Corner weighting: What does it do?
11-24-2008, 11:14 PM
#1
Corner weighting: What does it do?
I am getting an alignment on my C6 in a few weeks. The place I'm going to also offers corner weighting/balancing. As I understand it, this is basically putting the car on a scale and adjusting the lowering bolts so that the weight of the car is equally distributed to each corner? What are the advantages of doing this? I have never gone autocrossing or to an HPDE but plan on doing so in the future.
The place charges $250 for alignment + corner weighting ($120 for alignment only).
The place charges $250 for alignment + corner weighting ($120 for alignment only).
11-25-2008, 01:00 AM
#3
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but...IMHO Save your money for now. With no experience in autocross or high speed track driving it will take a couple of years before you're able to feel or see the benefits of corner weighting your car. Eventually you'll want to have this done but if you're just starting I would spend the extra money on quality safety equipment. Unfortunately that is something most people put on the bottom of their list.
11-25-2008, 02:23 AM
#4
Racer
I would definitely save your money for now. Who knows if your going to keep the same ride height settings once you start racing anyway (which would mess up the corner weighting). And IMHO corner weighting is a pretty small performance gain.
11-25-2008, 06:18 AM
#5
Safety Car
I'm going to disagree with you guys on this one. I think corner balancing is money well spent - if you do driving events. If you've ever driven a car that is balanced you'll want to do it all the time.
If you have coil overs it's really easy to do. On a stock car it's difficult to do but you can get close.
I have an article on my web site that explains the whole thing. It was done in 1992 and uses a Porsche for an example but the basic principles apply to any car.
It's really not necessary for a street car, and might not be necessary during your first year of running HPDEs. As you gain experience you'll want to balance the car out. It makes a much bigger difference than any aftermarket part you can buy.
Richard Newton
Autocross Performance Handbook
If you have coil overs it's really easy to do. On a stock car it's difficult to do but you can get close.
I have an article on my web site that explains the whole thing. It was done in 1992 and uses a Porsche for an example but the basic principles apply to any car.
It's really not necessary for a street car, and might not be necessary during your first year of running HPDEs. As you gain experience you'll want to balance the car out. It makes a much bigger difference than any aftermarket part you can buy.
Richard Newton
Autocross Performance Handbook
11-25-2008, 09:24 AM
#6
Drifting
I'm going to disagree with you guys on this one. I think corner balancing is money well spent - if you do driving events. If you've ever driven a car that is balanced you'll want to do it all the time.
If you have coil overs it's really easy to do. On a stock car it's difficult to do but you can get close.
I have an article on my web site that explains the whole thing. It was done in 1992 and uses a Porsche for an example but the basic principles apply to any car.
It's really not necessary for a street car, and might not be necessary during your first year of running HPDEs. As you gain experience you'll want to balance the car out. It makes a much bigger difference than any aftermarket part you can buy.
Richard Newton
Autocross Performance Handbook
If you have coil overs it's really easy to do. On a stock car it's difficult to do but you can get close.
I have an article on my web site that explains the whole thing. It was done in 1992 and uses a Porsche for an example but the basic principles apply to any car.
It's really not necessary for a street car, and might not be necessary during your first year of running HPDEs. As you gain experience you'll want to balance the car out. It makes a much bigger difference than any aftermarket part you can buy.
Richard Newton
Autocross Performance Handbook
I will say that if the car is stock, it should be pretty close. IIRC they are suppose to set all of that pretty close at the factory. I have driven cars that are way off and it wasn't too hard to notice the difference, but these were cars with pretty dramatic differences in cross weights.
11-25-2008, 10:28 AM
#7
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Matt
11-25-2008, 11:17 AM
#8
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There is no freaking way you can get all 4 weights even on a street car by corner weighing it so if your mechanic told you that he is full of ****.
A lot of places offer corner weighting and almost every time I see people doing it wrong. I agree about getting it done though as a beginning driver because it makes the car much easier to control near the limit.
The goal with corner weighing is to optimize the cross weights to as close to 50/50 split for a neutral handling car. That does'nt necessarily mean all 4 weights are the same it means 50/50 split as a percentage while maintaining the proper ride height. Ideally you want the weights as even as possible left \ right but you can only do this by moving weight around but that is not always possible. The best compromise is a 50/50 percentage cross weight.
To do this the car has to ber perfectly level on 4 scales, the ride height set with driver, fuel load near the middle, tire pressures set equally, disconnecting the sway bars, and most importantly some sort of sliding plates to settle the car without bind after every adjustment. The adjustment has to be made diagonally to not disrupt the ride height while also adjusting the cross weight percentage.
