0RAAMaudio

C6 Real Vert Roll Bar, double hoop, HPDE, TT legal, interested?
I have been working on a design as I can find the time but just not able to do much with torn knees. I had a great fabricator come out today to look at what I have done and we are going to go over every single rule we can, one more time for me, to ensure this can be a legal roll bar so us with convertibles can go to the track.

And, those that do not want to go to the track have a very good looking, real roll bar for the added safety it will provide, all the time.

The design is tough enough to do right, getting it legal even tougher as the rules allow factory roll bars that are let on the track are not that great, this will be better than them and the stock Vette coupe factory bars, by a large margin!

I brought this up before but need your support to get this going, it is a big investment in these trouble times but I know many of you who love having a convertible would love to have more fun with it and safely do so.

Show me your support, please, this is not about the money, it is about doing something nobody does and some of us would love to have it.

Sincerely
Rick

0RAAMaudio

Note:

We can pretty easily do a single bar but it sure does not look that great driving around town with it compared to a sweet double hoop design

For those that wanted it, we can do a SS bar as well, it would be a fine bar but even harder to get allowed on the track no matter how good it was designed.

I cannot afford to do an official roll over test unless somebody wants to donate a dead C6 ready for the scrap pile.

Thanks
Rick

Charley Hoyt

Best of luck to you. In my opinion it is going to be a big challenge meeting all of the rules. I tried this and came up with a good compromise that meets my needs...but, it probrobly wont pass for every event. I just wanted to make it as safe as possible.

Here are some shots of mine.

NTMD8R

Rick,
I too am sure interested in a Rollbar for my '07 Convert.

I have PM'd you about your earlier post.
I have also spoken with Charley regarding his set up.

So, what kind of support are you looking for?

Cheers,
Gary

0RAAMaudio

Thanks, I have seen yours, the rules are for good reason but when the let stock roll hoops in that are not going to be anywhere as strong as what we want to do, even the Vette bar is nothing compared to this and a FG roof does not do a great deal for your protection, well, maybe we can convince those in charge of such things to see the logic in this.

A well designed, strong roll hoop setup that looks good enough to be seen on the streets, complements the car, adds real safety on and off the track so people will want to have one, more cars at events, etc........it all adds up very positively when looked at that way.

It would have harness bars across both hoops and one between them as high as possible, etc...

Another option is one just below the tops of the hoops so you get the looks of the hoops and then address the issue concerning supporting the car on soft surfaces, etc...would not look as good, has to be high enough to not block the mirror, etc..

There are plenty of race cars with single hoops, no real protection for the drivers head from a car, guard rail hit at the wrong angle, etc....on the track all the time, we still get a windshield and strong frame around it with the design I am working on, pretty good protection overall.

I am reviewing again, all the rules I have read many times on this

Thanks
Rick

0RAAMaudio

Mainly we need support in enough truly interested members willing to order one.

And, we need support from those with real knowledge, maybe know the right people, etc to help get this approved for HPDE as a bare minimum and TT even better yet.

I want so very much to do this but it has to be viable to do so, if not my time is better spent on my business or my own car projects, I have spent far to much time in my life creating things with to much passion. Now I need to spend it more wisely, getting up there in years and working so hard on stuff is showing in injuries, worn out body parts, etc......

I want to have some health left when I finally retire!

Thanks
Rick

Charley Hoyt

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I learned a lot by doing this one...and there were more then a couple of surprises. For example, my early designs tied into the vertical structure that holds the seat belt...then when I got everything appart I found out that the structure was aluminum...not steel. I have a lot of pictures of the mounting areas that may be helpful. Two of the major challenges I had were to make the roll bar high enough to actually provide protection....and, to have the roll bar far enough away from my head so that this could be safely used on the street without a helmet. And of course all of this needs to be accomplished in a way that allows the top to be useable. It is definately a challenge making a roll bar that is safe enough for the track that can also be used for daily driving.

Charley

0RAAMaudio

Thanks very much, I think I am covered pretty well on what to look for since I have a steel chassis and a C5 stripped chassis next to it to compare notes with, pictures would still be nice to have though

Is your car a Z06 converted to a drop top or a body changed Vert? I though the uprights on the regular car are steel as we looked at tying into it(no holes drilled, etc yet though)

Since the factory hoop is only supported by those I am sure it is quite strong, going to the floor is standard practice but a bolt on bar, well, nothing there to bolt to but the sides of the frame. Since we cannot go through the sides of the frame I am looking at more than likely needing to weld a plate under the car from the frame into where the bar would come down to. We may not have an option but to do some welding and that is the easiest place by far and if the bar was removed later on, not a big deal.

As for height, I can easily get the 2" required above my helmet with stock seats and the top fully intact and working. I am just 5'8" but shorter legs than torso, I sit pretty tall for my height. With a relatively quick seat swap(I have some Racetech 1000 that are more than comfortable enough to drive to the track in), I can gain 2-3 more inches so relatively tall guys could use this safely and within the rules. Real tall guys, sorry, not much I can do for you

I do understand what you went through to get this done, I did not consider this at all when buying the car, just figured it was a given I could buy a decent bar, surprise!!!!!!!
I would of bought a Z06 if I had known, my bad eh! Sure love the Vert and keeping it amd my wife loves it, part of the family now

This is a tough project but that is part of the fun of doing it or at least trying, easy stuff is just not rewarding enough.

