ForceFedC5

I like to have fun.

When I see a straightaway, I'll nail it (maybe even before the straightaway )

When I see a bunch of turns come up, I'll accelerate hard towards the turn and brake hard just before.

Some, but not all of my previous instructors would get ticked at me for "not following the line, missing some apex's, and not driving smoothly"

Now, I do like to learn that stuff, I do not accerate like a maniac all the way to areas that have concrete walls (grass is my friend), but I got the feeling from more than a few instructors that I should pay more attention to following lines, driving smooth, etc...

and my favorite "It's not a drag race"

I just want to make clear that I do NOT in a dangerous fashion for fellow racers. I always wave cars by (when their faster) and do try to follow the lines somewhat

Some instructors were even somewhat insulting and got angry. (although one was having a really, really good time! )

I realize that most instructors race alot and pursuing perfection and/or improvement is paramount to them, but for me I just like to open up my car in a controlled and legal atmosphere, have fun and learn some stuff. I have no plans to go often (can't really afford the maintenance) and I know it's very hard on the car.

I realize a smooth, fluid driver will get a better lap time, but it's just not as fun to me.

I did get "passed" so I didn't have to run with an instructor, more than once so I know I'm not dangerous.

FYI, at the time my car was making 460rwhp/460rwtq with RA1's, Hawk race pads, and synthetic brake fluid

Anyone else ever feel like I feel or have the same experience with other instructors and just in general at HPDE's?

AlwaysInBoost

Nope, can't say I feel the same way.

For me, improving on my driving is the fun part. the difference between my first and last session is what keeps me coming back everytime. Unless you're a natural, there is only so much you can teach yourself. Eventually you're going to be teaching yourself the WRONG way to do something and its very hard to unlearn bad habbits.

I always try to take an instructor when I go out. they aren't always available but my seat is always open. It the same price with or without instruction so why not get the most out of your money.

It is not a race, its an HPDE. you don't HAVE to go fast, but its sooooo much more fun when you can and you will only be able to go so fast off-line. There is a saying, the proper line is a prerequisit to speed. Meaning if you want to go fast you first need to find the line. Taking a turn at the wrong speed off-line will land you in the grass if you're lucky and if you're not lucky it could be much worse.

FredSM

Depends on the group you're with. Some groups are grooming racers. The group I coach for emphasizes 1) safety, 2) fun, 3) everything else. Anyone who wants to be taught how to get around a track fast gets that coaching. But I've had students who only wanted to drift all the way around a road course. OK, if that's what you want to do and you can do it safely (most can't), including not impeding the safety or fun of other drivers, drift away. That's not fast, but it is fun. I have many friends who measure their fun and success by their lap times. Cool! I honestly have the most fun weaving through traffic, at elevated speed, of course, but sometimes WAY off a fast line. But I also enjoy teaching and seeing the lightbulb go off in others when they nail a corner. My advice . . . you're paying to be there, so have fun your way . . . safely, courteously, and within track and group rules. But be cognizant that others payed to be there too and be prepared to get outta' their way when they're working on their hot lap. And as the man said above, don't be hesitant to ride with a coach occasionally, no matter how good you think you are. It is a rare day that I don't learn something from someone.

FM

L98Terror

Everyone has a different idea of what fun is, getting passed in your Vette by a Maxima wouldn't be fun to me, going of track and hurting yourself or your car wouldn't be fun to me, having the track closed down because someone was a cowboy and stuffed it into a wall again not fun, having your club banned from using a track not fun.

There are different HPDE for different things go to an event like 3 *****...have fun go to a NASA HPDE expect to improve your driving skills, go faster in a safe manner. The biggest advise I have for you is to let your instructor know what you expect they are there to help make sure you have a good time but their safety is in your hands so I can understand them getting upset if you don't listen to their advise.

If a student said to me I don't want to learn all I want to do is go fast, I'd respond lets rock and roll and just advise him on things that may put us or others at risk. Then I would recommend that he not come back. The track is serious business, bad things can happen.

wmk32

If your instructors are getting angry and even insulting don't you think there might be a reason for that? Wouldn't it make some sense to take the advice of someone who has already done thousands of laps?