I do this work on the side to help me pay for my racing which explains my attention to detail..
Enjoy..
A lot of places offer corner weighting and almost every time I see people doing it wrong. I agree about getting it done though as a beginning driver because it makes the car much easier to control near the limit.
The goal with corner weighing is to optimize the cross weights to as close to 50/50 split for a neutral handling car. That does'nt necessarily mean all 4 weights are the same it means 50/50 split as a percentage while maintaining the proper ride height. Ideally you want the weights as even as possible left \ right but you can only do this by moving weight around but that is not always possible. The best compromise is a 50/50 percentage cross weight.
To do this the car has to ber perfectly level on 4 scales, the ride height set with driver, fuel load near the middle, tire pressures set equally, disconnecting the sway bars, and most importantly some sort of sliding plates to settle the car without bind after every adjustment. The adjustment has to be made diagonally to not disrupt the ride height while also adjusting the cross weight percentage.
I do this work on the side to help me pay for my racing which explains my attention to detail..
Enjoy..
11-25-2008, 11:47 AM
#10
Race Director
While I enjoy doing them, 50% of cars corner weights seem to be WAAAYYYY OFF, the other 50% seem to be quite good. So, in about half of the cars, it was a waste of money, in the other half, more than worth it.
Again, you're just trying to equilize the work being done by the tires, specifically when comparing left to righ turns. By adjusting the static loads, you basically maximize the handling by controlling how much work the inside/unloaded tires are doing. You can't do anything about the maximum grip of the outside tires, but by shifting weight you can make real improvements in balance by ensureing the inside tires are helping you, not hurting you.
Again, you're just trying to equilize the work being done by the tires, specifically when comparing left to righ turns. By adjusting the static loads, you basically maximize the handling by controlling how much work the inside/unloaded tires are doing. You can't do anything about the maximum grip of the outside tires, but by shifting weight you can make real improvements in balance by ensureing the inside tires are helping you, not hurting you.
11-25-2008, 11:57 AM
#11
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Common myths with corner weighing:
1. You cannot change the left or the right side percentages without actually moving weight. In other words, left side weight is fixed. This is also true for front and rear percentages. In other words, when you have a 55/45 front/rear split when you start corner weighing you finish the job you still end up with 55/45 front rear split.
2. You can't just adjust one spring perch to correct the cross weight without adjusting the diagonal perch on the other end. You do the diagonal adjustment so as not to change the ride height.
Think of corner weighing as adjusting the 4 legged table so all the legs are touching the floor and not a rocking. All 4 legs may or may not have the same length to achieve this.
1. You cannot change the left or the right side percentages without actually moving weight. In other words, left side weight is fixed. This is also true for front and rear percentages. In other words, when you have a 55/45 front/rear split when you start corner weighing you finish the job you still end up with 55/45 front rear split.
2. You can't just adjust one spring perch to correct the cross weight without adjusting the diagonal perch on the other end. You do the diagonal adjustment so as not to change the ride height.
Think of corner weighing as adjusting the 4 legged table so all the legs are touching the floor and not a rocking. All 4 legs may or may not have the same length to achieve this.
11-25-2008, 12:12 PM
#12
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While I enjoy doing them, 50% of cars corner weights seem to be WAAAYYYY OFF, the other 50% seem to be quite good. So, in about half of the cars, it was a waste of money, in the other half, more than worth it.
Again, you're just trying to equilize the work being done by the tires, specifically when comparing left to righ turns. By adjusting the static loads, you basically maximize the handling by controlling how much work the inside/unloaded tires are doing. You can't do anything about the maximum grip of the outside tires, but by shifting weight you can make real improvements in balance by ensureing the inside tires are helping you, not hurting you.
Again, you're just trying to equilize the work being done by the tires, specifically when comparing left to righ turns. By adjusting the static loads, you basically maximize the handling by controlling how much work the inside/unloaded tires are doing. You can't do anything about the maximum grip of the outside tires, but by shifting weight you can make real improvements in balance by ensureing the inside tires are helping you, not hurting you.
It sounds to me like you are not really sure of the concept behind corner weighing.
11-25-2008, 12:32 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
Welcome to the forum Ernesto......spying on us Corvette people ???
I think what david is saying is that some Corvettes depending on static load are very near 50.0% cross from the get go and some are not.........Always worth it to check , I can tell you that.
