'07 Z51 Brake Upgrde Conundrum...
07-05-2010, 05:38 PM
#1
5th Gear
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'07 Z51 Brake Upgrde Conundrum...
Alright, well, I'm officially in the market for some new brakes for my Z51 C6, and I'm a bit torn. The rotors and pads are about shot on my car, so, in my research I found a couple of options:
1.) Buy new aftermarket rotors and pads and go with it from there.
2.) Buy a whole new C6 Z06 brake kit (calipers, rotors, pads, lines) to bolt on to the car.
I've never tracked the car (or any car for that matter), but I've already got my first track date set and I'd like to get out there with the right equipment. I've got a few concerns, however, and I was hoping some of the more experienced can help out this novice. I'd like to upgrade the brakes as the difference in price between the two options is negligible (I'm assuming the performance of the Z06 footwork is noticeably better than the Z51 setup), but I'm worried that I'd be wasting money and getting equipment that I won't be able to really use properly as I'm such a noob to all this. Assuming all goes well on the first shot out, I'd like to really start getting into more track days (always wanted to, now can afford to do so) so I reckon that the brake upgrade might be necessary sometime in the future and I could save some time while I'm replacing the brakes for the first time. I figured I'd better pose this question to folks who know a bit more about this than I do - any advice would be helpful. Thanks!
1.) Buy new aftermarket rotors and pads and go with it from there.
2.) Buy a whole new C6 Z06 brake kit (calipers, rotors, pads, lines) to bolt on to the car.
I've never tracked the car (or any car for that matter), but I've already got my first track date set and I'd like to get out there with the right equipment. I've got a few concerns, however, and I was hoping some of the more experienced can help out this novice. I'd like to upgrade the brakes as the difference in price between the two options is negligible (I'm assuming the performance of the Z06 footwork is noticeably better than the Z51 setup), but I'm worried that I'd be wasting money and getting equipment that I won't be able to really use properly as I'm such a noob to all this. Assuming all goes well on the first shot out, I'd like to really start getting into more track days (always wanted to, now can afford to do so) so I reckon that the brake upgrade might be necessary sometime in the future and I could save some time while I'm replacing the brakes for the first time. I figured I'd better pose this question to folks who know a bit more about this than I do - any advice would be helpful. Thanks!
07-05-2010, 07:13 PM
#3
Safety Car
First time out just get some C6Z06 ducts and a Quantum motorsports spindle duct setup with your stock brakes.
Any kind of big brakes need different wheels & tires (big bucks) so give it a go first I'm using hawk HP+ pads and the above setup. I'd like bigger brakes but $1700 for the smallest Wilwood's Sl6 and then about $2000 -$5000 for whees & tires is just too much
after you have a few times under your belt you will know better where to go with line of thought
Any kind of big brakes need different wheels & tires (big bucks) so give it a go first I'm using hawk HP+ pads and the above setup. I'd like bigger brakes but $1700 for the smallest Wilwood's Sl6 and then about $2000 -$5000 for whees & tires is just too much
after you have a few times under your belt you will know better where to go with line of thought
07-05-2010, 07:22 PM
#4
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Staying with the stock rotors will help you get used to the car without having to troubleshoot a new setup. It will take you a year to learn the line at your local track and become fast and confident enough to need more brake. You can get some track pads from Carbotech for the fronts for under $300. Quantum will sell you a duct/spindle kit and you will be on your way.
Have fun with an amazing car on a track where it should be!
Have fun with an amazing car on a track where it should be!
07-05-2010, 07:24 PM
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First time out just get some C6Z06 ducts and a Quantum motorsports spindle duct setup with your stock brakes.
Any kind of big brakes need different wheels & tires (big bucks) so give it a go first I'm using hawk HP+ pads and the above setup. I'd like bigger brakes but $1700 for the smallest Wilwood's Sl6 and then about $2000 -$5000 for whees & tires is just too much
after you have a few times under your belt you will know better where to go with line of thought
Any kind of big brakes need different wheels & tires (big bucks) so give it a go first I'm using hawk HP+ pads and the above setup. I'd like bigger brakes but $1700 for the smallest Wilwood's Sl6 and then about $2000 -$5000 for whees & tires is just too much
after you have a few times under your belt you will know better where to go with line of thought
07-05-2010, 07:38 PM
#7
Drifting
So much we could tell you. Where should we start? I'll just toss a few misc. thoughts into the room...
