TKOGTO

Track road trip is to WGI this year for (2) days with SCDA on 7/9 and 10. Appreciate any recommendations: for what to know beforehand, where to eat, tips to pick up time around the track, etc. Not my 1st track day, 1st @ WGI.

Thanks,
Terry O'

Bill Dearborn

Most of the motels in the area are sort of 1940/1950s basic. There is a new hotel in downtown WG but I have never stayed there. The Falls Motel in Montour Falls is a good place to stay. The closest place to stay is the Seneca Lodge (by the way try out their Prime Rib special and visit the bar). Some schools have the track open the lunch room in the Media Center and that will cost you $10 a person. It is mostly cold sandwiches/soup/salad but you avoid driving to town. If you have to get gas in town then there is the Subway, Burger King, Pizza Hut (great all you can eat Salad Bar/Buffet on weekdays including Desert Pizza).

The best place to pick up time is the Esses. The rule of thumb is there is no car in the world that has so much Horsepower that a good driver can't be wide open from Turn 1 to the entrance to Turn 5 (The Busstop). Doing that depends on whether you have to walk with your legs spread far apart. I used to be able to be wide open in my C5Z but not in the C6Z. However, to do that you need to stay left until you get to the turn in cone for Turn 2 and then as you go by the apex of T2 hold the yellow line on the right until it ends or you see the end of the guard rail on your right (there is an emergency vehicle entrance at the point the rail ends), as your car is going by that point you should be transitioning left toward the apex of T3. You hold the yellow line on the left until it changes color and then let the car go straight across the track toward the entrance to T4 (you can't see where you are going so use the end of the upper catch fence on the right as your visual reference). You are crossing over the crown of the hill here and the front end will be light and may tend to understeer, the car will feel like it is heading for the right side guard rail but if you keep focused on the end of the catch fence it will suck down to the right side of the track and you follow the yellow line until you are past the apex then you let the car track out. Even though you are going up hill the car will be accelerating hard at this point so make sure you have a visual point far enough up the straight to avoid going into the grass on the left side of the track at track out (the track gets a couple of feet narrower there). One time in my C5Z I ran half way up the back straight with the left side tires in the grass (being very careful to get back on track without spinning the car). The bigger the engine the harder the car accelerates and the harder it is to hold the car to the right as you go through this section. The car will be bucking around on the bumps as well so it is a thrilling ride (there is a nasty little dip near the flagger on the right as you exit T4 that will cause the back end to jump to the left). With the C5Z I would be consistently on the rev limiter at 146 mph when I got to the braking zone for the Bus Stop, with the C6Z I am usually over 150 and have hit 157. The back straight is the longest straight on the track but it is far longer if you treat the Esses as just part of the straight. Depending on how much experience you have the first time you encounter T2 the temptation will be to hit the brakes as you go into the turn as the blue guard rail curves into the turn ahead of you. Your eyes are indicating to your brain that this fool is heading straight into a wall at full throttle and another part of your brain tells your foot to hit the brake. Easiest way to get over that is to lift off the throttle just a bit as you near the turn in cone and then roll back into it as you turn in. As you are exiting T1 look at the cars heading into T2 ahead of you and then scan up the hill to see what kind of cars are there and plan how fast you want to enter T2. Slower cars like older BMW 3 Series, Miatas, etc will be slowing down as they go up and you will be accelerating so the closing rate can get quite high and once in there at speed you can't lift much without the car getting twitchy. When you have a clear path and are on the line it is a hoot blasting through there.

Coming out of the Bus Stop portion of T5 make sure you place the car over the black strip in the middle of the track. Do not track out to the track out cone. Basically, as you come out of the Bus Stop you will be turning left so as you come off the rumble strips on the left be anticipating the turn to the right so as you turn the wheel it is a continuous motion from left turn to right turn. If you do it correctly the car will center itself on that strip and will make a gradual turn into the Carousel turn. The inside lane is banked more than the next lane out so hold the car on the yellow line until you get past the apex and then let it track out to go down the chute to 6. In 6 wait to turn until you get to the turn in cone and then using your peripheral vision as you look down track keep the right front wheel to the left of the strip of darker colored sealer as you head to the apex. As you get more familiar with the turn you may find yourself turning in sooner but to start try the really late apex line. Some instructors tell their students to look to their left as they head into the turn and when they see the flag stand at the exit to turn. I can't do that, too unnerving for me. I have to have some vision of where the car is actually pointed when going 70+ mph.

