Wicked Weasel

After VIR with NCM I realized again how a good organized HPDE can be run. Unlike other events from this year not once did I feel that I got screwed out of time or that I was rushed into my car without having time to setup. The event was very safe with the orgainzers and instructors working together watching over all the people and run groups (i.e. I saw one car moved out of the advance group because he was not an advance driver). At WGI this weekend I saw more incidents than ever before. It makes me worried that organizers and instructors are not doing their jobs and people are just being advanced based on track time and not ability level.

So I figured why not put together a thread of things that we like and do not like about HPDEs and then make it a sticky for future HPDEs organizers to look at (whether or not they do anything we will see).

If you do post something that you do not like please also try to post a suggestion that may help alleviate the problem.

Ok I will start:

Do not have your morning meeting from 8:00-8:30 and expect your advance group to be on the track at 8:30. For the most advance drivers take longer to get in their car than other drivers. Even if the car is ready there is still firesuits, helmets, HANS, harness, etc that need to be done at the advance driver level that doesnt happen at other levels. Suggestion - if you need to have the meeting at 8:00 then take care of all the track issues right at 8:00 then dismiss the advance drivers.

95jersey

Here are a couple...

So there is an incident and you (HPDE organization) have gotten off schedule. Instead of trying to maintain the original schedule and cut everyone's session short by 5-10 minutes...just delete that session. I would rather sacrafice a full 25 minute session to get the rest of my sessions at full length. So if you give 5 25 minute session in a day, I would give one up in a heartbeat to get 4 full sessions rather than 5 15 minute sessions....make sense? NOTHING WORSE then getting on the track and just getting the tires warm when I get the checkered flag. Sometimes it's better to just sacrafice the session.

Here's another one...if you have more than 1 accident at a particular club...your out! I know no one intentionally goes out to smash their car and ANYTHING can happen to us at anytime (God forbid). But it just seems that everytime I go to an HPDE lately, someone is hitting a wall. People need to chill out!

My opinion is that if you have more than one contact incident, then your not driving responsibly and are a danger to yourself and the rest of the club and should be banned. I would be this would "weed" out the bad element at HPDE.

Here is another...a fast car and 10 track days does not qualify you for the advanced run group. Just because you have a 500hp car and pass everyone in Intermediate doesn't mean your ready for the advanced group. I have long said the advanced group has NOTHING to do with the car, but the drivers ability to see on coming cars well in advance and provide point bye's BEFORE that driver losses momentum. An advanced driver should be able to heel/toe, take corners at 95% moment and be able to stick his had out the window at the same time. I have seen Mazda miata drivers with super slow cars that NEVER allow the oncoming car to lose momentum because of their lack of straitline speed. The red group should run like a symphony...point bye's taking place faster than an upshifts. To enter the advanced group you should demonstrate your ability to point by under the MOST demanding of driving situations...

Can you tell I am having a good day?

The Spark

The organization that puts on the HPDEs I go to have a good system.

Run Groups:

Green - novice
Blue
Yellow
Red - advanced
White - instructors

Meeting for instructors @ 7:45 AM.
Meeting @ 8 AM for Green through Red.
WHITE track session at 8:30.
RED is next. They have their cars in the pits while White is on the track. As soon as White is off Red goes out. Instructors have time to park their cars and get their stuff ready to ride with students.
GREEN is next.
YELLOW is next. These are more advanced and most have soloed (no instructors).
BLUE is last. Most have instructors.

Next session they move white to end. Then we break for lunch.

The next run group is always waiting in the pits to pull out when the previous group pulls off track. The instructors have time to talk to students after a session (usually) without having to jump out and get in another car.

They use flags on a flag pole to tell everyone the run group that is coming up next. When you see the flag color for your run group go up, you start heading for the pits.

It works pretty smoothly. Every group gets 4 sessions a day with time for lunch and some time for parade laps around the track. We are usually done ~ 5PM.

AU N EGL

Roc and I thank you very much for your kind words.


MORE THEN ONE?? One and your history. Most Chief Instructors on the east coast know each other. ONE major incident by a student to get that student banned from one club will go out to other chief instructors at other clubs to know about it.

also We ( NCM ) found that high speed auto-x does not count as experience. We moved TWO High speed auto-x ( so called Experts) ppl from black to green, do the lack of driving experience and lack of safty.

On our first morning instructors meeting I ask the instructors how they feel about keeping speeds to no more then 125 on the long straights, so students can learn the line, safty and traffic managment. This is for the first two sessions of the two lower groups. This seems to work very well.


