PCMusicGuy

I was thinking about doing the Spring Mountain school. A coworker did the course and said it was great but I don't know if it is right for me. While I would like to drive around a course well, I'm not so interested in practicing which gear to be in entering turn 3, etc. and I hear they harp a lot on shifting. While I can drive stick, I'm way out of practice (10+ years ago). I'm much more interested in learning where and when to brake, carrying speed through the turns, and clipping the apex perfectly.

Honestly, what I'm looking for is learning all around car control. What I mean is that I want a course that will force me to take the car beyond the limits and then instruct on how to drive on that limit. While I don't believe I'm interested in a drifting school, I can see where I would want that kind of exposure, at least so I will experience exactly where the line is of loosing/keeping control.

I realize that learning these kinds of things doesn't happen overnight and requires a bit of practice, but it's not like there are any legal venues to just go practice this kind of thing in your car by yourself.

Any general feedback is appreciated.

TheKomoman

They don't harp on being in the right gear so much as they do practice the hell out of heel-toe downshifting. And that is an INTEGRAL part of car control while driving a manual transmission. If you don't heel-toe then you can't downshift until after you're through the corner and well beyond the apex, which means you'll be slow off the corner. I took the 3 day and thought it was great. Heel-toe is quite hard at first but they have you practice it every day and it becomes very natural.

JDIllon

Spring Mountain is a great school to do just what you are looking for. They are not a racing school, there is a big difference. I took there 3 day course several years ago and it is what go me hooked on doing HPDEs. They have a skid pad and will put you through many different things that help with car control. I highly recommend Spring Mountain. It is a first class operation and you will have a great time and learn alot. JD

ScaryFast

There are a million smaller venues, clubs, schools, and organizations that allow you to get on track and learn the things you are looking for.

If you have a car you can use already (like a 'vette, of course), then you can try this very inexpensivley (~$350 for a weekend) at a local track. Try NASA, they have a large group in Texas. Depending on your experience level, you can start with HPDE (high performance driver education) which provides classroom instruction and then on-track experience with a certified instructor in the car with you at all times.

As you get more experience, you can move into higher levels, eventually without an instructor in the car, and if you're so inclined, you can time trial or go racing.

Try this:

http://www.nasatxracing.com/

Their website makes it look like there's only racing, but you can start as a beginner.

The national site is:

www.nasaproracing.com

63Corvette

First, I think that ANY driver's school (Bondurant, Spring Mountain, etc) is better than nothing!
If your aim is to drive lotsa neat cars (Z06, ZR1) then take one of these. However, If your aim is to learn to DRIVE in competition, then my personal advice is to go with a personal (professional) coach, who will work with you one-on-one to develop your skills and mitigate your weaknesses. This method is lots cheaper than the car type schools.

PCMusicGuy

Thanks for the feedback. My coworker did mention they spent nearly half a day on heel-toe driving. I don't know if that's something that really interests me. My experience with manual transmissions is limited to full size pickups so I've never driven anything sporty with a stick. The idea of learning proper shifting and heel-toe is tempting but I fear if I take something like the Spring Mountain class I'll be so focused on learning to shift again that I will suffer on all other aspects of driving.

I am aware they have A6's available (what I own and drive everyday) but at the same time I feel that maybe I should try the class with the stick while I'm young. I just don't feel I'll be able to retain it with a 3 day course and I don't see much true manual transmissions in my future since anything I drive I will want my girl to be able to drive. Sorry for being long-winded (in advance), I'm just trying to make an informed and appropriate decision here and provide all the related things going on in my head.

ScaryFast,
thanks for the recommendations, but I am aware of those and they don't fit what I envision. From what I've seen of HPDEs, AutoX, NASA, etc. you can't practice by yourself on your own time, at least not by my definition. Everything is part of an event or track day or something. The practice sessions that they have are more about finding lines and achieving better times.

I am more interested in learning car control on my own time. That means I want to be able to freely take my car to the limit (and even over) repeatedly in varying conditions. I want to practice on a dry surface, wet surface, both asphalt and concrete. I want to learn skills that I can realistically use in everyday driving more than just on a track. If I lose control in normal street driving, however slight, rain or shine, whether it is in my vette or in a pinto, I want to have practiced what to do. Practicing with that kind of freedom is not something any venue offers (as far as I'm aware.)

Dan Wendling

So where do I find a coach and at how do I get track time with them in my car?

I have done Bondurant Z06 and a NASA HPDE event and both were great but very different. Interested in the "coach" alternative.

63Corvette

jason@jasonhartracing.com

http://www.jasonhartracing.com/

AU N EGL

Do you want a Driving school / High Performance Driving school or Racing school?

Yes we can set up up with a personal coach, if that is what you would like.

Do not think you will learn it 'all" in one weekend on the track. or even two or three weekends.

NASA and other clubs have a progression ladder of which is mostly based on the number of prior weekends on the track you had in the past three years.

Do 5-6 NASA events this year alone. Dan I believe you have registered for the NCM HPDE at VIR, which you will learn a great amount there as well.

Once you have 10 -15 weekends or two day events under your seat and tires, then yes a racing school.

if your on the east coast may I recommenced Henry Gilbert's racing school. http://www.sportscardrivingexperience.com/

socalspringmountain

PCMusicGuy,

Our teaching technique is progressive. We cover all the basics and allow you to practice, on-track at whatever pace works for you.

We do spend a bit of time on heel-toe because it is one of the foundations of performance driving. That said, we have had students who didn't really want to mess with it and chose to just use 3rd gear. We can find the right mix for to meet you requirements. We do encourage you to use all the techniques. I think you will be suprised by how proficient you get by the third day.

