GM process doubles life of brake rotor
12-01-2011, 07:33 PM
#1
Team Owner
Thread Starter
GM process doubles life of brake rotor
Last Updated: December 01. 2011 8:37AM
Scott Burgess
GM process doubles life of brake rotor
Automaker plans to have 80% of lineup using new discs by '16
Warren— Engineering breakthroughs are not always the sexiest topics in the world.
They are about as exciting as watching rust form on a car's rotors — something dealers have hated forever. But now, General Motors Co. dealers may have to wait even longer to see that happen.
GM created a new manufacturing process that slows rust from forming on rotors, extends their life, saves consumers hundreds of dollars, and even eliminate some of that annoying brake dust that builds on beautiful alloy wheels so many cars use today, GM engineers announced Wednesday at the Warren Tech Center.
It's still not sexy, in part, because people typically don't notice when something doesn't happen; they notice only when something does happen.
Leave your car parked at the airport for a week in the winter and you'll see what I mean. When you return, you'll see the rotors covered with a glaze or orange rust. By the time you get home, most of that rust will have disappeared, ground away by the brake pads. But the rust also was stealing a little bit of the disc, bringing disc death, or at least good turning, a little closer. It's basic chemistry.
Jim Webster, GM's brake rotor technical expert, said he's been able to defy chemistry, or at least change it.
For the past five years, Webster and others have been working on making the disc in disc brakes work better. They did that by changing the steel disc's chemistry. The process is known as Ferritic Nitro-Carburizing, or FNC, and what it does is make the steel harder than ever and adds a thin layer, about one-tenth of a human hair thick, of nitrogen bonded to the steel.
The process — which requires baking the rotors at 1,040 degrees for a day — is not nearly as important as the results: a significantly improved rotor.
GM intends to have 80 percent of its lineup using these better discs by 2016, said John Calabrese, GM's vice president of global vehicle engineering.
Calabrese coyly deflected questions about how much these new rotors will cost, but said these rotors were not developed as a money maker for the carmaker. They will be standard on all vehicles that offer them.
"There are things you do for the customer that shouldn't involve only a business plan," he said.
"These are for the customer."
It's a risky proposition: make rotors that will last up to 80,000 miles instead of 40,000 before they need to be ground. Make rotors that will not oxidize quickly. Address an issue that concerns customers. Make a better car. According to GM, 40 percent of customers surveyed said rotor corrosion is one of their top three concerns.
That's most likely because, in recent years, designers have used much more open wheels. Hubcaps and steel wheels used to mask the problem of rusted rotors. Most people never noticed until they felt a shutter in the steering wheel or heard the awful grinding sound of metal on metal when they pushed the brake pedal.
Now, it will take nearly twice as long before the rotors rust up or need significant work. The process doesn't eliminate rusting; eventually, they will, but it does delay it.
It also saves people money. GM said warranty claims on brakes treated with FNC were down 70 percent.
Saving customers money, eliminating another hassle and offering better brakes is not a novel idea; it's a better car. It may not be overly sexy, but it's certainly always smart business.
sburgess@detnews.com
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20111201/...#ixzz1fKhMHWvT
Scott Burgess
GM process doubles life of brake rotor
Automaker plans to have 80% of lineup using new discs by '16
Warren— Engineering breakthroughs are not always the sexiest topics in the world.
They are about as exciting as watching rust form on a car's rotors — something dealers have hated forever. But now, General Motors Co. dealers may have to wait even longer to see that happen.
GM created a new manufacturing process that slows rust from forming on rotors, extends their life, saves consumers hundreds of dollars, and even eliminate some of that annoying brake dust that builds on beautiful alloy wheels so many cars use today, GM engineers announced Wednesday at the Warren Tech Center.
It's still not sexy, in part, because people typically don't notice when something doesn't happen; they notice only when something does happen.
Leave your car parked at the airport for a week in the winter and you'll see what I mean. When you return, you'll see the rotors covered with a glaze or orange rust. By the time you get home, most of that rust will have disappeared, ground away by the brake pads. But the rust also was stealing a little bit of the disc, bringing disc death, or at least good turning, a little closer. It's basic chemistry.
Jim Webster, GM's brake rotor technical expert, said he's been able to defy chemistry, or at least change it.
For the past five years, Webster and others have been working on making the disc in disc brakes work better. They did that by changing the steel disc's chemistry. The process is known as Ferritic Nitro-Carburizing, or FNC, and what it does is make the steel harder than ever and adds a thin layer, about one-tenth of a human hair thick, of nitrogen bonded to the steel.