I will post up what we look for or will be looking for to advance to intermediate and advance run groups.

One student who had 30 some track days, still was running at intermedate level. SO even the number of track days does not mean your ready for a differnt run group.

I send a survey to our instructors each off season to ask them many questions. The NCM events are the result of what our instructors want in an HPDE.

Not evey HPDE or track event should be the same either. Some are geared toward more intermedate and advance students, which is great. Some more all rounded too.

If you like the event, promote it, if you dont like the event, dont go back.

There are so many choices and clubs on many different tracks on the same weekend that we have choices.

----

NCM ( events not days )

Green = Novice ( 0 - 1)
Yellow = Beginner ( 2 - 5 )
Blue = Intermediate ( 6 -14 )
Black = Advanced ( 15+ )
Red = Instructor

Then run group assignments also depend on the whole student population. example: you may have 20 events and run in the advance group. One fall event ( after the race seasons ended) you wind up in an intermeadate group. The Advance group as 40 guys with 5+ years and 60+ plus events EACH under their belts. So you are also placed based on the whole student populations experience too.

Wicked Weasel

I like the sign off system when going to a new track or going to a new organization.

I sent you a list of tracks and days that I have been out there, but you dont know me from anyone else so throw an instructor in my car and see if I am qualified to be in the group. If so then after a session give me the sign off to solo if not then come out again with me or if you feel drop me down a level.

bb69

As a HPDE organizer, I appreciate seeing this. Our events are geared mostly towards beginner/novice level drivers, but I think we can learn something from this.

From an organizer point of view, here are some things I would like to see out of attendees:

1. Be on time for the drivers meeting and pay attention. There is a lot to cover during this meeting, and if you screw up because you weren't listening, you can harm yourself and others.

2. Use the instruction that is available. It's there for you, and everyone can benefit from having a good instructor ride with them.

3. Don't confuse straight line speed with being a good driver. We always get someone who complains a car won't let them pass on a half mile straight. It's probably because you are holding them up for the other 1.5 miles of turns.

4. Give us feedback. If you like something, or dislike something, let us know.

Ken

robvuk

I have also noticed that some times there might be someone in a group who drives too slow to be there. He might be knowledgeable and safe but he's driving too slow, slows up traffic and is required to give too many point by's. And some times the student might be doing a fine job of driving but he thinks he's too good to give point by's. He should be dropped back until he learns to give those point by's when appropriate.

Then there's the issue of the cars that are equipped with slicks or other race modifications. As an instructor, I have permission to go out in the red group but I stay in black because I run completely stock C5 on street tires. I'm just in the way in the red group. It seems there are too many people who are good drivers that try to run in the fast group but don't have the equipment and vice versa. Skill level and experience are important but keeping a smooth flow is also important. A frustrated driver might take an unnecessary chance to get around a slow one.

Tom, I like the idea of a flag pole with colored flags on it to represent who's on track and who's on the grid. It would help keep us from constantly referring to the tiny printed schedule as often.


I'll think of more later.

wtknght1

I like a lot of what has been said so far, but I don't like the "one contact and you're out" thing. Stuff happens...that may or may not be under your control (oil on track, stray animal, etc). I personally have never hit anything at a DE, but it can happen. Several events use stickers when you put 2 wheels off, etc. The Viper guys call them "Woodchucks." 3 Woodchucks and you're done. It works.

I like the idea of more liberal passing, especially in the advanced and instructor group (like Chin/Tracquest). I think it should be progressively more open. Several groups do this now and it makes for a much smoother session. In the beginner groups, keep the passing to only the long straights (at least at first). As you go up in skill, make the passing also on the short straights (like between 1-2, 3-4, etc at VIR). For the advanced and instructor groups, passing anywhere with a signal works very well. The theory behind all this is that if you keep everyone moving, there are no "trains" so there's less chance of contact; and you keep the frustration levels down. And quite honestly, if you're not ready for open passing (with a signal) by the time you get to the Advanced group, you probably need to re-evaluate what you're doing.

The Viper guys use a transponder system to grid the cars. Each car is issued a transponder which they stick to the inside glass. This is a great (but expensive) way to help traffic jams. After the first session, the fastest lap time grids 1st, and so on. They also use this system to see who might move up a group or two and who might move down a group or two. By Sunday, most of the drivers in a particular group are within 10 seconds per lap of each other and spread out enough so there's not much traffic.

I also like for the instructors to have "sign off" stickers with them so when/if they feel the student is ready, they can go solo.

In-car communicators are a great thing - all instructors should have them!

