Racing/HPDE safety gear, and thoughts........
08-25-2007, 08:21 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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Racing/HPDE safety gear, and thoughts........
As many of you now know my racing effort hit a snag this past weekend at the Pocono National when I was hit from behind and knocked into a concrete wall after the checkered flag fell. While it has hurt us racing wise, we have much to be thankful for. We have many friends that helped us through the incident to include Bill Pintaric ( Daves brother and GT-Lite racer ), Matt Miller and the Kryder racing crew, and the entire Phoenix crew. So many that I can't list them all, but rest assured I realized after the accident how tight knit racers and crews are. We also have all of you on these forums to thank for support and well wishes, it gives us drive to come back.
In light of how bad my weekend was, I have to say that after learning of the loss of a fellow racer at Mid Ohio, I realize how fortunate I am. It makes my incident seem VERY trivial. It also made me think of the things that surround and protect us. Although my car has seen better days, I am 100%. I believe I owe this to a couple of very important things; my safety equipment and my conditioning.
If you've seen the video ( it's on my site now ) you know I took 2 pretty hard hits. The video doesn't do them justice. After it was all said and done, I thought for sure that I was going to have some residual effects. About 4 hours after the accident I developed only a slight tightness of the upper back and neck and a slight headache. Within 24 hours that all was gone, and this is with NO medicine whatsoever to relax or kill pain. I was really astonished. Yes, my accident wasn't as bad as some, but it was pretty hard, and 2 hits! I feel everything worked together to help keep me safe. First, Corvettes, especially when they are prepped by Phoenix with a first class roll cage, are pretty sturdy cars!! While mine looks bad, considering what it went through it faired very well. I sit in a Sparco EVO seat perched on top of our own Gary Hoffmans ( HardBar ) seat rails and nut adapters. Combine those with my properly anchored 5 point harness ( G-Force ), HANS and G Force helmet and I was secure even during a side impact. Although I cinch myself in pretty tight, in the video you can tell I moved around on impact, I actually still made contact with the rollcage above the driver window area. Again, in spite of this, no injury to speak of besides soreness. There has been much debate as to whether a HANS helps in side impacts, all I can say is I don't think it hurt me to have the thing on!!!
I also feel conditioning played a big roll. Although not in the svelte shape I used to be in ( admittedly I have a bit of a middle now! ) I have always trained pretty hard in terms of toughness. Flexibility, training to take hits, martial arts, etc. I really feel it played a role. After the accident I told a few that I have been hit and busted up more by training partners than this. Physical conditioning cannot be ignored. Are drivers atheletes, I can't answer that. Can being athletic and physically flexible and tough help a driver, YES, without a doubt.
Obviously all sanctioned race cars need this equipment in the car and on the driver, but for HPDE guys it's a bit different. With todays powerful and capable cars a good HPDE driver can easily approach and exceed some racing class's speeds. I think it is vital to have safety equipment for the track even when using a street car. Buy a seat, a good harness bar, the setup to mount the harness, a good helmet and a HANS. It requires a little time to swap the stuff in the week before the track days, but incorporate it into your car prep routine. A seat with properly mounted belts and a HANS with a good helmet could make a HUGE difference if something went south. If you don't have these things be VERY aware and keep things at 7 to 8/10th's. I used to drive harder than I should have in a stock car with no safety stuff before I raced, the ego gets the best of us. Sometimes it's not just ego though, look no further than the amount of broken hub bearings we see on track. Also, take your fitness level seriously. It can help save you in an accident, and it can help you stay focused and consistant in a 25 minute session in 90 degree weather. Your brain needs oxygen, if your cardio is good, that's another thing you have in your corner that won't fatigue.
This incident has made me take a look at some things I've let go, mainly myself. I've already jumped back on the training regimen and plan to get myself in as good of shape as I want the car in. I will never allow myself to get in a car again unless my cardio and fitness level is pretty darn good. Make the car good, make yourself good, use the safety equipment and be safe. Most of all have fun!
Joe
In light of how bad my weekend was, I have to say that after learning of the loss of a fellow racer at Mid Ohio, I realize how fortunate I am. It makes my incident seem VERY trivial. It also made me think of the things that surround and protect us. Although my car has seen better days, I am 100%. I believe I owe this to a couple of very important things; my safety equipment and my conditioning.
