froggy47

I assume most organizing bodies have ALL parties sign waivers that attempt to deny any liability to the organizer.

So if you as an "instructor" designated by the organizing body, drive a students car or even if you instruct a student from the passenger side & a wreck results, is there recourse against the instructor?

Or if a student you previously instructed, that day, goes out & has an incident resulting in damage, what's the recourse?

The fun of instructing, for me, is the teaching of how to make the car & driver perform at higher & higher levels, but is there a downside that is not being taken into account?

I know pretty much anyone can sue anyone else for alleged harm/damages/ etc. so more specifically I was wondering if you or your organizer provide any coverage for instructors as a matter of course.

Jason

Waivers are useless.
Anybody can sue you, for anything.
Doesn't mean they'll win.

GT Racing Tires

This thread could go on forever. A lawsuit is unlikely but should there be one the waivers will not cover the organizers 100%. It's all what a jury believes.

I had a student at one of our events that I signed off and on his first solo lap he crashed. He claims it was mechanical. I think I believe him. We are still friends and have had him again as a student at an Audi event.

I can promise you that instructing can get old.

Lawdogg

Haven't seen it, but it would be a good idea for every event organizer to provide each instructor with insurance coverage and/or indemnification.

SouthernSon

Don't forget there is the threshold of gross negligence in all the 48 except Tx. and NY. In those states just simple negligence and you are culpable.

jaa1992

I almost NEVER drive a students car. If I do I drive it at THEIR level (50%-75%), and they have to really beg. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times that has happened in three years.
If a student has a boo boo when I'm instructing they didn't listen to me.
So far I haven't had anyone damage anything expensive.
Have had a few scary moments where I thought it was going to hurt, but so far no hard hits.

travisnd

I thoroughly enjoy instructing... don't really focus on the possibility of getting sued. One thing... if I do drive a student's car I don't take it over 7/10ths. I've only driven a student's car once and it was because he wasn't getting the line and he couldn't fit in the passenger side of my car (was a big guy).

joenationwide

Haha, a student wanting to sue for crashing his own car? Thats some serious douchebag territory. Never considered that one. Of course, every student I've had is usually a pleasure to work with, and any accident they might have I can't help but feel somewhat responsible, because they are my responsibility the whole weekend.

As for driving a students car, thats taking the risk level to a whole 'nother level. I know instructors who do it all the time, and other instructors who never do it. Its certainly elevating the risk factor, and could make for a seriously awkward or heated situation should something go wrong. As an instructor its a personal choice.

Personally, I will occasionally drive a students car. Either to help show the student what I want them to do in their car, or just because I'm excited to drive it (I ain't gonna lie ).

In fact, the whole reason I just bought a Z06 is because I drove a student's Z06 at a recent track event, and it was the most fun I've had on track! In this instance my initial thought was to take it to about 7/10ths (trying to manage/minimize risk). But after a few laps, I felt comfortable going 9/10ths. Sliding the car, and even getting the car airborn on the "jump" (Summit Point Shenandoah bridge straight). Honestly, I still felt like at all times I had room for error and an exit strategy. I stayed within my comfort level. Only one other student did I drive their car to 9/10ths, and that was a student that I've become friends with in an M3 which I'm familiar with. I was drifting the car quite a bit because I wanted to reduce her fear of oversteer.

There's lots of risks in life, track driving is trying to manage a big risk while having fun testing the limits of risk. Some of us are willing to play russian roulette with a 30 round clip.

NVR2L8

It is really pretty simple.

The waivers that are signed by all participants (including instructors) are for the protection of the sponsor and the track.

There is no waiver signed between the instructor and the student, although I have sometimes wondered if there should be. As an instructor, when I get into a car (especially a "beater") that I know nothing about, and a student I have never met, I realize that there is an element of risk involved. This is even more so with very young students that like to push it too soon.

As for driving a student's car, I will do so if asked (as long as it is a car I am comfortable driving), but the same exposure exists.

Same for all driver's. On track incidents are up to the drivers to settle, for better or worse. Thankfully, those are very rare.

But like said above, anybody can sue anybody at any time, whether the claim is valid or not.

varkwso

I hope instructors have a good blanket policy. Nothing can protect you or your heirs from a vindictive heir. My racing partner is an excellent ambulance chasing lawyer and encouraged me to get more insurance.

I almost never touch the wheel from right seat. Only once and that was to prevent an off at Roebling.

I turn down driving a students car I cannot replace due to my negligence. I also tell them I cannot be responsible for other factors (antifreeze on track or wild eyed antics of silver C5s). It is a risk.

Instructing is a financial and physical risk (one fatal instructor incident I know of and many injuries). It is a lot of reward though.

AU N EGL

This topic comes up every so often.

with Jeff

And some states have limited liability to participants and spectators. If you are participating or being a spectator in or at a dangerous activity, you by the fact that you are THERE take the risk or liability and agree not to litigate for any reason.

The NC Equine law was fashioned after the VA and SC Equine laws. NC and VA also have motorsports laws to cover the similar issues.




This does limit liability to a degree.

NC 99E

"§ 99E‑2. Liability.

(a) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, or any other person engaged in an equine activity, including a corporation or partnership, shall not be liable for an injury to or the death of a participant resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities and, except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, no participant or participant's representative shall maintain an action against or recover from an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, or any other person engaged in an equine activity for injury, loss, damage, or death of the participant resulting exclusively from any of the inherent risks of equine activities.

(b) Nothing in subsection (a) of this section shall prevent or limit the liability of an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, or any other person engaged in an equine activity if the equine activity sponsor, equine professional, or person engaged in an equine activity does any one or more of the following:

(1) Provides the equipment or tack, and knew or should have known that the equipment or tack was faulty, and such faulty equipment or tack proximately caused the injury, damage, or death.

