LeMans05C6

I am going into my 3rd HPDE event. With the Driver's Edge around here in the Dallas/FW area they run quite a few events and I am hopefully going to skill out to be solo in thier "Blue" Group.

Green = Novice
Blue = Intermediate (some solo/some with instructors)
Yellow = Advanced (i think instructors sometimes check on these people)
Red = Very advanced (Solo with passengers)

I am going to MSR 1.7 CW this weekend in Cresson and have driven the 3.1 as well as the 1.7 CCW. So i feel pretty confortable with the track and the first session should renew my feel for it.

Here is my question... for those of you that have progressed very high are there certain things to work on that will be crucial later on.

I have read "Speed Secrets" and am currently reading the Skip Barber Racing Book (the big blue one). There are techniques in there that are mentioned for driving and certain things you may want to work on first and save others till later. I thought i would poll the audience to see what words of wisdom come from other vette drivers who enjoy the Road Courses.

Trail Braking? When should that be something that you should start to incorporate in your driving.

Deeper braking....I know to go faster doesn't mean to just dive in the corners but really its just trust your car and your brakes more and knowing how late is "just right".

The Racing line: Simple yet so complicated with small variations. What is the best way to work on the finesse here. Using the whole track is a must from edge to edge to increase the radius of the turn, but also the double apex turns, the Ssss that can set you up for a straight-away but can eat some time if you come into it wrong as well.

Things like this or anything else would be appreciated. I am starting to dive deeper into this hobby and am just trying to see what others would have me work on besides the instructors that ride with me. Everyone is a bit different so the more input the better.

Aardwolf

The single biggest thing that helped me learn to drive better were rain events. They can be so miserable but so awesome at the same time.

95jersey

Best thing that will help you right now is keeping an instructor in the car for as long as possible. Try and get someone different each time (good to see different perspectives).

Not to sound harsh or like a nag, but I would ask, why are you so eager to go solo? Is there something you want to do on the course that you otherwise wouldn't do with an instructor in the car? If so, it doesn't sound smart idea with only 2 events under your belt.

You should be able to drive hard and fast with any instructor as long as you are safe. I kept using instructors even after I had a ZERO behind the number of events you have been to!

Unless you are some amazing natural talent, you have a ways to go before you get into advanced driving techniques such as trail braking and such. For now do all your braking in a strait line. Right now, work on SMOOTH transitions in braking zones and turns. Sorry, not to rain on your parade, but with only 2 events, if I was instructing you...you wouldn't be solo.

Todd Z

I agree with 95 Jersey. Keep an instructor as long as you can. Even after you go solo have one jump in with you on occasion. If I go to a new track I will ALWAYS look for help. Just because I might have 10,000miles plus at Road America there will be little things that might take a long time to pick up unless somebody tells you. Your own seat time and help are the most valuable.

LeMans05C6

I guess that came off wrong... I am not looking to get out there and be by myself ASAP thinking I can't learn more from an instructor, they got to where they are for a reason and I could spend full days with one in my car and be scratching the surface of the seat time i need (which the answer is always more)

**My last session of my last event in May i got to run on my own, the last group of the day and the instructor was trying to wrap up his world as well. I was near the front of the pack and got out in the lead, which i never lost. It was just a great feeling of being out there with just me my car and the track...it was something I have wanted to do for a very long time. It was strange too when the instructor wasn't in the car I felt even more aware of the corner workers and flags and what was going on then before. Maybe just in a zone that time but it was a great feeling.

That aside....

Thanks for the good advice guys. Ill keep them with as long as I can... and i know each one is different and can add a certain perspective another one may not know. Having only had two instructors this thought will probably change, but I am sure everyone out there has had instructors that you feel have a much better grasp of driving a car at the limit than some of the others. Just the difference between the two that I had was quite interesting in what they told me and even how to hold the steering wheel. Everyone is a bit different in certain things, but smoothness and awareness are both always in need of improvement. I will just go out there with a plan of some turns and techniques i really want them to work with me on and critique me on to help improve my ability.

Also good to know its far from the time to start on the advanced techniques. I really need to feel like I am pushing my car much harder doing the basics before i add something else to the mix. I just wasn't sure if it was something you SHOULD start practicing or it can wait till later. One step at a time master the line and smoothness of inputs before adding more to it.

I am getting anxious to go out there this weekend, been watching youtube videos just to get the track layout more and more cemented in my mind. I am going to try and go walk it on Friday night as well to put my feet on the pavement...literally! Wish me luck.