If you can't drive somewhat smoothly it's just a matter of time before you end up in a wall or some other predicament. Hopefully nobody else gets hurt in the process.

VetteDrmr

MFC,

Interesting topic. I think, as long as you follow FredSM's advice you should be OK. No flaming here, but consider...

You imply you really don't have a competitive urge in DEs (llet's all be honest now, when there's someone in front of you don't you get the urge to catch them and pass them? That's competitive), then you tell us (again, being honest, bragging on your baby) about your hp/tq, tires, brake stuff. That sounds like a bit of that competitive critter lives inside you as well.

If that's the case, then you will come to the point where you want to do *better* at DEs than in the past. When that happens you'll want to be learning the line, braking techniques, etc. So, you might consider if you want to start learning that stuff at your next DE so you have less bad habits to unlearn.

HTH, and have a good one,
Mike

jaa1992

Lets see how to follow terror's post.

I also instruct and try to mold my style to what the student wants to learn and how they learn. Everyone of my students has wanted to learn how to get around the track following the school line. Seeing the light bulb go off when they realize their car can go faster through that turn, or then can brake at the 1 marker instead of before the 6 gives me great satisfaction. They have fun, want to come back and I have a blast doing it.

Please, please, please tell your instructor what you want to get out of your time on the track. Please be aware that if you are in any way unsafe or holding traffic up you may be asked not to come back. As stated above we really do not like it when a student has an accident on the track. It messes with groups abilities to have these events.

Remember 90% of what you learn on the track is applicable everyday on the road.
I know I've missed having other people run into me because I keep my eyes up all the time. Shoot had one try to run into me the other day as I was comming around a semi-blind turn. Say them and was able to stop long before I got to the intersection.

VetteDrmr

No. There is NEVER a valid reason for an instructor to not control their responses. A lot of students are intimidated by their instructors just walking up to them. My instructors have always been enthusiastic, positive, and enjoyable. Having instructed in autocross for several years I can tell you that students have different attitudes, and some I haven't agreed with. That doesn't give me the right to be rude.

If a student is dangerous then the instructor should get them off the track. The OP hasn't had that problem; he's just not drinking the Koolaid "yet" (it's just a matter of time, though!).

Have a good one,
Mike

ScaryFast

There is ONE thing that keeps people safe on track, whether it's an HPDE or a professional wheel to wheel race:

PREDICTABILITY

The other people on the track need to know what you're going to do. Granted, beginners don't know how to be predictable yet, that's what they're trying to learn. But it sounds like you have plenty of experience.

If you're braking when I'm expecting you to accelerate, turning somewhere where I am not expecting you to go, etc, we're going to have contact. And if you think grass is your friend, you're seriously mistaken. Grass is like ice if you're carrying any speed. If you're in the grass at high speed, then you have little control over where your vehicle is going and if there's anything solid in your path you just might meet it up close and personal.

And just as importatnly, while sometimes necessary, driving off line is NOT as fast. It's simple physics. Even in a beginner group, if you're only "following the lines somewhat" other cars that are on line are going to quickly catch up to you in the corners. This means two things:

1. You're probably holding them up, which means they aren't having fun

2. You're creating a dangerous situation for someone who may or may not have the skills and experience to handle it

No, of course you don't have to be there to learn how to race. Some instructors are racers, some are not. But you need to drive in such a manner that does not endanger others on the track - other drivers, and your instructor. Have you considered it from their perspective? They're donating their time to help you, and you're intentionally putting them in a potentionally dangerous sitation. That seems pretty damn unfair to me.

I had a serious accident because of this scenario. I approached a slower car in a high speed section of that track. The other driver even had good intentions - he saw me coming and tried to move out of my way. He in fact drove right into my line - unpredictability. At speed you can't just swerve or brake, the car was at the limits. In order to not hit him I had to lift, which caused an ugly situation. This sounds like you - you're trying to drive fast where you want to, but the guy behind you that you are trying to "let pass" may disagree that you're "not dangerous".