(2) Provides the equine and failed to make reasonable and prudent efforts to determine the ability of the participant to engage safely in the equine activity or to safely manage the particular equine.

(3) Commits an act or omission that constitutes willful or wanton disregard for the safety of the participant, and that act or omission proximately caused the injury, damage, or death.

(4) Commits any other act of negligence or omission that proximately caused the injury, damage, or death.

(c) Nothing in subsection (a) of this section shall prevent or limit the liability of an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional, or any other person engaged in an equine activity under liability provisions as set forth in the products liability laws. (1997‑376, s. 1.)"

JeremyGSU

I have never thought of a student suing me. I instructed a friend of a friend one time at an event I was not actually signed up for and he totaled his car into the wall on turn 5 at Sebring and he didn't say anything to me other than what went wrong.

I'll admit depending on the student I can either be very nervous or very calm throughout the session. I've had a few other students go off track either due to loss of brakes or too much throttle oversteer. Both too quick to react to by simply talking into the mic. Most of the time all sessions are trouble free.

However, free events pays off in this expensive sport.

One thing to note, I've seen certain organizations require both the same harnesses/seat setup for driver/passenger. Chin Motorsports, the organization I drive most with does not require this. I've been in plenty where the guy had a full race seat + harnesses and I was on stock 3 pt. Didn't really bother me though as I didn't have a Hans.

I too almost never drive a students car but if I did I only drive it 5/10-7/10ths tops. I just show them the line.

Instructing can be rewarding and frustrating. If they listen and you see they are actually improving then I have a blast. I know I've instructed students who would eventually become better drivers than I am.

varkwso

I won't instruct in a car I think is unsafe. Even with Chin. And Mark has always backed me up.

Improper belts are my pet peeve.

L98Terror

Hopefully not so he can sue you

I need to look into a good blanket policy. What I don't like is taking people for rides that I don't know at all, I'm not sure it will help but I always say you know you are taking your life into your own hands because you never know what can happen out there, I make sure the person understands and acknowledges in front of witnesses. I figure if something happened it really would take a doucher to sue.

sperkins

I used to really enjoy instructing, but I've had too many close calls and riden in too many crappy/unsafe cars to make it worthwhile.
It amazes me the cars that some folks are willing to drive on a race track.

Painrace

I know laws change but here is something that happened to me in the late 60's. I was a paid driver at Daytona. There was no inside guard rails down the back past lake Lloyd. About half way down the back stretch a guy named Marvin Panch and I got together and my car went down into the infield grass. Way out in front of me was a lone Ford station wagon with five people in it eating chicken. I could not control the car on the grass and hit it square with significant damage. The injuries to others were significant. Everyone was sued. I was living in Knoxville Tennessee at the time and had to return to Daytona seven (7) times before the court ruled the occupants had signed waivers and had placed themselves into a very high hazzard area. The travel cost me a lot of time and money and their lawyer was planning on retiring with his proceeds. The court ruled in favor of the track, et al. I would not want to go through that again.

I did not learn my lesson as I do occasionally drive students cars or other's race cars to help them set them up.

I hope everyone knows you are also responsible for track damages! I know of bills for thousands of dollars just for the track readjusting tire walls.

PLAY SAFE!

Jim

travisnd

Jim you always have some good/relevant stories to post

waddisme

As one who has greatly appreciated every instuctor I have had, I can't even imagine holding an instructor liable for anything, let alone suing them. Someone donating their time, sharing their knowlege, risking their life to help someone out shouldn't even have to think twice about liability. Those that sue should be taken out and beaten until they get it, along with the guy who sued Hooters because he couldn't be a waitress or the guy who sued McDonalds because he got fat eating there - wtf????. Just beat them and their lawyers until they get it. The point of this rant is - THANKS to all the instructors.

JeremyGSU

I agree. I've gone to Mark and gotten out of cars I deemed upsafe. But if a guy has a race seat and harnesses for driver and passenger seat is stock with stock belts I don't necassairly consider that unsafe. Especially if you don't have a Hans device. It just depends on the setup around it.

sebdavid

I instruct a lot. Mostly in Canada though. I'm not worried about a student crashing with me in the car and suing me. I'd have more of a leg to stand on suing HIM, morally, unless I give him some stupid instruction, which I try to avoid.

I've been instructing for 3 years, probably around 50-75 days total, and my students have spun twice, and never gone off-track. I usually encourage them to start pushing, but not before they are ready. I also do a lot of off-line driving with them and talk about contingency plans if anything were to go wrong. As an instructor, you're really driving the car by proxy. If a student won't listen, we have the option of demanding they take us to the pit lane for a chat with the chief instructor, and lots of lost track time.

I also regularly drive students'/other people's cars. Occasionally I push it quite hard when I know the car well. I assume 100% responsibility and if something were to happen, I would pay up, no matter the sacrifices it would mean. But in all instance, driving my cars or other people's, I keep enough margin for error to remain comfortably convinced that only a major mechanical failure would mean a bad crash. Illusion? Maybe. But it's served me well up to now, with never a spin and only two benign off-track excursions.

I'm not slow, and I love going over (sometimes way over) the limits of grip, but I'm not racer-fast because I don't need to be; there's no prize money at an HPDE so no need to exploit my abilities as well as the car's 100%. I will most likely start going over the limit a bit more often once I start racing. I try to instill the same thing in students. Sometimes it means bringing them down a few notches until the skill level matches the enthusiasm, sometimes it means trying to encourage them to be more aggressive.