at a 500:1 ratio from wheels like Volk, SSR, Rays..... so yes there are more failures but only because its more widely used. Like saying a Ford is less safe than a Ferrari because there are more Fords getting into accidents....
As mentioned, if you search long enough you'll find even the most expensive wheels break under the same conditions. My experience has been pretty much any wheel save for the super cheapie brands will do for track duty BUT.... like any wheel you need to inspect them after each track day (heck each session technicaly) for damage. IMO track duty is less stressfull than street duty, most track are pretty smooth so unless you run up on the turtles I don't see how the track abuses wheels anymore than your avearage street with potholes, curbs and road debris.
As I'm rather new to the world of Vettes I find it interesting there's widespread use of TSW's. A lot of guys ran them in the VW world , one of my past life's. They had the nickname Totally Soft Wheels as many sets would bend (but not crack). I always suspected this had more to do with the slammed suspension cars they were run on getting some good whacks over speed bumps and curbs.
Bottom line: A wheels is a consumable part like any other part on the car and needs to be checked for wear on a frequent basis. Track day tires need to be inspected for cording, splits etc... while you're down there take that extra time to inspect the wheel its mounted on.
Exactly, wheels are a wear item, like brakes, tires etc. Check them often and if the car is tracked, replace them every two years. I don't care whose brand you run they all will suffer some fatigue after the stress of track use.......be safe and smart !!