All C5 and C6 Corvettes are relatively easy to corner wieght fromthe factory as the have ride hieght adjustment at all four corners....C4's are another story.
Look foward to seeing you again soon Ernesto...going to be at the 25hrs of Thunderhill ??? If so , stop by and say hey. I'll be driving with Aaron Pfadt in the silver/gold/bronze ST1 Corvette~the only Corvette entered in the event.
I think what david is saying is that some Corvettes depending on static load are very near 50.0% cross from the get go and some are not.........Always worth it to check , I can tell you that.
All C5 and C6 Corvettes are relatively easy to corner wieght fromthe factory as the have ride hieght adjustment at all four corners....C4's are another story.
Look foward to seeing you again soon Ernesto...going to be at the 25hrs of Thunderhill ??? If so , stop by and say hey. I'll be driving with Aaron Pfadt in the silver/gold/bronze ST1 Corvette~the only Corvette entered in the event.
11-25-2008, 12:55 PM
#14
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Welcome to the forum Ernesto......spying on us Corvette people ???
I think what david is saying is that some Corvettes depending on static load are very near 50.0% cross from the get go and some are not.........Always worth it to check , I can tell you that.
All C5 and C6 Corvettes are relatively easy to corner wieght fromthe factory as the have ride hieght adjustment at all four corners....C4's are another story.
Look foward to seeing you again soon Ernesto...going to be at the 25hrs of Thunderhill ??? If so , stop by and say hey. I'll be driving with Aaron Pfadt in the silver/gold/bronze ST1 Corvette~the only Corvette entered in the event.
I think what david is saying is that some Corvettes depending on static load are very near 50.0% cross from the get go and some are not.........Always worth it to check , I can tell you that.
All C5 and C6 Corvettes are relatively easy to corner wieght fromthe factory as the have ride hieght adjustment at all four corners....C4's are another story.
Look foward to seeing you again soon Ernesto...going to be at the 25hrs of Thunderhill ??? If so , stop by and say hey. I'll be driving with Aaron Pfadt in the silver/gold/bronze ST1 Corvette~the only Corvette entered in the event.
Danny,
Good luck on the 25 hr. That sounds like a great team you have there.
I wish I was racing a Corvette that's for sure. I have to extract every ounce of performance on my Mustang to get it to handle anywhere near a Corvette out of the box would.
Will I see you at Miller for the Nationals next year?
Sorry about your luck at the Nationals this year, I watched the video and I was in disbelief. Great performance though on your part. Keep it up.
Ernesto
11-25-2008, 01:01 PM
#15
Race Director
#2 is usually not true............most cars are far from level to begin with, and I can usually make most of the adjustments on a single corner to converge weight balance and heigh at the same time.
It is true that if a car happens to be very "square", meaning the rake and ride height are absolutely perfect on both sides, then corner balancing of more than about 20lbs would require adjustments on at least 2 corners.
Even then, the suspension, chassis, and body always have inconsistencies, and it's often not necessary to make adjustments on multiple corners.
It is true that if a car happens to be very "square", meaning the rake and ride height are absolutely perfect on both sides, then corner balancing of more than about 20lbs would require adjustments on at least 2 corners.
Even then, the suspension, chassis, and body always have inconsistencies, and it's often not necessary to make adjustments on multiple corners.
Common myths with corner weighing:
1. You cannot change the left or the right side percentages without actually moving weight. In other words, left side weight is fixed. This is also true for front and rear percentages. In other words, when you have a 55/45 front/rear split when you start corner weighing you finish the job you still end up with 55/45 front rear split.
2. You can't just adjust one spring perch to correct the cross weight without adjusting the diagonal perch on the other end. You do the diagonal adjustment so as not to change the ride height.
Think of corner weighing as adjusting the 4 legged table so all the legs are touching the floor and not a rocking. All 4 legs may or may not have the same length to achieve this.
1. You cannot change the left or the right side percentages without actually moving weight. In other words, left side weight is fixed. This is also true for front and rear percentages. In other words, when you have a 55/45 front/rear split when you start corner weighing you finish the job you still end up with 55/45 front rear split.
2. You can't just adjust one spring perch to correct the cross weight without adjusting the diagonal perch on the other end. You do the diagonal adjustment so as not to change the ride height.
Think of corner weighing as adjusting the 4 legged table so all the legs are touching the floor and not a rocking. All 4 legs may or may not have the same length to achieve this.