If you've seen the video ( it's on my site now ) you know I took 2 pretty hard hits. The video doesn't do them justice. After it was all said and done, I thought for sure that I was going to have some residual effects. About 4 hours after the accident I developed only a slight tightness of the upper back and neck and a slight headache. Within 24 hours that all was gone, and this is with NO medicine whatsoever to relax or kill pain. I was really astonished. Yes, my accident wasn't as bad as some, but it was pretty hard, and 2 hits! I feel everything worked together to help keep me safe. First, Corvettes, especially when they are prepped by Phoenix with a first class roll cage, are pretty sturdy cars!! While mine looks bad, considering what it went through it faired very well. I sit in a Sparco EVO seat perched on top of our own Gary Hoffmans ( HardBar ) seat rails and nut adapters. Combine those with my properly anchored 5 point harness ( G-Force ), HANS and G Force helmet and I was secure even during a side impact. Although I cinch myself in pretty tight, in the video you can tell I moved around on impact, I actually still made contact with the rollcage above the driver window area. Again, in spite of this, no injury to speak of besides soreness. There has been much debate as to whether a HANS helps in side impacts, all I can say is I don't think it hurt me to have the thing on!!!
I also feel conditioning played a big roll. Although not in the svelte shape I used to be in ( admittedly I have a bit of a middle now! ) I have always trained pretty hard in terms of toughness. Flexibility, training to take hits, martial arts, etc. I really feel it played a role. After the accident I told a few that I have been hit and busted up more by training partners than this. Physical conditioning cannot be ignored. Are drivers atheletes, I can't answer that. Can being athletic and physically flexible and tough help a driver, YES, without a doubt.
Obviously all sanctioned race cars need this equipment in the car and on the driver, but for HPDE guys it's a bit different. With todays powerful and capable cars a good HPDE driver can easily approach and exceed some racing class's speeds. I think it is vital to have safety equipment for the track even when using a street car. Buy a seat, a good harness bar, the setup to mount the harness, a good helmet and a HANS. It requires a little time to swap the stuff in the week before the track days, but incorporate it into your car prep routine. A seat with properly mounted belts and a HANS with a good helmet could make a HUGE difference if something went south. If you don't have these things be VERY aware and keep things at 7 to 8/10th's. I used to drive harder than I should have in a stock car with no safety stuff before I raced, the ego gets the best of us. Sometimes it's not just ego though, look no further than the amount of broken hub bearings we see on track. Also, take your fitness level seriously. It can help save you in an accident, and it can help you stay focused and consistant in a 25 minute session in 90 degree weather. Your brain needs oxygen, if your cardio is good, that's another thing you have in your corner that won't fatigue.
This incident has made me take a look at some things I've let go, mainly myself. I've already jumped back on the training regimen and plan to get myself in as good of shape as I want the car in. I will never allow myself to get in a car again unless my cardio and fitness level is pretty darn good. Make the car good, make yourself good, use the safety equipment and be safe. Most of all have fun!
Joe
08-25-2007, 09:02 PM
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Joe
I think many of us were thinking one the same line.
Since I will be starting my car conversion soon I will start.
1. a great CAGE. Not simple bolt in and tack in place.
2. An aluminum or steel seat, I will not use a plastic or carbon fiber seat. a forum Member Dale C. out of Ohio had his car speared and the object or fence rail went though the back of his seat and hit his shoulder blade IIRC a few years ago.
I feel the aluminum seat back adds extra protection to your body.
Not sure about extra flooring or an aluminum floor plates, take out the balsa wood. Also works with added ballast lower in the car.
There are a lot more things, but that gets it started
I think many of us were thinking one the same line.
Since I will be starting my car conversion soon I will start.
1. a great CAGE. Not simple bolt in and tack in place.
2. An aluminum or steel seat, I will not use a plastic or carbon fiber seat. a forum Member Dale C. out of Ohio had his car speared and the object or fence rail went though the back of his seat and hit his shoulder blade IIRC a few years ago.
I feel the aluminum seat back adds extra protection to your body.
Not sure about extra flooring or an aluminum floor plates, take out the balsa wood. Also works with added ballast lower in the car.
There are a lot more things, but that gets it started
08-25-2007, 11:41 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Glad to hear you are ok Joe, I know how frustrating it can be.
Tom,
One thing I would like to say about the seat. I thought about it quite a bit and put another Evo back in the car. I think the seat did a great job, the rail originally hit dead center in the seat and the seat back diverted it over so that it came through the hole for the harness. The car was doing well over 100 MPH when it hit the fence and the rail was mounted horizontally to a 6 inch round post, it was coming through any seat. I think an aluminum seat would have torn or bent and caused more injury. It was a freak accident my car has way more cage than normal (most of it was done to show off our work) the post managed to miss 4 bars by less than an inch. Thats just how my luck goes at times.