I DO NOT like having a 'speed limit' of any kind on a track. It's unenforceable unless you plan on having cops with radar guns out there.

I definitely like the flag on a pole system to alert which group is out there. Having a very loud PA system though is also a must at most events. Just because it's loud in the morning (with no cars running) doesn't mean everyone will hear it when I'm screaming down the front straight at 150. Crank up the volume - most racers are hard of hearing anyway!!!!

Try not to assign more than 2 students to any instructor; and certainly avoid going back-to-back. That will give the instructor time to talk to their student after a run - very important!!!!!

Student critique sheets/cards are a good thing. Instructor critique sheets/cards are also a good thing.

Wicked Weasel

The problem is you have many different types of cars all with advance drivers. A 500 rwhp vette could easily have to share a track with a 100rwhp honda civic. Both advance drivers, but the Honda is doing 100 top speed while the vette is approaching 150.

Many times the flagger is the only saving grace to both drivers.

Should the Honda be moved down a group because of owning a slower car?

robvuk

I agree. That's what I was saying. A driver's speed on the track is as important as his skill level. The guy in the civic might have slicks and be a good driver. If he's keeping up with the Z's on everything escept the straights, that's fine. There will be a few point by's. But let's not have an advanced driver in that civic on street tires trying to run in the advanced group. He's just going to get run over.

The problem is that, as an advanced driver, he should KNOW what group is better for him. But some times ego's get in the way and he might prefer to run in the blue group but SHOULD run in the yellow.

95jersey

Not if he is truly an advanced driver. If so, he'll see you coming a mile away and have his hand out the window before your even within 50 feet of him. An advanced driver should have eyes behind their head and the ability to control their car at 9/10ths while allowing other to pass. You don't need a prolonged hands out the window, just some kind of signal that shows me you know I am there.

It is my opinion, before you are allowed into the advanced group, you need to get to the point... where driving fast under stressful conditions becomes 1st nature and completely automatic. You should NOT have to think under 95% of track situations, but have the skill to automatically react and adjust instantaneously. Nothing should be a suprise and you should be ready for anything.

If I were an instructor, I would have a multi-point spot quiz for all students considering the advanced run group. At the very minimum you should (on demand without advanced warning):

• Tell me the color of a given corner's worker's t shirt after we pass.
• Be able to hold a normal conversation under HARD cornering and braking
• Tell me what you did wrong before I can even open my mouth as an instructor
• Not make the same mistake twice
• Show me the safe areas of emergency exit before you enter a corner
• Be able to hit any apex I suggest on demand
• Be able to point people by under any circumstance that is deemed safe.

It is about competence, not your lap times. If I found a driver to be slow but could do all the things above without question he would get my bump before some intermediate hot shot that could run the fastest lap times of the day. If I were an instructor, I want someone who is relaxed behind the wheel at all times, especially when their is trouble.

Bob, in no way is this aimed at you, just using your comments to pursue the topic further.

TRACKMAN2

its true although i love some of my fellow expert drivers the just dont have the hp and tend sometimes dangerously get in the way .. and that there are some drivers in advanced groups that suck bad i mean real bad.. but i dont think they are the norm but the exception and notice more that more often there are drivers in a b group that would have far less trouble in a ... i think it is up to thr individual to place himself in the right group.. as for having to prove yourself every time you go to a new event would get old.....like when i came up to wgi this spring and mr weasel spoke for my ability and they let me run with them an UHUM pass threm.. that was cool...

MungoZ06

A good HPDE … suggestions (this from a student perspective):

Non-event specific:

Organizing bodies would be members of the “USHPDA” US High Performance Driving Association.” This organization does not exist, to my knowledge, but if it existed it would conceptually function along these lines:

• Be a professional education and training association, with member organizations offering HPDE instruction.
• Offer “train the instructor” programs that member organizations would use to train, qualify, evaluate, and certify instructors. Instructors would have “levels” … “Master” instructors could certify other instructors. Each organization would have at least one “Master” instructor.
• Instructors rated on demonstrated ability to instruct … the best instructor is not necessarily the fastest racer.
• Establish standardized student categories and labels … e.g., “Level 1” or “Green” would mean the same thing regardless of who was conducting the event.
• Require member organizations to use a standard student log book, with defined, progressive evaluation criteria. (NASA PassPort is an example)
• Member organizations would agree to reciprocity … instructor certification standards, accept standard student logbook ratings for assignment.
• Develop standardized tech forms.
• Establish standard medical forms. (e.g., helmet mount or lanyard tag)
• Offer a national instructor database.
• On consent basis, make a national student database available (this may be tough …)
Note: Membership in this association would be earned by documenting event management disciplines. Association representatives could, and would drop in unannounced on any member event for evaluation of organization and event.