1. If you will be 'tracking' your car, then you should avoid spending lots of money on the brakes. You will be wearing them out MUCH faster, so they can become a major expense. You're better off with a low to moderate priced upgrade; something that increases reliability while maybe improving performance just a bit.
2. Avoid cross-drilled rotors, as they crack faster and worse than non-drilled rotors. There are only two reasons you would want to buy cross-drilled rotors: 1) they look cool on street cars, and 2) someone else is paying for them (like a major sponsor). Slotted rotors are ok, but also more expensive than plain flat-surface rotors.
3. The C6 Z06 brakes have 6 padlets on each front wheel. The padlets are more expensive, and they tend to taper (wear more on the leading edge than trailing edge) very quickly. So Z06 brakes will cost you more in the long run, because you will have to replace the more expensive padlets more often.
4. You will find that the stopping power of your brakes is not nearly as important as how long they last. We all want brakes that can stop the car "like you threw out an anchor", but if they start fading near the end of your first session and you have no brakes by the end of the third session, then your track day will be ruined. So you need to get a brake package that can survive the demands of racing.
a. Get pads that can take the heat without glazing. Cheap pads will also wear much faster when they get hot, maybe even wearing down to the pad backing in only one track day. I've even heard of cheap pads disintegrating when they got very hot. Then the chunks of pad can cause one wheel to lock up unexpectedly - A VERY BAD THING!
b. Expect your rotors to develop small surface cracks by the end of your first day. These are sometimes called "heat-checking", and they are completely normal in the track-days world. You do not need to replace those rotors until the cracks grow in size where you can easily snag a fingernail in the crack, or until a long crack reaches the edge of the rotor. Both of these indicate that the cracks are nearly bad enough for the rotor to come apart. When a rotor comes apart on track, a crash almost always happens.
c. Soon (not necessary for your first track day, but soon after) you need to install some brake ducts that go all the way to the spindle. The more air you can force through the rotors, the cooler the whole brakes system will be, and the less chance of brake fade ruining your track day.
d. Replace your brake fluid with a good quality fluid that can take the heat without boiling. I prefer Motul RBF600, but there are several similar products. If you can't flush all the old fluid out, then at least replace the fluid in the master cylinder resourvoir (spelling) ASAP, and drive for a few days to mix that fluid into the rest of the system. (Use something like a turkey baster to suck the old fluid out.) Then replace the fluid in the master cylinder again before your first track day session.
(While you're at it, also replace the fluid in the clutch master cylinder a few times until it remains relatively clean when you pump the clutch pedal. Then drive for a few days and replace it again. The fluid in your clutch master cylinder is brake fluid too.)
Here is what I have done to the brakes on my C6 Z51:
Rotors - Disk Brakes Australia DBA-4000 single piece slotted rotors in front. The stock rotors are OK in back. (Only about $185 per rotor, and they seem to run a little cooler and last longer than stock.)
Pads - Performance Friction PFC - 01 front and rear. (about $250 for the fronts and about $225 for the rears) They easily handle the high temperatures, and they bite really strong when they are hot. They still stop good at on-the-street temperatures, but they squeal really bad when cold, and they generate a lot of brake dust (the grey powder on your wheels). There are several other good pads options available from Hawk, EBC, Carbotech, etc. All of them have their pros and cons, so shopping around a bit is advisable.
Brake Ducts - the Quantum Motorsports race ducts kit, which includes the DRM ducts, good hoses, and the Quantum spindle ducts. (about $200 as I recall) It only took a couple hours for me to install them myself. There are a few other companies that make brake duct kits, but I like how the Quantum spindle duct ensures the air goes into the rotor and wheel spindle, and how simple it was to install.
Brake Fluid - Motul RBF600. Dry boiling point = 591 *F, wet = almost 400 *F. I also used RBF600 in my clutch master cylinder.
With this setup I sometimes experience just a little brake fade at the end of the day, but I never get enough fade to ruin the day. Although I don't have much "before" data, I think the parts are lasting longer "after" I did these upgrades too.
1. If you will be 'tracking' your car, then you should avoid spending lots of money on the brakes. You will be wearing them out MUCH faster, so they can become a major expense. You're better off with a low to moderate priced upgrade; something that increases reliability while maybe improving performance just a bit.