Joe
I think many of us were thinking one the same line.
Since I will be starting my car conversion soon I will start.
1. a great CAGE. Not simple bolt in and tack in place.
2. An aluminum or steel seat, I will not use a plastic or carbon fiber seat. a forum Member Dale C. out of Ohio had his car speared and the object or fence rail went though the back of his seat and hit his shoulder blade IIRC a few years ago.
I feel the aluminum seat back adds extra protection to your body.
Not sure about extra flooring or an aluminum floor plates, take out the balsa wood. Also works with added ballast lower in the car.
There are a lot more things, but that gets it started
I think many of us were thinking one the same line.
Since I will be starting my car conversion soon I will start.
1. a great CAGE. Not simple bolt in and tack in place.
2. An aluminum or steel seat, I will not use a plastic or carbon fiber seat. a forum Member Dale C. out of Ohio had his car speared and the object or fence rail went though the back of his seat and hit his shoulder blade IIRC a few years ago.
I feel the aluminum seat back adds extra protection to your body.
Not sure about extra flooring or an aluminum floor plates, take out the balsa wood. Also works with added ballast lower in the car.
There are a lot more things, but that gets it started
One thing I would like to say about the seat. I thought about it quite a bit and put another Evo back in the car. I think the seat did a great job, the rail originally hit dead center in the seat and the seat back diverted it over so that it came through the hole for the harness. The car was doing well over 100 MPH when it hit the fence and the rail was mounted horizontally to a 6 inch round post, it was coming through any seat. I think an aluminum seat would have torn or bent and caused more injury. It was a freak accident my car has way more cage than normal (most of it was done to show off our work) the post managed to miss 4 bars by less than an inch. Thats just how my luck goes at times.
08-27-2007, 02:59 AM
#6
Safety Car
Subdriver made a similar post after his incident last year as well. Thankfully most of the guys mentioned were talking about the stuff they already had, not what they 'wish' they'd been using when the accident came.
08-27-2007, 09:06 AM
#7
Le Mans Master
First of all glad to hear you were not hurt, as well as the other driver who hit you. 
The video is something to watch, it reminds me how fast things can go wrong. From what I can see you were lucky to have hit the tires rather than the armco, it was very close.
Hoping you get you car back together soon and that you have many more years of safe and accident free events from this point forward.
The video is something to watch, it reminds me how fast things can go wrong. From what I can see you were lucky to have hit the tires rather than the armco, it was very close.
Hoping you get you car back together soon and that you have many more years of safe and accident free events from this point forward.
08-27-2007, 10:46 AM
#8
Le Mans Master
I am glad to hear you are OK. We sometimes forget that racing is still a very dangerous sport. The good news is that saftey has come a LONG way over the years and more drivers are walking away from accidents. Glad to hear you were one of them. Cars, no matter how much money are ALL replaceable.
For the T1 guys saftey is easier to deal with because it's manditory. The cage, harness, and seats, fire suppresion must all be a certain spec to make it on the grid. For us HPDE guys, it becomes MUCH more difficult, as most of our cars are street cars, and roll cages are just not an option for 95% of us. Couple that with cammed out Z06's and C6Z06's that are running around today with over 500hp and you have some serious decisions to make.
There have been many threads on saftey equipment, but few that have been directed to those with street cars. I have been running HPDE for 6-7 years and have seen and tried everything. I recently made a decision to stay with the stock seats, stock belts, and stock safety equipment in my C6Z06. I have the harness bar, belts and seat grommets waiting to be installed in my garage, and I have since pulled back. My concern is that unless you have EVERYTHING working together, cage, seat, harness, hans and so on...you are potentially WORSE off than if you simply use the stock saftey equipment.
For example, it may be great that you have a race seat and harness to hold you in place, but what about your head? Basically, without HANS you are WORSE off in a harness, than not. In an accident, if you are strapped SO tightly in a harness, your body will barely move and the air bags will NOT help you in any way, so the only thing left to move is your head. If you are in the stock seat belt, your body will move several inches forward being less restricted than by a 5 point harness, taking some of the initial force, at which point impacting the air bag will keep your head from being torn off your neck and cushion the blow to your body. In a 5/6 point harness scenario, you will be held in SO tightly, that your body will have no movement, therefore taking all the imact to your sternum and never being able to utilize the benefit of the airbag system. Also, my particular car has side impact air bags, so if I had a cage, again the airbags will not have the appropriate room to function properly in an accident. So, is it better to default all the years of saftey designs of GM, with JUST for a 5/6 point harness? The more I learn from actually USING saftey devices, I have realized, they must work in conjuntion and as a complete system, not as a single device here or there!