The process — which requires baking the rotors at 1,040 degrees for a day — is not nearly as important as the results: a significantly improved rotor.
GM intends to have 80 percent of its lineup using these better discs by 2016, said John Calabrese, GM's vice president of global vehicle engineering.
Calabrese coyly deflected questions about how much these new rotors will cost, but said these rotors were not developed as a money maker for the carmaker. They will be standard on all vehicles that offer them.
"There are things you do for the customer that shouldn't involve only a business plan," he said.
"These are for the customer."
It's a risky proposition: make rotors that will last up to 80,000 miles instead of 40,000 before they need to be ground. Make rotors that will not oxidize quickly. Address an issue that concerns customers. Make a better car. According to GM, 40 percent of customers surveyed said rotor corrosion is one of their top three concerns.
That's most likely because, in recent years, designers have used much more open wheels. Hubcaps and steel wheels used to mask the problem of rusted rotors. Most people never noticed until they felt a shutter in the steering wheel or heard the awful grinding sound of metal on metal when they pushed the brake pedal.
Now, it will take nearly twice as long before the rotors rust up or need significant work. The process doesn't eliminate rusting; eventually, they will, but it does delay it.
It also saves people money. GM said warranty claims on brakes treated with FNC were down 70 percent.
Saving customers money, eliminating another hassle and offering better brakes is not a novel idea; it's a better car. It may not be overly sexy, but it's certainly always smart business.
sburgess@detnews.com
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20111201/...#ixzz1fKhMHWvT
12-01-2011, 07:53 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
I wonder how "life" is defined. Normal as opposed to track use. Would love to have stock rotors that last more than 4 track days, assuming of course they're not priced in the stratosphere.
12-01-2011, 11:09 PM
#4
Safety Car
Cost of aftermarket rotor $20, Cost of OEM rotor $50, Cost of new type OEM rotor $100.
Making up numbers but as the saying goes, "you get what you pay for." OEM stuff tends to last longer but if you want it for a replacement you'll pay for it. Most folks being cheap, will get the $20 dollar special that will last maybe 3 years tops. I doubt they would cover "racing use."
Making up numbers but as the saying goes, "you get what you pay for." OEM stuff tends to last longer but if you want it for a replacement you'll pay for it. Most folks being cheap, will get the $20 dollar special that will last maybe 3 years tops. I doubt they would cover "racing use."
12-02-2011, 01:19 AM
#6
Safety Car
Maybe it's just me, but reading between the lines I get the following:
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
12-02-2011, 05:57 AM
#7
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 1999
Location: Miami bound
Posts: 71,447
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
CI 4-5-6-7 Veteran
I did some track testing for a Nitroplating company a few years ago. The rotors looked great and I would do it in a minute on a street car. But DTC70's chewed through the plating and my rotors cracked just as fast.
12-02-2011, 09:10 AM
#8
they spend time and money trying to "improve the brakes" but they still havent addressed the all left hand side rotor issue? 
"40 percent of customers surveyed said rotor corrosion is one of their top three concerns." this is ridiculous
"40 percent of customers surveyed said rotor corrosion is one of their top three concerns." this is ridiculous
12-02-2011, 10:24 AM
#10
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Oct 2002
Location: Cleveland OH
Posts: 50,209
Received 492 Likes
on
419 Posts
St. Jude Donor '11,'13
This is very intresting I wonder how our compounds would hold up.
__________________
Adam Adelstein
Amp’D Autosport.com
Internet's largest retailer of Carbotech Performance Brake Pads.
PH:216-780-8825.
Email: sales@ampdautosport.com
Web Site & Direct ordering http://ampdautosport.com/
All major CC and Pay Pal accepted.
Check out Promo code:z28
Adam Adelstein
Amp’D Autosport.com
Internet's largest retailer of Carbotech Performance Brake Pads.
PH:216-780-8825.
Email: sales@ampdautosport.com
Web Site & Direct ordering http://ampdautosport.com/
All major CC and Pay Pal accepted.
Check out Promo code:z28
12-02-2011, 10:59 AM
#11
Safety Car
If the people who buy your products complain about surface rust but don't complain about performance, which are you going to spend your research dollars improving?
12-02-2011, 11:20 AM
#12
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 1999
Location: Miami bound
Posts: 71,447
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
CI 4-5-6-7 Veteran
Given the speed that the Hawks cut through it, I doubt any track compound would last long. The coating might last awhile with street pads. The rest of the rotor still looked great though. Just the contact area was scrubbed clean, as you'd expect.