2. Avoid cross-drilled rotors, as they crack faster and worse than non-drilled rotors. There are only two reasons you would want to buy cross-drilled rotors: 1) they look cool on street cars, and 2) someone else is paying for them (like a major sponsor). Slotted rotors are ok, but also more expensive than plain flat-surface rotors.
3. The C6 Z06 brakes have 6 padlets on each front wheel. The padlets are more expensive, and they tend to taper (wear more on the leading edge than trailing edge) very quickly. So Z06 brakes will cost you more in the long run, because you will have to replace the more expensive padlets more often.
4. You will find that the stopping power of your brakes is not nearly as important as how long they last. We all want brakes that can stop the car "like you threw out an anchor", but if they start fading near the end of your first session and you have no brakes by the end of the third session, then your track day will be ruined. So you need to get a brake package that can survive the demands of racing.
a. Get pads that can take the heat without glazing. Cheap pads will also wear much faster when they get hot, maybe even wearing down to the pad backing in only one track day. I've even heard of cheap pads disintegrating when they got very hot. Then the chunks of pad can cause one wheel to lock up unexpectedly - A VERY BAD THING!
b. Expect your rotors to develop small surface cracks by the end of your first day. These are sometimes called "heat-checking", and they are completely normal in the track-days world. You do not need to replace those rotors until the cracks grow in size where you can easily snag a fingernail in the crack, or until a long crack reaches the edge of the rotor. Both of these indicate that the cracks are nearly bad enough for the rotor to come apart. When a rotor comes apart on track, a crash almost always happens.
c. Soon (not necessary for your first track day, but soon after) you need to install some brake ducts that go all the way to the spindle. The more air you can force through the rotors, the cooler the whole brakes system will be, and the less chance of brake fade ruining your track day.
d. Replace your brake fluid with a good quality fluid that can take the heat without boiling. I prefer Motul RBF600, but there are several similar products. If you can't flush all the old fluid out, then at least replace the fluid in the master cylinder resourvoir (spelling) ASAP, and drive for a few days to mix that fluid into the rest of the system. (Use something like a turkey baster to suck the old fluid out.) Then replace the fluid in the master cylinder again before your first track day session.
(While you're at it, also replace the fluid in the clutch master cylinder a few times until it remains relatively clean when you pump the clutch pedal. Then drive for a few days and replace it again. The fluid in your clutch master cylinder is brake fluid too.)
Here is what I have done to the brakes on my C6 Z51:
Rotors - Disk Brakes Australia DBA-4000 single piece slotted rotors in front. The stock rotors are OK in back. (Only about $185 per rotor, and they seem to run a little cooler and last longer than stock.)
Pads - Performance Friction PFC - 01 front and rear. (about $250 for the fronts and about $225 for the rears) They easily handle the high temperatures, and they bite really strong when they are hot. They still stop good at on-the-street temperatures, but they squeal really bad when cold, and they generate a lot of brake dust (the grey powder on your wheels). There are several other good pads options available from Hawk, EBC, Carbotech, etc. All of them have their pros and cons, so shopping around a bit is advisable.
Brake Ducts - the Quantum Motorsports race ducts kit, which includes the DRM ducts, good hoses, and the Quantum spindle ducts. (about $200 as I recall) It only took a couple hours for me to install them myself. There are a few other companies that make brake duct kits, but I like how the Quantum spindle duct ensures the air goes into the rotor and wheel spindle, and how simple it was to install.
Brake Fluid - Motul RBF600. Dry boiling point = 591 *F, wet = almost 400 *F. I also used RBF600 in my clutch master cylinder.
With this setup I sometimes experience just a little brake fade at the end of the day, but I never get enough fade to ruin the day. Although I don't have much "before" data, I think the parts are lasting longer "after" I did these upgrades too.
Last edited by bobmoore2; 07-05-2010 at 07:42 PM.
07-05-2010, 07:46 PM
#8
Safety Car
Looking back on things, I would still do this, but I would also (a) try a pad other than PFC01s (maybe Carbotech or Cobalt Friction or Wilwood Hs), (b) add DRM Stainless Steel pistons, (c) look at spindle ducts to go with the DRM (or C6Z) brake duct extensions.