I am thinking in a head on collision, I would rather be in a stock seat belt that was designed with the cushion of an air bag to fall into, rather than being tightly strapped into a 5/6 point harness with no room to utilize the factory saftey devices. The airbag will blow up and you'll never move forward enought to take advantage of it. With one safety device you have negated everything GM designed in the car to save your life.
Again after doing HPDE for YEARS and being strapped into harnesses, I have to ponder, are we doing the right thing for OUR application? We all think harness bars and harnesses are the way to go, but in a street car without the entire saftey package are we putting ourselves in WORSE danger?
In my application with the C6Z06, GM has designed a world class safety system (side curtain, dual airbags, crash zones), unless you plan to commit to a 100% spec saftey system (race seats, harness, cage, hans, and so on) are you better off using GM's OEM design? Even in high speed applications?
So, again, I am sorry to hear about your accident and are glad you are ok, but I think we as HPDE drivers should rethink how we approach saftey and reconsider the use of just a harness in our street cars.
For the T1 guys saftey is easier to deal with because it's manditory. The cage, harness, and seats, fire suppresion must all be a certain spec to make it on the grid. For us HPDE guys, it becomes MUCH more difficult, as most of our cars are street cars, and roll cages are just not an option for 95% of us. Couple that with cammed out Z06's and C6Z06's that are running around today with over 500hp and you have some serious decisions to make.
There have been many threads on saftey equipment, but few that have been directed to those with street cars. I have been running HPDE for 6-7 years and have seen and tried everything. I recently made a decision to stay with the stock seats, stock belts, and stock safety equipment in my C6Z06. I have the harness bar, belts and seat grommets waiting to be installed in my garage, and I have since pulled back. My concern is that unless you have EVERYTHING working together, cage, seat, harness, hans and so on...you are potentially WORSE off than if you simply use the stock saftey equipment.
For example, it may be great that you have a race seat and harness to hold you in place, but what about your head? Basically, without HANS you are WORSE off in a harness, than not. In an accident, if you are strapped SO tightly in a harness, your body will barely move and the air bags will NOT help you in any way, so the only thing left to move is your head. If you are in the stock seat belt, your body will move several inches forward being less restricted than by a 5 point harness, taking some of the initial force, at which point impacting the air bag will keep your head from being torn off your neck and cushion the blow to your body. In a 5/6 point harness scenario, you will be held in SO tightly, that your body will have no movement, therefore taking all the imact to your sternum and never being able to utilize the benefit of the airbag system. Also, my particular car has side impact air bags, so if I had a cage, again the airbags will not have the appropriate room to function properly in an accident. So, is it better to default all the years of saftey designs of GM, with JUST for a 5/6 point harness? The more I learn from actually USING saftey devices, I have realized, they must work in conjuntion and as a complete system, not as a single device here or there!
I am thinking in a head on collision, I would rather be in a stock seat belt that was designed with the cushion of an air bag to fall into, rather than being tightly strapped into a 5/6 point harness with no room to utilize the factory saftey devices. The airbag will blow up and you'll never move forward enought to take advantage of it. With one safety device you have negated everything GM designed in the car to save your life.
Again after doing HPDE for YEARS and being strapped into harnesses, I have to ponder, are we doing the right thing for OUR application? We all think harness bars and harnesses are the way to go, but in a street car without the entire saftey package are we putting ourselves in WORSE danger?
In my application with the C6Z06, GM has designed a world class safety system (side curtain, dual airbags, crash zones), unless you plan to commit to a 100% spec saftey system (race seats, harness, cage, hans, and so on) are you better off using GM's OEM design? Even in high speed applications?
So, again, I am sorry to hear about your accident and are glad you are ok, but I think we as HPDE drivers should rethink how we approach saftey and reconsider the use of just a harness in our street cars.
Last edited by 95jersey; 08-27-2007 at 10:51 AM.
08-27-2007, 11:46 AM
#9
Le Mans Master
Joe, thanks for the kind comments about my brother. I guess he isn't all that bad after all. And the Kryderacing and Phoenix crews? The best of people.
You and I have been discussing this before; I think with the speed of new cars today that HPDEs are potentially MORE dangerous than racing because some people don't take the safety items as serious as racing does.