12-02-2011, 11:43 AM
#13
Melting Slicks
i would be interested to read some performance specs on the new rotors. it sounds to me like the level of friction between the pad and rotor may be decreased due to the harder material. It sounds to me like this might be the rotor version of ceramic pads. they might dust less and last longer, but at a sacrafice to performance.
12-02-2011, 12:03 PM
#14
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Jun 2004
Location: I tend to be leery of any guy who doesn't own a chainsaw or a handgun.
Posts: 18,350
Received 767 Likes
on
549 Posts
Maybe it's just me, but reading between the lines I get the following:
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
12-02-2011, 05:06 PM
#15
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Maybe it's just me, but reading between the lines I get the following:
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
12-03-2011, 08:40 AM
#16
"AlohaC5" Senior Member
Maybe it's just me, but reading between the lines I get the following:
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
I couldn't have said it better myself. Don't forget, a majority of Corvette owners are 'waxers', so their idea of performance is how long their brake rotors stay shiny and pretty for car shows and cruises.
Last edited by Gray Ghost GS; 12-03-2011 at 08:43 AM.
12-03-2011, 07:55 PM
#17
Safety Car
Maybe it's just me, but reading between the lines I get the following:
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
1. Big fancy "open" wheel deisgns allow people to see more of their brakes.
2. People are stupid so they complain when brake rotors get surface rust; I've seen it on this forum.
3. Said stupid people never wash their car themselves at home and don't realize you get surface rust from a simple wash/dry.
4. GM makes fancy new rotor which resists surface rust longer.
5. Stupid customer's don't complain as much so warranty claims for meaningless BS are down.
6. I already get 70k+ on rotors on my street vehicles. My 2008 Titan just hit 70,000 miles and has the original rotors/pads and they're fine.
7. Notice the article doesn't say anything about performance gains.
8. The article says "brake corrosion" is a top 3 customer concern, but doesn't explain why. Maybe a little customer education would aleviate it as a concern?
My $0.02
I live and work in a salt state. I see factory rotors (on Nissans) lasting 50K+ with little to no issues. The pads go before the rotors, usually. Age effects them more than mileage. In fact mileage is good, if you drive them, the rotors last longer. Sitting kills them.
Not so with most aftermarket brakes, I see only 2 or 3 years before the rotors completely fall apart from the salt. Pads still over half life. Most aftermarket pads are of a hard compound and eat the rotor more than the pad. This is dumb, but life time warranty pads sell. The pad should wear not the rotor.
So what do you want to replace factory with OEM stuff or typical aftermarket junk. (the parts store stuff, NAPA does seem to be a little better???)
Not to hijack, but the 08 and up Titans are much better than the older ones. Lots of improvements. If you ever have your rear exhuast flange behind the muffler fail. Do not let anyone sell you a new exhuast. We have a self designed repair we do to them (at the dealer) cost under 90 with labor. We have only had one come back that failed. Unlike the Nissan design...
Basically, a 2.5inch connector, a 2.5 clamp, and a welder. I think its 2.5 maybe 2.25. I don't look at it, I just know what to do.Titan's are petty good otherwise, occasional pinion seals, axle seals, u-points, exhuast manifolds (covered 8yr/80k), maybe another thing or two.
If you have not already, put in a hose and move the vent on the rear axle up higher, keep it free to spin. Helps with the rear end leaks. Same goes for Frontiers and Xterras.
Transmissions=pretty much bullet proof, same with rear end for the most part.
Engine=definitely bulletproof, we never have problems with the 5.6. It is rare. Lots of 200K+ gas wheel trucks still going. Is a gas hog..
.
12-03-2011, 11:12 PM
#19
Safety Car
Rubie - My Titan us an '08. Shopping them use I wanted an '08 or newer due to the host if upgrades they did and that they fixed some of the glitches. I knew about the tail pipe fix but didn't know about the diff vent. Truck has been great in the 13 months I've owned it. Towed to ten track events now and type this from my 24' enclosed at Road Atlanta. Truck hauls great! Was the best used truck value out there bought in October 2010 with 44,xxx on it and crossed 70k on the tow down on Friday.
12-04-2011, 11:53 AM
#20
Racer
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: Wichita Kansas
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you do warp these new rotors, turning them will grind through the nitrided material leaving the core cast material. Seems this process is only good for keeping your wheels clean. I would imagine of you warp them GM will suggest you replace them $$$$$