Thanks again,
Rick

NTMD8R

For my C5 Convert Rollbar, we actually welded flanges to the horizontal
wall which starts the rear compartment, just behind the seats.
The rollbar verticals had flanges on the bottom, and bolted to these welded flanges.

And we mounted braces to the FRAME under the car, then bolted the rear supports through the floor to these braces.

So it was all "bolt-in", making it easily removable.
The bolts were grade 8 stainless steel.

Here are some pictures of that C5 rollbar.

Left Flange Mount with vertical tacked to mounting flange, and bolted.


Right Flange Mount with Vertical, etc.



Right Brace welded to Frame.



Right rear brace dryfit.



Installed and complete.


I know that the C6 is really different to the C5, but I just thought I'd show something that maybe could be looked into.

0RAAMaudio

Thanks, nice quality work there. The rear bars seem to be quite well anchored to the frame, good! I am sending a PM, please read it

Rick

AU N EGL

Rick

Do you have the SCCA ( especially SOLO I) and NASA tech rules on roll bars ?

Many clubs use those rules to look at roll bars.

0RAAMaudio

Thanks, I am a member of both and have read the rules many times but going to take a look at any changes to them. I have last years printed out and highlighted, etc......

There is a double hoop design for another car that has been allowed on many tracks, etc..I tried to get them to build bars for me once I got the design worked out but they wanted to just make me three and then own the design, not likely with the amount of effort involved. They have a patent on an area that I think is way to general to have one on but oh well, I can work around that issue easily enough, we could of had these last year if they would of worked with me and I would of paid them well and done all the marketing, etc......I wonder what they would say if I asked them again in this economy

-----------------

Thanks
Rick

Charley Hoyt

My car is a steel framed Z-51 with with Z06 body panels added. You should be aware that the convertible and coupe frames are different in the area where the seat belt retractor is mounted....I didn't know this when I started. The coupe has a steel hoop that mounts to the frame near the seat belt retractors and supports the roof. That shorter part on the verts that hold the seat belt retractor is made of aluminum....so you have to really think about how and if you want to attach to it.

Here is a picture with the carpet removed. you can see the aluminum piece that holds the seat belt retractor. (this was just a test bar...the final product didn't have that many bends)


You should know that the horizontal support area isn't as robust as you might think. Also the fuel tank and vent lines are just below the surface and easily drilled into....and very expensive to repair.....you can ask the shop that did my installation. They had to pay over $2k to replace one of my tanks. The section that the retractor bracket mounts to is connected to the frame....so it is quite strong...but, like I said it is made of aluminum.

Regarding tieing into the floor...this is tricky also. The floor is just balsa with sheeting over it. I chose to turn the bar into the frame area. We welded a plate to the frame and then bolted the bar to the plate. Another good method might be to build a support coming off of the frame and have the roll bar mount vertically to it....this would save you one bend per side.




Let me know if you want any other shots.

Charley

0RAAMaudio

Thanks, I have been looking at welding a plate to the bottom of the frame to go straight down and bolt through the floor, maybe cut the wood out completely there.

I did not think the side upright was aluminum, I was thinking of some rivenuts there to a plate on the bar to give it more support, will look into it!

GM sure did not do us any favors designing this car!

Rick

Charley Hoyt

I thought about attaching to the frame that way also….The reason I changed my mind was because I couldn’t come up with a good way to adequately distribute the loads into the frame. Downward force on the roll bar would tend to but the bracket in tension and pull it from the frame. The ideal method for attaching to the frame would be in compression on top of the frame. Since that wasn’t feasible I decided to use shear loading on the side of the frame to distribute the forces. I also attached the bar near the horizontal shelf but I used a saddle to distribute the loads using compression.



Where do you plan to have the highest part of the bar? I was surprised how far forward the bar would have to be mounted in order to allow the top to function. On one of my early concepts I located a mock up roll bar in the highest and furthest back location that was possible with the top up….everything looked good, until I tried to operate the top. The top requires the bar to be about eight inches or more forward of the place I had it. I felt that location was not acceptable because it would be too close to my head for street driving without a helmet. It is surprising how far the seat can flex backward in a rear impact…so the bar needs to be quite far back….If it isn’t far enough back…a minor rear end impact could be fatal.

It is amazing how many variables have to be considered when designing a roll bar.

Don’t give up though…it is a fun process to go through.

Charley Hoyt

No offense intended but I don’t think that this is a safe design. I could be wrong….but, the bar appears to be too close to where your head would be during street driving. If this is correct the occupants could be badly hurt in even a minor fender bender (think about a baseball bat to the head). Also, your rear mounts look very strong but your front mounts don’t appear to be attached to a very strong structure. In a roll over it looks like the structure supporting your front mounds would yield or fail causing the bar to rotate around the rear mounts directly into the heads of the occupants.

I am certainly not the expert here… I am just contributing my thoughts to help the next roll bar designs to be better and better.

NTMD8R

Charley,
Thanks for the comments.

Actually, while driving, the bar passes the "broomstick" test... barely.

And I also thought that the horizontal fence which the posts are fastened to would not be very strong, but I was advised by my fabricator that there was a bar running inside that bar, which was strong.

In any event, I have sold the car, and the new owner loves it, but does no racing or autocross at all. So he is not concerned about the bar.