Hopefully your post will open some people's eyes, although I think most of the readers here are pretty knowledgeable and sane. It is the one's who don't do the research who are the most at risk.
You and I have been discussing this before; I think with the speed of new cars today that HPDEs are potentially MORE dangerous than racing because some people don't take the safety items as serious as racing does.
Hopefully your post will open some people's eyes, although I think most of the readers here are pretty knowledgeable and sane. It is the one's who don't do the research who are the most at risk.
Last edited by BuckeyeZ06; 08-27-2007 at 11:49 AM.
08-27-2007, 01:38 PM
#10
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I think the safety issues in HPDEs may have lead or are leading the PCAs too their new harness and race seat rules.
Some clubs say no harness with out a race seat with out a roll cage.
and safety is why most clubs say no R compounds for novice, beginner and intermediate students.
Some clubs say no harness with out a race seat with out a roll cage.
and safety is why most clubs say no R compounds for novice, beginner and intermediate students.
08-27-2007, 02:53 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '10-'11
HPDE guy here, recreational tracker, perhaps TT in future.
Have: 4 pt weld-in roll bar.
Planned: seats and belts and HANS or R3 (still working thru the "this vs. that" and what's "best" for me.
... all to be in before next year.
Agree that, in safety area, as in horsepower area "too much" is "just right" ... that's my plan ...
Have: 4 pt weld-in roll bar.
Planned: seats and belts and HANS or R3 (still working thru the "this vs. that" and what's "best" for me.
... all to be in before next year.
Agree that, in safety area, as in horsepower area "too much" is "just right" ... that's my plan ...
08-27-2007, 03:03 PM
#12
Melting Slicks
I think the safety issues in HPDEs may have lead or are leading the PCAs too their new harness and race seat rules.
Some clubs say no harness with out a race seat with out a roll cage.
and safety is why most clubs say no R compounds for novice, beginner and intermediate students.
Some clubs say no harness with out a race seat with out a roll cage.
and safety is why most clubs say no R compounds for novice, beginner and intermediate students.
08-27-2007, 03:13 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
Again after doing HPDE for YEARS and being strapped into harnesses, I have to ponder, are we doing the right thing for OUR application? We all think harness bars and harnesses are the way to go, but in a street car without the entire saftey package are we putting ourselves in WORSE danger?
I'm actually not sure at this point what to think. The extreme answer is run a fully built track car or don't go out. The other end is run your car 100% stock. I'm not sure I buy either extreme. We can't all afford a pure track car, trailer, hauler. The flip side is I don't honestly believe that the factory 3-point with air bag is the best choice either. For now until someone forces me to do otherwise I will continue to use the setup I have.
I've looked into 4-point roll bars. I have yet to see one that is guaranteed to pass SCCA tech. Does not completely obscure the rear view mirror. Is actually proven to work in a real crash test. Most are now advertised as something other than a roll bar even though they sure as hell look like one.
At the end of the day there is an assumed risk every time you go out on track. What you choose to use for safety devices is what level of risk you are personally willing to assume.
08-27-2007, 03:39 PM
#14
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Harness systems
February 5, 2007
Dear National Staff and Region Presidents,
The purpose of this email is to inform you of a change in the Driver's
Education National Standards regarding the use of safety harnesses which will become effective on Jan.1, 2008. The current "Equal Restraint"
Standard states that both the student and instructor shall have the same restraint system.
The problem with this Standard is that it does not define the complete system, in terms of the type of seat to be used with a 5 or 6 point harness.
The new "Harness" Standard (See below) is written to compliment the
"Equal Restraint" Standard and will go into effect January 1, 2008, but a region may adopt the standard earlier.
The new standard states that if a harness system is installed, it must be used in conjunction with a seat with manufacturer supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. These routing holes insure that the belts will remain in place when needed. A one piece seat is recommended but not required for it may interfere with the operation of the OEM three piece belt required for street application.
Thank you for your help in implementing this new standard. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.
Pete Tremper
National DE Committee Chairman
Tremper9146@aol.com <mailto:Tremper9146@aol.com>
February 5, 2007
Dear National Staff and Region Presidents,
The purpose of this email is to inform you of a change in the Driver's
Education National Standards regarding the use of safety harnesses which will become effective on Jan.1, 2008. The current "Equal Restraint"
Standard states that both the student and instructor shall have the same restraint system.
The problem with this Standard is that it does not define the complete system, in terms of the type of seat to be used with a 5 or 6 point harness.