Listen kids, this ain't no joke. You don't have to be hardcore and working to remove tenths of seconds from your lap times. But you can not cause dangerous situations for other people. If you can't have fun without a bit more compliance to the expected behavior then perhaps this isn't for you. It's my life you're talking about, forgive me if I take that a bit seriously.

And quite frankly, if you listened to what your instructor was trying to teach you, you'll probaly find that you're going a helluva lot faster at almost every point around the track. That's a LOT more fun than accelerating hard into a corner and slamming on the brakes. Come to one of my events. I bet I could show you what a blast this is while teaching you how to be an even safer driver, both on and off track.

.

rad_vet

My take is if you are not on the correct line for your car, then you are not going as fast as you can. Going as fast as you can around the track seems to be the objective of most people who attend HPDEs. If your instructors are telling you to be smoother, then they probably think you are at risk of upsetting your car. If you upset your car, you could lose control. You do not want to go off track, especially if you do not know what is out there. BTW, if the grass is wet, it is not your friend.

cgh1

Hopefully without repeating too much of what is here, I'd recommend you attend track days, not HPDEs - like VIR member days, etc. These are events that are governed by controlled run groups with optional-to-no instructors and no classroom (generally speaking.) If you are just looking to drive around and as you call it 'have fun,' these are the events for you. If you are frustrating your instructors by not listening or listening and refusing to implement their input, then whether you feel such or not, you are a detriment to the mission of the HPDE event.

When I encounter this type of activity while in the right seat, I don't get angry, I just put speed limits on sessions and/or park people who intentionally don't listen or do things that put themselves, me, and/or others in harm's way. If you're at the track and parked/grounded for the day, there's little to no fun in that; especially if you paid to be there.

I am certainly not saying this is your intent but anyone who drag races down the straights, resulting in eliminated point-by's (byproduct of flooring it or not) only to be caught in the turns by those who were behind them on that last straight; drive without regard of the 'school line', eliminating predictability; and those who drive hard (as opposed to smart) into every turn and on every area of the track, can be rightfully perceived as a nuisance, hazard, and even a danger to themselves, others, and the entire event. Generally, this indicates a lack of understanding of the art, science, and forces at work - and the potential hazards of misapplication of those forces.

I can't imagine why anyone would actively want to be a source of anxiety and frustration for others - and again, I am not directing that at you specifically - just this topic provides an opportunity to bring it up.

HPDEs are learning/teaching environments (E="Education") with the expectation that those who sign up are there to learn and teach. They ARE all about having fun, because when you are having fun, you are more apt to learn and retain delivered information and experience. Priority, though is always SAFETY, then Learning and Fun; in that order with learning and fun being a virtual tie. We WANT you to have fun - that IS the point! But everyone's fun must mesh so that no one individual's fun hampers any others.

Track Events & Test n Tunes are geared to those who are simply there to achieve very personal results based on a very personal agenda with a very personal responsibility for their actions.

Something I would like you to specifically consider, MyFirstCorvette: In every endeavor humans pursue, there are mistakes. The bigger the activity, the bigger the results of any mistakes. High speed driving lends itself to high impact mistakes. Are you prepared to accept the results/impact of progressively higher speed mistakes made by not intentionally learning the optimal way to participate in such an endeavor? Are you prepared to be responsible for the outcomes such an approach creates?

davidfarmer

if you are getting the SAME advice repeatedly, then you probably are doing something potentially dangerous. I've had a few students that had strange goals (blasting around Lowes Oval, but not caring less about the infield, etc), and I'm willing to let them have their way as long as they aren't doing anything unsafe.

If it was a single instructor, I'd so you just have fun. BUT if you are getting consistent advice to change your ways, it's likely for good reason.

AU N EGL

as everyone said above, there is a reason to listen to your instructors.

You just had some suggestions by several OF THE BEST INSTRUCTORS AND RACE DRIVERS IN THE COUNTRY GIVE YOU ADVICE.