There are several ways through the toe of the boot (T7) most of them about equal in time. I typically tell my students to put their left front tire on the left corner of the concrete strip as they turn in and then head for the apex as they go up hill. With the C5Z I could be pretty much wide open as I went by the apex and let the car track out to just the outside of the white line that is a couple of feet in from the edge of the track. With the C6Z I can't get to wide open until the rear wheels get off the bumpy concrete. Although with slicks on a couple of weeks ago I was able to do that one time so know it can be done with the right tires. I am getting the DRM modded Bilsteins so hope they will solve the problem by reducing the tendency of the rear to hop on bumps. The entrance to T8 is the same. Left front tire on left corner of concrete strip as you turn toward the apex. Entrance to T9 doesn't have to be all the way over to the right side of the track. The blacktop sealer toward the middle from the right side has a lot of grip so you can use that to shorten the distance around the turn.

What ever you do if you get on the rumble strips at the outside of T10 do not try to turn off them. Keep the car on them even if you have to turn the steering wheel to the right and just let the car slow down until you can bring it back onto the track safely. The strips have a ridge and once the tires are past the ridge it is like trying to drive back onto a highway with a drop off. This is where a screw up can cost you a car, injury and $1000 for messing up the nice blue Armco on the other side of the track as the car snap spins across the track into the guardrail. Same goes for the rumble strips at the outside of T1. Trying to get back once over the ridge can spin you into the opposite side wall.

If you get time take a look at some of the videos I posted in the Data Logger thread I started a couple of weeks ago. You can see my line and the lines other advanced drivers take. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...with-data.html Posts 1 and 20. There is more info to provide on T1, T10 and T11 but this should give you an idea of how to run the track.

Bill

TKOGTO

Many thanks Bill. I will review this (repeatedly) with great interest and check out the videos.

Terry O'

Screamin Z

The transition over the tunnel in the esses was the most difficult place to stay in the gas. Now if areo was avalible it might have been a diffrent story

Bill Dearborn

Yes, the same point exiting Turn 3 I was talking about just a different way to reference it.

There are a bunch of different ways to reference things at the track and it helps to know them all. I was instructing at a NASA event on 4/30 and somebody dropped oil from the exit of Turn 8 all the way into the pits. I had decided to do a cool down lap so when I came around the Turn and saw the oil I was going slow enough that it really didn't bother me but I knew it would bother somebody pushing the limit. When I stopped at the Pit Marshall's station as I turned toward the garage I said there was oil at the Exit to Turn 8 and he said "Where is that, I only know the flag station numbers". Luckily, he knew what the heel of the boot was and was able to get a debris flag displayed before an incident occurred. They had black flag the session for quite a bit of time to get the mess cleaned up. I now have to spend some time remembering all the flag station numbers on the track map.

Bill

jlutherva

Terry,
The Glen is not very forgiving. When I was there w/ Chin several years ago, there were three bad wrecks w/ tow ambulance trips to the hospital and at least one car totaled.

Make sure your track insurance is paid up!


Jim

Bill Dearborn

I don't feel it is any less forgiving than a bunch of other tracks and maybe more forgiving than some others. People get worried about the guard rails but they are only close in a couple of areas and they do keep your car out of far more dangerous areas outside the rails. The same screw ups that get your car damaged at the Glen will get the car damaged at just about any other track as well. I have seen videos of cars hitting obstructions at VIR, Pocono, Road Atlanta, etc. Tracks where there seems to be a lot of so called run off room have boulders, trees and other things that suddenly pop up and destroy cars traveling through them.

Bill

TKOGTO

OnTrackInsurance.com for 6 events @ LRP, NJMP and WGI - done.

Thanks,
Terry

RDnomorecobra

you obviously have been there much more than I have, but that pretty blue fence seems to be just about everywhere.

you give a nice review of the track above. all I would say to a novice at that track is take it easy for a session or two through T2 and up the esses. might be a goal to stay flat from T1 to the bus stop but I dont know if I'd go in there with that as my first objective.

John Shiels

You will be in your second session until you know what's coming up next. Go easy and don't wreck. They track has improved since I was there but I have seen a good share of wrecks especially from the ones who were bragging in the pits.

Bill Dearborn

A little story from somewhere around 99 or 00. I was there in my 97 running in the advanced/instructor group. They had several guys running Cup Lite Cars (look like NASCAR Cup cars downsized to toys and use snowmobile engines). There was an instructor who was in a Viper Coupe loaded with slicks and he knew how to drive it. Here is the situation. 3 Cup Light cars were on the inside of the track going slow up the Esses as they had just come out of the pits (this had been discussed in the driver's meeting), there was a Mustang directly in front of me and that Viper was coming out of T1 like a jet launched from a catapult. I was in T2 and knew he would catch me as I exited 3 going to 4 so was planning on giving him a passing signal to the right as I went wide at the apex of 4. Just then my plans went to crap. The rear Cup Light car driver decided he wanted to go fast so pulled left in front of the Mustang, the Mustang driver who was running at about 100 buried his foot on the brakes and went left to avoid the other car. That left me with my foot buried on my brake trying to follow the Mustang. We were out of sight of the Viper driver until he crested the hill and saw the track blocked with cars hard on the brake or moving 60 mph on the right. He went between the guardrail and the far right Cup Light car at well over 100. That is just about the narrowest place on the track and there is plenty of room if you want to use it. When we were talking about the idiot who precipitated the whole thing the guy in the Cup Light on the right said he saw the Viper in his mirror and thought he was dead until it blasted past him at full throttle.