The new "Harness" Standard (See below) is written to compliment the
"Equal Restraint" Standard and will go into effect January 1, 2008, but a region may adopt the standard earlier.
The new standard states that if a harness system is installed, it must be used in conjunction with a seat with manufacturer supplied routing holes for the shoulder and anti-submarine belts. These routing holes insure that the belts will remain in place when needed. A one piece seat is recommended but not required for it may interfere with the operation of the OEM three piece belt required for street application.
Thank you for your help in implementing this new standard. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.
Pete Tremper
National DE Committee Chairman
Tremper9146@aol.com <mailto:Tremper9146@aol.com>
08-27-2007, 07:37 PM
#15
Team Owner
I am glad to hear you are OK. We sometimes forget that racing is still a very dangerous sport. The good news is that saftey has come a LONG way over the years and more drivers are walking away from accidents. Glad to hear you were one of them. Cars, no matter how much money are ALL replaceable.
For the T1 guys saftey is easier to deal with because it's manditory. The cage, harness, and seats, fire suppresion must all be a certain spec to make it on the grid. For us HPDE guys, it becomes MUCH more difficult, as most of our cars are street cars, and roll cages are just not an option for 95% of us. Couple that with cammed out Z06's and C6Z06's that are running around today with over 500hp and you have some serious decisions to make.
There have been many threads on saftey equipment, but few that have been directed to those with street cars. I have been running HPDE for 6-7 years and have seen and tried everything. I recently made a decision to stay with the stock seats, stock belts, and stock safety equipment in my C6Z06. I have the harness bar, belts and seat grommets waiting to be installed in my garage, and I have since pulled back. My concern is that unless you have EVERYTHING working together, cage, seat, harness, hans and so on...you are potentially WORSE off than if you simply use the stock saftey equipment.
For example, it may be great that you have a race seat and harness to hold you in place, but what about your head? Basically, without HANS you are WORSE off in a harness, than not. In an accident, if you are strapped SO tightly in a harness, your body will barely move and the air bags will NOT help you in any way, so the only thing left to move is your head. If you are in the stock seat belt, your body will move several inches forward being less restricted than by a 5 point harness, taking some of the initial force, at which point impacting the air bag will keep your head from being torn off your neck and cushion the blow to your body. In a 5/6 point harness scenario, you will be held in SO tightly, that your body will have no movement, therefore taking all the imact to your sternum and never being able to utilize the benefit of the airbag system. Also, my particular car has side impact air bags, so if I had a cage, again the airbags will not have the appropriate room to function properly in an accident. So, is it better to default all the years of saftey designs of GM, with JUST for a 5/6 point harness? The more I learn from actually USING saftey devices, I have realized, they must work in conjuntion and as a complete system, not as a single device here or there!
I am thinking in a head on collision, I would rather be in a stock seat belt that was designed with the cushion of an air bag to fall into, rather than being tightly strapped into a 5/6 point harness with no room to utilize the factory saftey devices. The airbag will blow up and you'll never move forward enought to take advantage of it. With one safety device you have negated everything GM designed in the car to save your life.
Again after doing HPDE for YEARS and being strapped into harnesses, I have to ponder, are we doing the right thing for OUR application? We all think harness bars and harnesses are the way to go, but in a street car without the entire saftey package are we putting ourselves in WORSE danger?
In my application with the C6Z06, GM has designed a world class safety system (side curtain, dual airbags, crash zones), unless you plan to commit to a 100% spec saftey system (race seats, harness, cage, hans, and so on) are you better off using GM's OEM design? Even in high speed applications?
So, again, I am sorry to hear about your accident and are glad you are ok, but I think we as HPDE drivers should rethink how we approach saftey and reconsider the use of just a harness in our street cars.
For the T1 guys saftey is easier to deal with because it's manditory. The cage, harness, and seats, fire suppresion must all be a certain spec to make it on the grid. For us HPDE guys, it becomes MUCH more difficult, as most of our cars are street cars, and roll cages are just not an option for 95% of us. Couple that with cammed out Z06's and C6Z06's that are running around today with over 500hp and you have some serious decisions to make.
There have been many threads on saftey equipment, but few that have been directed to those with street cars. I have been running HPDE for 6-7 years and have seen and tried everything. I recently made a decision to stay with the stock seats, stock belts, and stock safety equipment in my C6Z06. I have the harness bar, belts and seat grommets waiting to be installed in my garage, and I have since pulled back. My concern is that unless you have EVERYTHING working together, cage, seat, harness, hans and so on...you are potentially WORSE off than if you simply use the stock saftey equipment.