Before:• Registration form requiring student to document when, where, what organization, and what student level attained as part of student placement process.
• Read-ahead package for student with:
• - Standardized tech forms.
• - Pre-event checklist
• - Link information to “how to” articles.
• - “track day” instructions, e.g., “be prepared to discuss your experience and expectations with your instructor at a pre-grid conference.
• If possible, list instructors and their certifications …. Ideally “Instructor” “Sr Instructor” Master Instructor

Event:• Adequate signage for first-time students or first-time at track students. “station 1, station 2, etc.”
• Plan some slack in the schedule … something always comes up …
• Honor time commitments … don’t cut sessions.
• Have adequate Public Address capability, or other means of communicating schedule changes to the group at large.
• Prohibit cell phones on while gridding or on track.
• Time for Instructor-student conference before gridding …
• Time for instructor-student critique after session (best in paddock area – mindful that some students want to/need to do immediate tire checks – pyro or pressure.)
• Employ track passes for classroom students.
• Be prepared to move students to a different group or different instructor (various reasons for this)
• Ensure Student Log Book is completed and signed off legibly by instructor (if more than one instructor; ensure last instructor has written input from other instructor(s).

Post-event:
Have student feedback on instructors and event.
Have instructor feedback on students and event.

Other:
Compatible in-car comms equipment (e.g., if I have a fixed helmet earpiece, I can plug in the connector to the instructor’s equip … )

TRACKMAN2

you know im not going to quit untill i get some responce

TRACKMAN2

exelent points mr mungo.... great ideas i always ask people i teach what worked better for them.. and know many "instructors" on a ""mall guard "" trip. i have had several people say they learned more off of me in one section than other instructors all day....mostly all you need to be an instructor iis a hat!!

DOUG @ ECS

Well said Matt,
I have found it surprising how many people do not watch each corner worker (from conversations in the pits) mostly lower run group people, but never the less these guys are instrumental to our safety.

I also have debated to myself the speed issue, last year there was a car in the advanced group that was going less than half the speed of the other cars. I'm sure the driver has a ton of experience and his lines were spot on, but corner workers were feverishly waving the white flag when he was still three turns ahead. Great driver or not, that's dangerous.

Bink

Great Thread.........especially for newbies(me).

AU N EGL

The PCA and BMW assocations have the largest groups conducting HPDEs. PCA National is fairly well organized, with National standards for Instructors and Schools.

NASA is working on the standardising there HPDE portions of the events as well.

I do not think all HPDEs should be run the same. It would be boaring for students and Instructors.

Also I think there is a difference from an HP Drivers Education and track time. Some event are just lapping events called HPDEs.

Class room time helps assure it is an EDUCATIONAL event.


The other challange are, as there have been threads in the past:

Personal car insurance vs timing issue. Check your policies
There are plus and minus to having timing equipment.

Event and venue release forms.

Harness systems, installations procedures & Seats vs no harness systems without Roll cages.

"R" compounds on Novices & Beginer cars

The number of cars per run group. 10 to 13 cars per mile is a good model. Some clubs use more and a few less cars per mile. I have seen up to 20 cars per mile in one school. Speaking of parade laps

Instructors in the cars, one on one vs instructors watching at corners and commenting to the students AFTER the session.

There is a time and place for just Test & Tune and open lapping vs a HPDE.

Some times too many rules are not a good thing. and some time if things are written down, they can come back and bite you.
yet too few rules may not be a good thing either.

So there are a few more things to chew on.

GRINS

One HPDE group I have run with for several years has a "lead-follow" session for the beginner group each event. The "lines" are covered in a classroom session first, then the instructors divide the group up and take them out (with the instructors driving the lead cars and the students following in their own cars) and drive the lines at conservative speeds. After a lap is complete, the beginner immediately behind the instructor drops to end of line on the back straight (point by exercise). After everyone gets a turn behind the instructors (about 5 laps), the instructors exit and the beginners run the rest of their first session. With 4 to 5 instructors on the big track at Willow there is plenty of spacing, it eats up about half of their first 20 minute session. Helps to get the newbies settled down too.
be well,
Don

Wicked Weasel

I see and hear it in all the groups. What Flagger??


Matt I like to add to your list.

Advance drivers should be using hand signals ALL THE TIME. This not only includes point-bys, but coming to pit and to all the corner workers at the end of a session.

We are suppose to be leading by example not thinking we are better.