11-25-2008, 02:43 PM
#16
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Bondurant School of high performance driving Advanced road racing
Stock C6 coupes and Stock C6 Z06 NOT corner weighted and NOT balanced
Sping Mountain Stock C6 coupes and Stock Z06 NOT corner weighted and NOT balanced
Skip Barber MX5 racing school Stock MX5 Miata NOT corner weighted and NOT balanced
Bad habits are not developed by driving a car that is not corner weighted. A corner weighted car will only enhance the ablilties of a good driver.
Some of the other posts lead me to believe that some do not understand corner weighting. Remember that a corner weighted car is balanced with the drivers weight in the left seat so it is balanced when you are sitting in the car. The other issue is, when adjusting the weight with the springs you then have the issue of preloading your sway bar which should not be preloaded so now you should install some adjustable sway bar endlinks to eliminate any load on your sway bar.
My opinion still stands. Learn how to drive the car first. By the time you are ready to benefit from a corner weighted car it will be time to re align the car anyway (probably with a different setup) so, you can corner weight it then.
Another way to think about it would be to learn and understand how the car drives now so when you make a change you will be able to learn, understand and appreciate what the change did and build from their.
Hey I have an idea.. Lets talk about which tire is better Hoosier or Kumho
11-25-2008, 03:31 PM
#17
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Huh? Perhaps someone should tell these major schools
Bondurant School of high performance driving Advanced road racing
Stock C6 coupes and Stock C6 Z06 NOT corner weighted and NOT balanced
Sping Mountain Stock C6 coupes and Stock Z06 NOT corner weighted and NOT balanced
Skip Barber MX5 racing school Stock MX5 Miata NOT corner weighted and NOT balanced
Bad habits are not developed by driving a car that is not corner weighted. A corner weighted car will only enhance the ablilties of a good driver.
Some of the other posts lead me to believe that some do not understand corner weighting. Remember that a corner weighted car is balanced with the drivers weight in the left seat so it is balanced when you are sitting in the car. The other issue is, when adjusting the weight with the springs you then have the issue of preloading your sway bar which should not be preloaded so now you should install some adjustable sway bar endlinks to eliminate any load on your sway bar.
My opinion still stands. Learn how to drive the car first. By the time you are ready to benefit from a corner weighted car it will be time to re align the car anyway (probably with a different setup) so, you can corner weight it then.
Another way to think about it would be to learn and understand how the car drives now so when you make a change you will be able to learn, understand and appreciate what the change did and build from their.
Hey I have an idea.. Lets talk about which tire is better Hoosier or Kumho
Bondurant School of high performance driving Advanced road racing
Stock C6 coupes and Stock C6 Z06 NOT corner weighted and NOT balanced
Sping Mountain Stock C6 coupes and Stock Z06 NOT corner weighted and NOT balanced
Skip Barber MX5 racing school Stock MX5 Miata NOT corner weighted and NOT balanced
Bad habits are not developed by driving a car that is not corner weighted. A corner weighted car will only enhance the ablilties of a good driver.
Some of the other posts lead me to believe that some do not understand corner weighting. Remember that a corner weighted car is balanced with the drivers weight in the left seat so it is balanced when you are sitting in the car. The other issue is, when adjusting the weight with the springs you then have the issue of preloading your sway bar which should not be preloaded so now you should install some adjustable sway bar endlinks to eliminate any load on your sway bar.
My opinion still stands. Learn how to drive the car first. By the time you are ready to benefit from a corner weighted car it will be time to re align the car anyway (probably with a different setup) so, you can corner weight it then.
Another way to think about it would be to learn and understand how the car drives now so when you make a change you will be able to learn, understand and appreciate what the change did and build from their.
Hey I have an idea.. Lets talk about which tire is better Hoosier or Kumho
You'd be surprised how corner weighing is the most abused term out there. Most people don't know how, plain and simple.
11-25-2008, 06:10 PM
#19
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weighting the corner
Is there a diy way to corner weight and to adjust the height of your car where should the best ride height be for best handling on a stock 02 z06 bolts are all lowered at this point seemed to handel better before i screwed up all the bolt heights where should i adjust the bolts to what height should the car be level or a little on drivers side to make up for 200lbs ? wish i never turned the adjusting bolts at least i should of marked them .
11-25-2008, 06:24 PM
#20
Former Vendor
I'm a huge fan of corner weighting a car. There is way too many things going on, to assume it's right. If you are driving a 80 percent car at 100 percent you are in the 90 percent range. If you are driving a 100 percent car you are still in the 90 percent range.
Get the point.
Randy
Get the point.
Randy