For example, it may be great that you have a race seat and harness to hold you in place, but what about your head? Basically, without HANS you are WORSE off in a harness, than not. In an accident, if you are strapped SO tightly in a harness, your body will barely move and the air bags will NOT help you in any way, so the only thing left to move is your head. If you are in the stock seat belt, your body will move several inches forward being less restricted than by a 5 point harness, taking some of the initial force, at which point impacting the air bag will keep your head from being torn off your neck and cushion the blow to your body. In a 5/6 point harness scenario, you will be held in SO tightly, that your body will have no movement, therefore taking all the imact to your sternum and never being able to utilize the benefit of the airbag system. Also, my particular car has side impact air bags, so if I had a cage, again the airbags will not have the appropriate room to function properly in an accident. So, is it better to default all the years of saftey designs of GM, with JUST for a 5/6 point harness? The more I learn from actually USING saftey devices, I have realized, they must work in conjuntion and as a complete system, not as a single device here or there!
I am thinking in a head on collision, I would rather be in a stock seat belt that was designed with the cushion of an air bag to fall into, rather than being tightly strapped into a 5/6 point harness with no room to utilize the factory saftey devices. The airbag will blow up and you'll never move forward enought to take advantage of it. With one safety device you have negated everything GM designed in the car to save your life.
Again after doing HPDE for YEARS and being strapped into harnesses, I have to ponder, are we doing the right thing for OUR application? We all think harness bars and harnesses are the way to go, but in a street car without the entire saftey package are we putting ourselves in WORSE danger?
In my application with the C6Z06, GM has designed a world class safety system (side curtain, dual airbags, crash zones), unless you plan to commit to a 100% spec saftey system (race seats, harness, cage, hans, and so on) are you better off using GM's OEM design? Even in high speed applications?
So, again, I am sorry to hear about your accident and are glad you are ok, but I think we as HPDE drivers should rethink how we approach saftey and reconsider the use of just a harness in our street cars.
Personally I would never track a car without a HANS and what it takes to make it work. YOur GM design safety sytems are probably basically useless even at the minimum endof our speeds at a track. Everyone here even beginners are hitting 130-140 with some cars now with a cam only capable of 170+.
First mod I did before ever seeing a track was a 4 point and harness. Now with the HANS I feel much better. I have seen many neck injuries in boat racing that were fatal. I know I am not going to hit a wall at 150 or more and be fine. Probably won't even be anything
I am just looking for a benefit at 80-90 mph. Hopefully if something goes wrong I can dump some speed before impact. First thing people get in street cars at 40-60 MPH is neck injuries.Guess with the PCA rule both occupants will need a HANS
08-27-2007, 07:53 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
You cage a C5 or C6 and it is not safe for the street unless you always wear your helmet - remember Joe said he hit his cranium (with helmet on) in his accident. That padding is not really for your bare head. So a caged car becomes a track only car - I know in my household the accidents have been on the street.
A 4pt roll bar does very little in a C5 ZO6 since I have never seen a crushed roof C5 ZO6 where the 4 Pt would help - I think they are great and I would like to have one - but its function is? What a C5 ZO6 does need is door bars - preferably the NASCAR TYPE - for T-bone impacts. That definitely takes it out of street use and definitely mangles the interior. Kind of hammers resale value also...
By the way, we did just put a 4pt Rollbar in my son's '78 Nova and may extend it depending on its future use.
Dual use street cars take a risk no matter which way you go.
A 4pt roll bar does very little in a C5 ZO6 since I have never seen a crushed roof C5 ZO6 where the 4 Pt would help - I think they are great and I would like to have one - but its function is? What a C5 ZO6 does need is door bars - preferably the NASCAR TYPE - for T-bone impacts. That definitely takes it out of street use and definitely mangles the interior. Kind of hammers resale value also...
By the way, we did just put a 4pt Rollbar in my son's '78 Nova and may extend it depending on its future use.
Dual use street cars take a risk no matter which way you go.
08-27-2007, 10:02 PM
#17
Team Owner
4 point has to help reinforce the roof and even if it bends it should be better than a Harness bar with two mounting points.
08-27-2007, 10:10 PM
#18
Team Owner
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It does start to work on your head a little once you start modifying/installing aftermarket safety equipment yourself. "I installed all this stuff, hope I got it right." Especially if someone else (like your wife) co-drives your car.