Bill

VatorMan

I really suck but just got back from the Glen. OK Pros-tell me how not to suck next time.

Bill Dearborn

Based on the time (~2:16) you didn't do bad. A couple of points. First you were wide of the apex at T1 which kept you from getting on the power soon enough on the straight leading to T2 (you lost a lot of speed up through the Esses because of that). Second, pulling off the rumble strips like you did between 1 and 2 is dangerous. Just ride them out and come back on the track gradually, if you go over the ridge let off the gas and blow the lap. Third, you were wide in T2 which didn't help your line through 3 as you were close to halfway across the track as you were leaving the apex of 2. Fourth, not sure what gear you were running up the back straight but if you were in 4th there is no need to down shift for the Bus Stop. Some people in Z06s shift to 5th but you need to do that between 3 and 4. I have never had good speed using 5th in my 97, 03Z or my 08Z. Fifth, as you were coming out of the bus stop you took the long slow way around the carousel turn. Don't go all the way out to the track out cone. While making the left inside the Bus Stop use the throttle to yaw the car a little more to the left and then as you are coming off the rumble strips on the left at the exit start turning the wheel back to the right until the car turns right (you were going straight toward the cone before turning right) and take it right over the center black spot in the track. Keep that right turn angle and let the car sweep down to the yellow line as it starts to turn into the Carousel. Remember this used to be the end of the back straight before the Bus Stop was installed so treat the corner the same as they did before the track was modified. The lane right next to the yellow line is banked more than the lane 10 ft out so you can go faster than the guy further out and you have less distance to go. Sixth, at Turn 6 you cheated in a little on the entry which slowed you down some. You were more on the racing line. Seventh, what were you doing shifting between 9 and 10? You should be in third entering 6, going to 4th on the 6-7 straight or if you have a Z06 running to the rev limiter in 3rd (123 mph) before hitting the brakes for 7. Coming out of 7 shift to 4th around the flag station and then back to 3rd for 8 and then stay in 3rd all the way to the front straight. I know some drivers that shift to 4th between 9 and 10 but they are carrying a lot more speed through 10 and 11 than you were. You should be able to knock 5 or 6 seconds off your time if you run a little harder and taking the fast way around the track. Nothing wrong with off line corner entries like some of the ones you made. You need to know how to do get through those as fast as possible as that lets you take late passes at the end of a straight or going into a corner as some clubs are now allowing.

Good job.

By the way were you there with Trac Quest? Did you run into any instructors by the name of Keith or Kirk?

If you are ever there when I am I will gladly ride with you and work with you on reducing your lap times. Every time I do that I learn a lot as well.

Bill

VatorMan

I was solo with CHIN the past 2 days. Thanks for the pointers. I may pick up an instructor for a ride along my next trip this Sept.

TKOGTO

Bill - thanks for the room and board suggestions and of course, the tutorial. Will check out Seneca Lodge prime rib special. Thinking $145/night @ Harbor Hotel is a good combo of amenities and value.

A couple of questions:
(1) re: T3 to T4 caution "You are crossing over the crown of the hill here and the front end will be light and may tend to understeer." Do you suggest a slight lift for better balance?
(2) Re: bus stop suggestion to VatorMan "While making the left inside the Bus Stop use the throttle to yaw the car a little more to the left". Do you mean a little trailing throttle oversteer?
(3) any plans to be there on 7/9 or 7/10?

95jersey

Just respect a place that can damage your car and potentially send you to the hospital. It is old school and there are guard rails at many exit points of the apex. So just when you are tracking out, the guardrail actually comes up closer to the track. Unfortunately there is little room for error. But probably the top 5 most amazing tracks in the US and maybe world. The esses like everyone states are BREATHTAKING.

Liquid1

I've never stayed there but the Harbor Hotel at $145 a night I think is a pretty good deal considering basically every other hotel is very dated ('40s-'50s) and cost near or over $100 a night. If you're looking for a place to sleep only then I recommend the Budget Inn which is about $80 a night and is clean but very basic.

I usually skip lunch at the track because I usually like to fill up, which means heading into town anyway and for $10 I'd rather have Subway rather than a hot dog and sloppy joe.

Breakfast check out Tobe's on 4th (NY 414). Dinner, definitely second the prime rib at the Seneca Lodge but if the weather is good having drinks and dinner on the lake behind your hotel (I don't remember the name of the place) is a very nice option.