07-05-2010, 08:36 PM
#9
Base rotors...get rid of the Z51 rotors. You will need to change the brackets, easy to do.
Get the stock rotors from Napa or Rock Auto. Carbotechs, or the ones that LG sells. PFCs are great but eat the rotors pretty good.
Quantum Brake spindle ducts.
All easy fixes.
Get the stock rotors from Napa or Rock Auto. Carbotechs, or the ones that LG sells. PFCs are great but eat the rotors pretty good.
Quantum Brake spindle ducts.
All easy fixes.
07-06-2010, 10:11 AM
#10
Burning Brakes
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Are the base rotors same size as the Z51's?
07-06-2010, 12:20 PM
#14
Safety Car
Many people feel the drilled rotors are more likely to crack and won't last as long, combined with the higher replacement cost. The interesting thing is wtknght1 uses the Z51 rotors on his C6 T1 car and says they work great... I personally never tested before I "downgraded"...
07-07-2010, 01:49 PM
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Wow, just checked this thread again today. Thanks very much for the responses! I've got a list of parts that I need to order (just picked up a new set of tires about 20 minutes ago), but I'll definitely add the stock C6 rotors and bracket to the list. Same with the spindle ducts. I know there are a lot of options out there for pads, but does anyone have any die-hard preferences or recommendation for a beginner?
07-07-2010, 04:54 PM
#17
Drifting
In the long run it cost more .. a lot more than OEM Z51 rotors. People change them as soon as they see a little crack and they are perfectly fine. Bla, bla, bla
07-07-2010, 05:00 PM
#19
Drifting
Alright, well, I'm officially in the market for some new brakes for my Z51 C6, and I'm a bit torn. The rotors and pads are about shot on my car, so, in my research I found a couple of options:
1.) Buy new aftermarket rotors and pads and go with it from there.
2.) Buy a whole new C6 Z06 brake kit (calipers, rotors, pads, lines) to bolt on to the car.
I've never tracked the car (or any car for that matter), but I've already got my first track date set and I'd like to get out there with the right equipment. I've got a few concerns, however, and I was hoping some of the more experienced can help out this novice. I'd like to upgrade the brakes as the difference in price between the two options is negligible (I'm assuming the performance of the Z06 footwork is noticeably better than the Z51 setup), but I'm worried that I'd be wasting money and getting equipment that I won't be able to really use properly as I'm such a noob to all this. Assuming all goes well on the first shot out, I'd like to really start getting into more track days (always wanted to, now can afford to do so) so I reckon that the brake upgrade might be necessary sometime in the future and I could save some time while I'm replacing the brakes for the first time. I figured I'd better pose this question to folks who know a bit more about this than I do - any advice would be helpful. Thanks!
1.) Buy new aftermarket rotors and pads and go with it from there.
2.) Buy a whole new C6 Z06 brake kit (calipers, rotors, pads, lines) to bolt on to the car.
I've never tracked the car (or any car for that matter), but I've already got my first track date set and I'd like to get out there with the right equipment. I've got a few concerns, however, and I was hoping some of the more experienced can help out this novice. I'd like to upgrade the brakes as the difference in price between the two options is negligible (I'm assuming the performance of the Z06 footwork is noticeably better than the Z51 setup), but I'm worried that I'd be wasting money and getting equipment that I won't be able to really use properly as I'm such a noob to all this. Assuming all goes well on the first shot out, I'd like to really start getting into more track days (always wanted to, now can afford to do so) so I reckon that the brake upgrade might be necessary sometime in the future and I could save some time while I'm replacing the brakes for the first time. I figured I'd better pose this question to folks who know a bit more about this than I do - any advice would be helpful. Thanks!
Post a picture of these trashed rotors please.
Put Z rated PFC pads on it with OEM rotors and in a year you can upgrade to better stuff it you think you REALLY need it to go with you new sticker Hoosiers.
Save the money and use it for seat time. The Z rated pad will very likely continue stop you and the car long after you are tired and ready to go home. You can also use them on the street and probably get 4-5 weekends out of them easily ... maybe more.
07-07-2010, 06:07 PM
#20
Safety Car
You're getting twice as much life out of Z51 rotors as you could the base rotors? Because last I looked the Z51 front rotors were $85ea where I could get base front rotors for $35ea at NAPA. I don't see how that can "cost a lot more."