Students who dont listen to instructors, or drive above their skill level have what we call the RED MIST. That is a reason you will have a site down talk with the Chief Instructor / Event Master, Grid Control and Your Instructor(s). If you miss track time, too bad. you will set there until you UNDERSTAND the rules of Safety and proper driving.

Some tracks will even BLACK flag students who drive like crap, and are dangerous.

So I will be more direct. Drive the Party line for safety, listen to your instructors or GET OUT AND DON'T COME BACK.


Maybe Drifting is more to your liking.

davidfarmer

actually, it sounds like the Opposite is true. He likes to blast down the straightaways then jam on the brakes before the corners.

longdaddy

Please look at this from the point of vew of an instructor:

you get into the car that is lacking safety gear and has obviously been modified to make more power. the driver proceeds to drive in an unexpected and unpredictable way and is not making corrections. the driver may not be doing things that are obviously reckless, but he is demonstrating a lack of skill to deal with an emergency if one arises - and more importantly - a lack of desire to work on such skills.

anyone would get frustrated, angry and concerned for the safety of people in attendance, not to mention their own. after talking to many instructors over the years and hearing numerous stories about students putting them in danger by not listening/cooperating or bringing cars that were not track-ready, i have the highest respect and admiration for the ***** it takes to provide instruction on the racetrack to people you see for the first time.

HPDE is a cooperative effort and drivers have responsibilty not only for their own safety but for the safety and smooth operation of the whole group. if you are not sure what such responsibility means, ask an instructor AND TRUST HIS ANSWER!

there's nothing wrong with having fun and not trying to be competetive, by the way.

Jason Staley

You might consider listening to your instructors and driving more smoothly. I find it more fun to be smooth, fast, and to be passing others than to be past by other cars in the sake of trying to have fun. Once you start to improve, it becomes fun .

There is nothing better for me than to be chasing down what should be a faster car. It really makes you try hard and sharpen your skills. I've dropped in 2 yrs from 1:45 to 1:30 at my local track Putnam Park. I've even managed to keep up with a few C5's and C6's in my old C3 (I'm in novice class so we make mistakes at this stage ). I'm enjoying both the challenge of building a better car while honing my driving. Once I get heal toe shifting down, I will move up to the next class.

I will say that the instructors REALLY do appreciate it when you take their advice. Plus they get some satisfaction out of seeing their students improve and become better drivers. I think they have a lot of guts getting in a car with a complete stranger knowing they will be going 100+ mph and pushing the car to the drivers limits (and sometimes beyond). One instructor gave me such good advice I dropped 5 seconds per lap in one day.

worldsaway

My first event was with PCA at roebling road in a'78 911. One passing zone, and due to gearing almost every car out there walked off from me on the straight, but I was on them by turn 3. Yeah it would have been more fun if I could have had the opportunity to be ahead of them, but seems like everybody wants to flatfoot it when they can.

Greywolfe

Going fast in a straight line is ok but going fast through corners and hitting your marks just right feels awesome.

I've done about 4 HPDE (and have alot to learn/improve) events with NASA SE (RA and CMP) and I love it. Eventually I want to instruct, TT and W2W. I give the instructors alot of credit. They are basically getting in a car with someone they don't know and trusting they will follow thier direction.

Lets see a high HP car with a novice that doesn't listen.... instructors worst nightmare if you ask me.

Stevo92z28

Some great points in this thread.

Put yourself in the instructor's shoes...then maybe you will see why they having such a hard time with the way you drive.

naschmitz

I would suggest the OP talks with his instructors BEFORE going on track to set some session objectives and boundary conditions where everyone is comfortable and having fun while being safe.

If the instructor and student are not communicating because they each have different assumptions/expectations/goals, it can't be good for either of them or anyone else on the track.

As a novice tracking my car after a few years of high speed airport autocrossing, I've done some things that have made instructors anxious because they have no way to know what my experience level is. Likewise, I've had instructors ask me to do things I was not comfortable with yet. If you can build trust both ways with your instructor, you can have a lot of fun.