08-28-2007, 12:38 AM
#19
Burning Brakes
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Some very good points have been brought up, I just want to clarify that in my long post above I believe things must be packaged together. I would never advise running a HANS, harnesses, or a seat without running it all together. As far as cages in HPDE cars, Varkswo has hit a nail on the head. Cages are really not intended for use without a helmet. I do however feel that even without a cage a PROPERLY mounted seat and harness setup combined with a HANS and helmet keep you put better than the factory seat and 3 point, especially in a Corvette due to the strength of the B-pillar area in rolloever cases. I've never seen or heard any evidence that states that it would be unsafe to be in a car with airbags like this. Think about it, an airbag is basically designed to "supplement" the 3 point system because engineers know it will not keep you completely stationary. I hope I'm getting my logic across!!
I could be wrong but I also agree with John Shields in the fact that I don't think the factory safety systems in the car are really intended to work well at much above highway speeds. Do they still work, you bet. But are they "designed" for 100+mph stuff, only the engineers and designers can answer that.
In short I really believe that the HPDE guys could benefit from a package of properly mounted seat, harness bar ( for properly mounting the belts and nothing more ), properly mounted belts, HANS and helmet. This in addition to the relative safety of a Corvette and its airbag system I feel is a very good setup. If however you don't want one or two things from this list, don't do any of them. Run the car stock. One additionaly side benefit to running a race seat is the opportunity to relax and concentrate on driving versus trying to figure out a way to stay in your seat during cornering.
Joe
I could be wrong but I also agree with John Shields in the fact that I don't think the factory safety systems in the car are really intended to work well at much above highway speeds. Do they still work, you bet. But are they "designed" for 100+mph stuff, only the engineers and designers can answer that.
In short I really believe that the HPDE guys could benefit from a package of properly mounted seat, harness bar ( for properly mounting the belts and nothing more ), properly mounted belts, HANS and helmet. This in addition to the relative safety of a Corvette and its airbag system I feel is a very good setup. If however you don't want one or two things from this list, don't do any of them. Run the car stock. One additionaly side benefit to running a race seat is the opportunity to relax and concentrate on driving versus trying to figure out a way to stay in your seat during cornering.
Joe
08-28-2007, 02:06 AM
#20
Le Mans Master
....As far as cages in HPDE cars, Varkswo has hit a nail on the head. Cages are really not intended for use without a helmet. I do however feel that even without a cage a PROPERLY mounted seat and harness setup combined with a HANS and helmet keep you put better than the factory seat and 3 point, especially in a Corvette due to the strength of the B-pillar area in rolloever cases. I've never seen or heard any evidence that states that it would be unsafe to be in a car with airbags like this. ...
I could be wrong but I also agree with John Shields in the fact that I don't think the factory safety systems in the car are really intended to work well at much above highway speeds. Do they still work, you bet. But are they "designed" for 100+mph stuff, only the engineers and designers can answer that.
In short I really believe that the HPDE guys could benefit from a package of properly mounted seat, harness bar ( for properly mounting the belts and nothing more ), properly mounted belts, HANS and helmet. This in addition to the relative safety of a Corvette and its airbag system I feel is a very good setup. If however you don't want one or two things from this list, don't do any of them. Run the car stock. One additionaly side benefit to running a race seat is the opportunity to relax and concentrate on driving versus trying to figure out a way to stay in your seat during cornering.
Joe
I could be wrong but I also agree with John Shields in the fact that I don't think the factory safety systems in the car are really intended to work well at much above highway speeds. Do they still work, you bet. But are they "designed" for 100+mph stuff, only the engineers and designers can answer that.
In short I really believe that the HPDE guys could benefit from a package of properly mounted seat, harness bar ( for properly mounting the belts and nothing more ), properly mounted belts, HANS and helmet. This in addition to the relative safety of a Corvette and its airbag system I feel is a very good setup. If however you don't want one or two things from this list, don't do any of them. Run the car stock. One additionaly side benefit to running a race seat is the opportunity to relax and concentrate on driving versus trying to figure out a way to stay in your seat during cornering.
Joe
. I know one of my cars has a race seat - staying behind the wheel is a big advantage in driving and "offs" - and I have back-to-back driving session experience with and without. I also have sand trap experience with an without
I did a lot les banging around inside the car with the Corbeau. I have no harnesses since I have no H&N.HANS are a problem for those of us that are instructors - the two trees I have hit at the track I was in the passenger seat - one was in a convertible 911 (never again!). The R3 seems the H&N of choice there.