You will also get lots of time to work on your brake points, line through the corners, keeping your momentum high and visual scanning. We also have students do wet and dry exercises that allow you to put the car on the limit or over in a safe environment.

I know you won't be disappointed.

Feel free to PM or email me if you have any other questions.

Thanks,

Ken

ScaryFast

Your only real option for getting personal track time on different surfaces is to rent a track or vehicle testing facility by yourself. You're talking about several thousand dollars for a day. There are some schools which do wet and dry simulations, and some schools have special "skid cars" set up to simulate these conditions. I know of some up here in the north but not in Texas - I'm sure they're out there, though. But in any of these schools you're going to have limited time in the car compared to what you're looking for.

There just isn't a realistic option for safely going out and testing your car without sharing the surface with others. In my professional life I rent test facilities which have different friction surfaces and conditions, and we pay as much as $10,000 a day for this type of thing. It takes a LOT of open land and some expensive equipment to maintain these types of places (race tracks or vehicle dynamics test facilities) and the facility owners need to recoup their costs somehow. In other words, renting them by yourself if not a realistic option.

davidfarmer

you need to contact the schools your are considering and explain this to them. I'm only worked for one arrive-and-drive school, but whether there or DE, I ask the customer exactly what THEIR goals are, and that's what we work on. I've been to pretty much every extreme, but you should definitely work this out with the school in advance.

racerbob4

David Farmer is right about concentrating on what aspect YOU want to sharpen your skills. Since you probably do a lot of track events at Summit Point you might want to see if my son Rob Hines will be at any of them, request him if they are assigned or call him to make arrangements for him to take you on as a student. He has a year of racing corvettes and 14 years of racing experience including a year with World Challenge back in 2001 when it was fun and had a lot of cars in the series. He has also taught at Ferrari and Friday at the track days. Presently you will see him in a Nissan 350Z. He also won his national championship in a T2 Camaro.

sgsvette

There is no substitute for instant feedback. If you don't have an instructor sitting next to you every lap you take to correct and encourage you in the proper driving technique then you are just driving around wasting fuel. Go to http://www.corvetteschool.net and you won't regret it. Car control is what we focus on.

mikefili

I agree with the concept of learning instead of just driving around the track doing the same wrong thing over and over. The best thing I ever did is spend a few days with an instructor in the right seat learning the correct way to control the car. It is amazing that almost all we have learned to drive on the street, since the first day we got our learners permit does not apply on the race track. I went to Henry Gilbert's Corvetteschool.net, Fla is not too far from Texas.

jasonhartracing.com

Hello pcmusicguy,

My name is Jason Hart. If you are interested in getting on track in TX (or any other state) I would be happy to help you out. I have relationships with all the area tracks and can provide one-on-one coaching to help you learn the techniques and gain the experience you are looking for. I was an instructor at the Bondurant School from 1995-1999 and have since made my living as a driver and coach. I have raced and coached in Corvettes since this time and am currently coaching Ron Farmer in his #474 ST2 Corvette in NASA where we have set the track record and won all the races at both of the events held this year... God willing we will likely do the same this weekend at TWS. If you would like to contact me my phone number is 972-898-3952 and you can look up my background at www.jasonhartracing.com. You may find some of my endorsements interesting as well. Thanks for the endorsement Garrett, I really appreciate it. I love that 63' of yours and look forward to getting to drive it again some time.

Cheers all, J

67Ranger

Nothing against spring mountain, but there are lots of good school around TX that are closer and cheaper. Ive done stuff with the drivers edge, and it was great. I had an instructor next to me in the car, got great feedback, and became a much better driver. You should also check out motorsport ranch houston and see what they have going on.

AU N EGL

Get to know a NASA instructor in the Mid Atlantic region. Ask them to help you out.

These guys go to many many events, not just NASA. Request to have a certain instructor at the different events. If possible the Event Master / Chief Instructor will accommodate you.

Intimidate feed back is essential. ie the coach must be in the right seat for you to progress quickly.

again one weekend is never enough. It will take 10 -20 events or more to learn. There is nothing like seat time and more seat time.

Good Luck

mashinter

In terms of car control, I liked the Bondurant skid cars. They adjust the car for understeer to oversteer and you get to practice how to stabilize the car with the throttle.

In terms of threshhold braking and proper turn-in, I liked the Skip Barber school because we were running on a major track (Road America) and the instructors had us brake deeper and deeper into turn 8 until we spun. I can still run turn 8 in my head right at the limit.

Wayne O

IMHO I think your preconceptions and reluctance to receive a well-rounded learning experience are going to be a major roadblock to you actually learning how to drive at speed. There are sound reasons why certain 'fundamentals' are taught and even if you don't anticipate driving a manual shift it would benefit you to learn. Go with the program...it's been developed for a reason. You're right in that you can only get so much out of a 3-day course. Professional instruction can be invaluable but you'll then need constant and regular repetition to apply and refine what you learned...practice, practice, practice!

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss organizations such as NASA. Besides affording you the track time necessary to apply what you've learned NASA has many excellent instructors available to help novice drivers. I think it helps immensely to receive instruction from a variety of instructors. Each one brings something a little different to the table which benefits you. NASA is about more than finding lines and achieving better times. Certainly these are part of learning to drive at speed but in their lower HPDE levels what you choose to concentrate on is more or less up to you at least within the confines of NASA rules.

While I wouldn't be so quick to rule-out a driving school like Spring Mountain or organizations such as NASA, perhaps you should rent a track and hire a one-on-one professional instructor for a completely private driving experience.


Repeating the wrong thing over and over is counter productive and potentially dangerous.