Any chargers good for road track use?
12-21-2010, 06:13 AM
#2
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St. Jude Donor '05-'08
Racing or doing HPDE?
We have customers who take out their s/c cars and do HPDE a few times per year. They have additional coolers and really have no issues, but for racing I would think a s/c would add too much weight to the front of the car and heat soak would become an issue.
Call the shop and talk to Doug about it. He has driven many s/c cars (even the ZR1) and can give you his thoughts.
We have customers who take out their s/c cars and do HPDE a few times per year. They have additional coolers and really have no issues, but for racing I would think a s/c would add too much weight to the front of the car and heat soak would become an issue.
Call the shop and talk to Doug about it. He has driven many s/c cars (even the ZR1) and can give you his thoughts.
12-21-2010, 02:07 PM
#4
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12-21-2010, 03:18 PM
#6
Racer
The car will get hot with no other mods to it. Upgraded rad, 160 t-stat and an external engine oil cooler would be pretty much necessary to be able to spend any amount of time on the track. Without this stuff, you'll be very limited in time spent running especially when the temperature outside gets past 25C. The problem with the C5's is they have a limited amount of cooling air available through the front of the car, unlike the C6's which have direct ram air into the rad.
12-21-2010, 03:24 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I think safe to say the better way is to plan a built motor instead. I am having heat issues without a charger as it is. I plan on adding a dewitts rad with built in oil and tran cooler.
12-21-2010, 11:40 PM
#9
Safety Car
Had a procharger on mine until it melted #5 and #7 pistons on backstretch of VIR. Still drove it 3 hrs home on 6 cyls smoking like a steam engine
. Mine was always high maintenance. New motor is 100 hp less and faster lap times and top speeds. That being said, if you only do 2 or 3 a year, you could probably get by.
Apparently the ZR1 has it figured out though. No cooling or heat soak issues that I have heard of. At Rd Atl in the heat of AUG, a black one was turning 162 on backstretch in the afternoon session.
. Mine was always high maintenance. New motor is 100 hp less and faster lap times and top speeds. That being said, if you only do 2 or 3 a year, you could probably get by. Apparently the ZR1 has it figured out though. No cooling or heat soak issues that I have heard of. At Rd Atl in the heat of AUG, a black one was turning 162 on backstretch in the afternoon session.
12-22-2010, 09:54 AM
#10
Racer
Yes a built n/a engine is the ticket for road racing. I have a 383 stroker with a dewitts rad, external oil cooler in front, and a 160 and it gets warm on hot days.
If you haven't done this yet, blow out the a/c condenser from the back side when you get in there to change the rad. Soap and hot water work better yet. You'll be surprised at what comes out of it and how much better the cooling system will work.
The ZR1 is a good example of a properly engineered system...it's not just a Z06 with a blower on it and the price reflects that.
If you haven't done this yet, blow out the a/c condenser from the back side when you get in there to change the rad. Soap and hot water work better yet. You'll be surprised at what comes out of it and how much better the cooling system will work.
The ZR1 is a good example of a properly engineered system...it's not just a Z06 with a blower on it and the price reflects that.
12-24-2010, 04:02 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
"Apparently the ZR1 has it figured out though. No cooling or heat soak issues that I have heard of. At Rd Atl in the heat of AUG, a black one was turning 162 on backstretch in the afternoon session."
Th ZR1s running down here in homestead and Sebring ARE having heat issues. by the 2nd or 3rd session in spring summer and early fall, the ZR1s are pulling power and i can pull on them down the back straight at Sebring both cars pedal to the floor. (I'm in a tuned z06 w/ headers intake R6s). Many of them are packed up after lunch cause they can't run in the heat. If you wanna be guaranteed a great road course car just get a used C6z
Th ZR1s running down here in homestead and Sebring ARE having heat issues. by the 2nd or 3rd session in spring summer and early fall, the ZR1s are pulling power and i can pull on them down the back straight at Sebring both cars pedal to the floor. (I'm in a tuned z06 w/ headers intake R6s). Many of them are packed up after lunch cause they can't run in the heat. If you wanna be guaranteed a great road course car just get a used C6z
12-24-2010, 04:12 PM
#12
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"Apparently the ZR1 has it figured out though. No cooling or heat soak issues that I have heard of. At Rd Atl in the heat of AUG, a black one was turning 162 on backstretch in the afternoon session."