Kubs

with both these guys. I have been to lots of HPDEs and usually run solo but even at the intermediate/advanced level I have someone ride just for feedback purposes. It is a valuable tool.

SouthernSon

What 95 Jersey said. Also, work on your braking points, turn in, apex and track out. Even though you may not have enough speed at first to use all of the track out, go there anyway to learn the correct line. Never let speed dictate your line. Always, no matter the speed, follow the correct line, not other cars in front. After you learn a good braking point (use the brake once, when possible), you will need to learn how much speed to carry through the apex letting off the brake and rolling on all four equally. Then work on 'how soon' you can roll on throttle through the apex. And remember this, while working on these things, as your speed picks up, don't let the feeling of needing to get started on the turn sooner by turning in sooner overwhelm you. Stay on line. These things sound simple but it will take many events to feel comfortable perfecting these points. But that is the fun; seeing yourself improve! In a couple of years, after you have perfected countersteer and correction, start your trailbraking. Trailbraking comes after consistent braking performance by you and your equipment.

Oh yeah, welcome to the Darkside!

jmorgan07z06

Vision is key! Be sure and really turn your head to look through the corners. Looking far ahead will slow the track down without compromising your speed guaranteed.

Some instructors drive miatas or other low horsepower cars which are commonly called "momentum cars". These guys drive slightly different lines and don't brake as hard because they can't afford to lose speed.

I have done 15 to 20 two day events with the driversedge and run in the red group now. Their instructors are very good but you may get paired with that miata or mini guy. I know your feeling about driving solo. Instructors are always helpful for novice but sometimes you may get distracted when he or she is telling you about a turn you made 4 turns back and you lose focus on what you are doing.

I recommend buying a Flipvideo camera ($180) or a gopro camera. AJ as PST sells them in the shop with a suction cup mount. Record your day and review your session at night if you have a laptop. You might just pickup on what the instructor was telling you when you don't have to worry about hitting your next braking or turn in point.

Most important have fun

sothpaw2

I've only progressed to solo (white) groups in with various PCA groups. But I've run with Audi, NCM Corvette, and BSR at Summit additionally. What I have to tell you is that the skill level is very different with each group, including between PCA chapters. The disparity is great.

So, in answer to you question: I would say if it's a track that this group does a lot (several events per year), that a Blue group will be very familiar with the details of the line. I mean intimitate, minor details. You need to stay in green until you have the vast majority of that down with most clubs (unless that club does very few events and few or 1 at that track).

Deep braking comes naturally once you are solo and the line is second nature (not to say you don't alter the line--the line changes w/environmental changes like sun load, rain, or if they re-pave areas etc). You don't see it in Green anywhere.

Trail braking is a little more advanced but you see it in solo groups a lot. You pick that up not long after you solo.

With just a few HPDEs prior experience, I would go with Blue but be careful--with that format you will be one of the slower ones for a while.
Typically there is a green, yellow, then White (intermediate), then Black, then Instructor (RED). Your group sounds like they are merging yellow and white and you are yellow--so it will be a little tough on you. Watch your mirrors and if you see somebody behind you that was not there before--let them pass!!!!

In the above regard--blue group--with just 2 HPDE you are certain to need an instructor unless you have gobbs of on track experience in bikes or carts, etc. I didn't solo until after my 5th day (several 1 day events plus a 2 day).

Andy

drivinhard

nothing has helped me find speed more in the last year than stealing Khoi's traqmate, pouring over the data, and making changes (most in the driver, some in the car).

if all you had to look at was a friction circle, you'd be getting 90% of the data you need, because you can see what and where you are leaving it on the table.

LeMans05C6

I have been looking into Camera's to go back and watch myself and see where i am either getting lazy and not focused, or what turns i am hitting right. I have seen some youtube videos with the data overlay and that is eventually where i would like to be.

I am looking at the GoPro Motorsports HERO HD. for the price and mounting options it seems like a great starter camera for me to use. Amazon has it at $270 with $21.96 one-day shipping. I think I may go for it.

jmorgan07z06

It would be worth it. I think that you rode with me in May on the 3.1?

spazegun2213

Ok, so My timeline is very different from others, but the learning curve is the same. I did my first event, in 2005, and was racing in 2007. In 2006, i had more than 30 days at the track, when I could not afford to drive, I'd just sit in class and get rides. I actually never read a book, I decided that I'd learn by doing, and had a great time.