Th ZR1s running down here in homestead and Sebring ARE having heat issues. by the 2nd or 3rd session in spring summer and early fall, the ZR1s are pulling power and i can pull on them down the back straight at Sebring both cars pedal to the floor. (I'm in a tuned z06 w/ headers intake R6s). Many of them are packed up after lunch cause they can't run in the heat. If you wanna be guaranteed a great road course car just get a used C6z
Th ZR1s running down here in homestead and Sebring ARE having heat issues. by the 2nd or 3rd session in spring summer and early fall, the ZR1s are pulling power and i can pull on them down the back straight at Sebring both cars pedal to the floor. (I'm in a tuned z06 w/ headers intake R6s). Many of them are packed up after lunch cause they can't run in the heat. If you wanna be guaranteed a great road course car just get a used C6z
12-24-2010, 08:47 PM
#13
Drifting
Don't do it. And I am speaking from experience. It was not a Vette, but I had a Procharged Cobra that I tracked for years and while the off-corner acceleration was intoxicating, I was faster once I went back naturally aspirated. Like Johnny said with his, I lost 200hp and got FASTER at every track I visited after building a strong NA engine.
The heat issues, fuel issues, stumbling issues, hard to control power, etc. are just simply not worth it.
-Kevin
The heat issues, fuel issues, stumbling issues, hard to control power, etc. are just simply not worth it.
-Kevin
12-24-2010, 11:27 PM
#14
12-25-2010, 07:21 AM
#15
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Don't do it. And I am speaking from experience. It was not a Vette, but I had a Procharged Cobra that I tracked for years and while the off-corner acceleration was intoxicating, I was faster once I went back naturally aspirated. Like Johnny said with his, I lost 200hp and got FASTER at every track I visited after building a strong NA engine.
The heat issues, fuel issues, stumbling issues, hard to control power, etc. are just simply not worth it.
-Kevin
The heat issues, fuel issues, stumbling issues, hard to control power, etc. are just simply not worth it.
-Kevin
But We hear you
12-26-2010, 05:59 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Racing or doing HPDE?
We have customers who take out their s/c cars and do HPDE a few times per year. They have additional coolers and really have no issues, but for racing I would think a s/c would add too much weight to the front of the car and heat soak would become an issue.
Call the shop and talk to Doug about it. He has driven many s/c cars (even the ZR1) and can give you his thoughts.
We have customers who take out their s/c cars and do HPDE a few times per year. They have additional coolers and really have no issues, but for racing I would think a s/c would add too much weight to the front of the car and heat soak would become an issue.
Call the shop and talk to Doug about it. He has driven many s/c cars (even the ZR1) and can give you his thoughts.
Only SC (Procharger but not an ECS install) C5 I've seen at the track has had numerous problems, with belts, heat, lubrication issues etc. Costs him a lot in lost track time too.
12-26-2010, 06:26 PM
#17
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I had a magnacharged C5Z06. It was an absolute beast on the road, like a BIG block car but very docile when not being flogged.
I brought it to the track a couple of times, in my earlier track years, and it was fine with the stock cooling...but I was slow...1:06s at LRP. No doubt, with the proper cooling upgrades (that are still needed on the stock cars) it can be a good partner on track, it's just not often done. Is it PERFECT?...no, but not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.
It was very funny when I brought the car to Doug at ECS with a larger pulley and asked him to put methanol injection on the car, for cooling the intake charge and blower, and asked him to then swap out the small pulley and install a larger one. He said I was the first ever customer to ask for LESS POWER. The car was originally set up for the street and strip and the power delivery was violent. I wanted a smoother power delivery and to dial it back a bit for longevity. ECS did a great job - car made great power, about 475tq/hp, and a smooth powerband - was quite intoxicating at LRP and Pocono with no real ill effects from extra heat.
Sure, any car with more power will need cooling mods. The problem I think people have with supercharged cars is that they tune them to very close to the max. A procharged car can easily make more than 500rwhp, and they often do. I think if the power levels were kept to reasonable/modest power levels, there'd be less issues when run at the track. But that's tough to do for most. It's also tough to keep the revs down - with a blower, at least the maggie, you don't need to rev the car to redline, which will make much more heat to be managed.
Blower for the track? It can be done, has been done, I just think it's not been done with as much prior planning as most do when they build an NA car. Big block motors that are built from scratch have much planning involved and every part is scrutinized and used for a reason. You would need to put that same attention into an SC build for the track, too.
I think most just install the SC system and have at it...which will lead to issues, similar to minimalist H/C stock cube systems.
I currently run a H/C setup with no issues (would prefer a 427ci), but if I was forced, no pun intended, to run a SC on the track I'd probably go Procharger (Prochargers make less heat at higher rpms, although I did love that maggie's low-rpm torque...it was a beast on the street). I'd use waterinjection for the intake temps with a full-size intercooler, too. Upgraded cooling for the engine, oil, and vented hood with Swaintech coated headers...the usual suspects for any hard-pressed track cars. BUT - I'd have it tuned to keep it under 500rwhp...at least until I couldn't fight the "boost addiction".
JUst my 2 cents, if only worth a penny.
Be good,
TomK
I brought it to the track a couple of times, in my earlier track years, and it was fine with the stock cooling...but I was slow...1:06s at LRP. No doubt, with the proper cooling upgrades (that are still needed on the stock cars) it can be a good partner on track, it's just not often done. Is it PERFECT?...no, but not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.
It was very funny when I brought the car to Doug at ECS with a larger pulley and asked him to put methanol injection on the car, for cooling the intake charge and blower, and asked him to then swap out the small pulley and install a larger one. He said I was the first ever customer to ask for LESS POWER. The car was originally set up for the street and strip and the power delivery was violent. I wanted a smoother power delivery and to dial it back a bit for longevity. ECS did a great job - car made great power, about 475tq/hp, and a smooth powerband - was quite intoxicating at LRP and Pocono with no real ill effects from extra heat.
Sure, any car with more power will need cooling mods. The problem I think people have with supercharged cars is that they tune them to very close to the max. A procharged car can easily make more than 500rwhp, and they often do. I think if the power levels were kept to reasonable/modest power levels, there'd be less issues when run at the track. But that's tough to do for most. It's also tough to keep the revs down - with a blower, at least the maggie, you don't need to rev the car to redline, which will make much more heat to be managed.
Blower for the track? It can be done, has been done, I just think it's not been done with as much prior planning as most do when they build an NA car. Big block motors that are built from scratch have much planning involved and every part is scrutinized and used for a reason. You would need to put that same attention into an SC build for the track, too.
I think most just install the SC system and have at it...which will lead to issues, similar to minimalist H/C stock cube systems.
I currently run a H/C setup with no issues (would prefer a 427ci), but if I was forced, no pun intended, to run a SC on the track I'd probably go Procharger (Prochargers make less heat at higher rpms, although I did love that maggie's low-rpm torque...it was a beast on the street). I'd use waterinjection for the intake temps with a full-size intercooler, too. Upgraded cooling for the engine, oil, and vented hood with Swaintech coated headers...the usual suspects for any hard-pressed track cars. BUT - I'd have it tuned to keep it under 500rwhp...at least until I couldn't fight the "boost addiction".
JUst my 2 cents, if only worth a penny.
Be good,
TomK
Last edited by ace996; 12-26-2010 at 06:34 PM.
12-27-2010, 09:09 PM
#18
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Like brkntrxn and others have pointed out, yes it can be done. But it shouldn't be. I also did it in a supercharged Cobra for six years. I'm a much better and happier driver now without one.
I also tuned my DOWN in HP and ran it pig rich to keep it more "reliable." It worked to a small extent and the power is great, but not the headaches and cost that go with it.
There are no real advantages on track. You gain extra weight, more complexity, more stuff to go wrong, more maintenance, racing fuel etc. ZR1 is engineered to do it but a naturally aspirated motor for any kind of track work is the the ticket for reliability. With reliability comes better lap times.
John
I also tuned my DOWN in HP and ran it pig rich to keep it more "reliable." It worked to a small extent and the power is great, but not the headaches and cost that go with it.
There are no real advantages on track. You gain extra weight, more complexity, more stuff to go wrong, more maintenance, racing fuel etc. ZR1 is engineered to do it but a naturally aspirated motor for any kind of track work is the the ticket for reliability. With reliability comes better lap times.
John
12-27-2010, 10:01 PM
#19
Drifting
I forgot about that little nugget. When I pulled the ProCharge off my car, I lost just over 80 lbs off the nose. And every single bit of that was in front of the front tires, the absolute worst place for extra weight.
But gawd do I miss that whistle and the pull coming off a corner, LOL.
-Kevin
(he who has been looking at the 01 Cobra vert sitting in his garage and thinking "blower and cams and a little tune" once again
)
But gawd do I miss that whistle and the pull coming off a corner, LOL.
-Kevin
(he who has been looking at the 01 Cobra vert sitting in his garage and thinking "blower and cams and a little tune" once again
)