You will learn all these things in time... and I mean in time. You should have a firm grasp on vision, both locally (ie your mirrors, location of other cars, etc) and globally (flags, critters, gators, that puddle in turn 4, etc). You also need to have your car control down and be able to drive your car where ever you want it to go, be able to heel toe, drive off line, drive in the rain, in the dry, etc. Once you have all of that down then you can start experimenting a little.... like can I brake a little later... how about much later. Without the foundation and knowledge of what your car can and cannot do, you'll have no idea when you are in over your head until something really bad is about to happen. If you have that foundation and you push a little to much, you know how the car will react, say when one tire hits the dirt, and you can recover. On trail braking if you hold it to long you will spin.. I know... even with the wing on the back of my car I was still pointed toward traffic at oak tree this year because I got greedy with the pedal (and I thought i was going to bite it when 3 cmc cars came flying by).

So, dont worry about reading and applying these more advanced techniques. Just concentrate on honing you skill on the things you can right now, and before you know it you'll be doing them.

As for the "racing line" my philosophy is its anything black..... and the brown stuff right next to it on occasion..... and maybe the green stuff next to the brown stuff, but only if its 100% required... and that black rubbery stuff, or the silver shiny stuff right next to the green stuff is NEVER part of the line and should be avoided at all costs. Once again, this will come in time...

LeMans05C6

Jmorgan I did ride with you back in May. Are you going to MSR this weekend? Camera is ordered with 16gb card so i should be good to go I hope. Test it on the way to the track on Friday. I am going to go out there Friday and hopefully get a chance to walk the track. Be nice to take it slowly on foot to get a feel for certain things camber and track feel.

Spaz, I wish i could do what you have done, that sounds like what i hope to do in time. I am 27 so $$ isn't just floating around but i am choosing to my money towards more seat time and things like that as opposed to other hobbys. I will probably not get 30 track days in a year but hopefully in the next few years i can hope to have that feel. Right now i have only done one track but I'd like to try NASA for one of thier HPDE events in Oct at Eagles Canyon. Seems the only time ill get to run out there for a full weekend this year. A single day session would feel over too quickly but still would be nice.

NASA feels like a good way to get some track experience as well since it leads towards a more compeititive end product and a nationally recognized racing license as well.

Great feedback so far from all of you guys. Please keep it coming.

jmorgan07z06

I will not be able to make it to the driversedge event this weekend but I will be there this Friday with a freind who is a member at the track. Make sure that you have lots of batteries for your camera...the GoPro's eat them up very quickly. I can tell that you have the bug now and think that you will progress at a faster pace than those who are less commited. It's gonna get expensive.

LeMans05C6

I am going to try and get out there Friday after the track is done to get some foot time on it. I envy you getting run with a member, I would guess its a much less crowded track that way. Enjoy man and hope to see you at the next one.

rfn026

I like to keep it simple. Each time you go out for a session concentrate on one thing - and one thing only. Most people try to do too much.

In your first session concentrate on your vision - look ahead. Don't worry about anything else. Just concentrate on looking ahead. That has to become a natural habit and you acquire the habit through practice.

Next session concentrate on corner exit. Keep trying to get on the gas sooner. Take all the time in the world going into the corner and then work on the exit.

Each session needs it's own specific goal. As you learn you might get to the point where you work on an individual corner. I usually spend one session at Sebring trying to get turn 17 right. btw - I still haven't done it.

Keep it very simple and very focused. Also, let your instructor know the goal for that session. Share your goal with the instructor.

Richard Newton
Speed TV Blog

drivinhard

I usually tell my students per session to work on 1 driver thing (seat position/hand position, whatever) and 1 track thing (a certain corner, section, etc) maybe 2 track things if they are on opposite ends of the track. then after both are improved, move on to 1 and 1 other thing. 2 days of that during a weekend, and you've made a ton of progress by end of 2nd day.

Jason

The one single thing you can to do get faster is:
Compete.

Whether it is NCCC or SCCA autocross or NASA TT or Time Attack or whoever. Nothing will raise your game faster than competition. Find every chance you can to get on the clock.

Bill Dearborn

Keep the instructor in the car as much as possible. Most of your questions can be answered by the instructor in the car with you. I am instructor but for many years before I became one I attended BMW HPDEs. Their rules require each student no matter what run group they are in to be signed off by an instructor before they go solo. For several years in the Advanced Group I would be signed off after the first session of the first day. I would ask the instructor to ride with me in all of the following sessions and they usually did. During those sessions I would work on Advanced techniques and do some things to work on instructing skills so I could enter their Instructor Training School.

Bill