Why not Corvette?
06-20-2007, 10:55 PM
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Why not Corvette?
After owning Porsches since 1977 I bought a C5 in 2000 and now have a C6Z06. The last 7 years have been the most satisfying years of my automotive experiences but I have to wonder about the one thing that I have been really disappointed in.
Why are Corvette clubs so into quilt socials, car shows, and well more quilt socials?
Why do we have to depend on the PCA, BMWCCA, MFBA, Audi club, Mazda clubs, Ferrari clubs, etc., etc. to put on DE's and track events?
I know the NCCC does auto x but they are not track events and frankly just don't measure up.
Of all the DE/track events I've done over the last ten years (about 20) Corvettes have made up from 10-25% of the entry list at the other clubs events. Why can't there be Corvette sponsored track events????
Why are Corvette clubs so into quilt socials, car shows, and well more quilt socials?
Why do we have to depend on the PCA, BMWCCA, MFBA, Audi club, Mazda clubs, Ferrari clubs, etc., etc. to put on DE's and track events?
I know the NCCC does auto x but they are not track events and frankly just don't measure up.
Of all the DE/track events I've done over the last ten years (about 20) Corvettes have made up from 10-25% of the entry list at the other clubs events. Why can't there be Corvette sponsored track events????
06-20-2007, 11:24 PM
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After owning Porsches since 1977 I bought a C5 in 2000 and now have a C6Z06. The last 7 years have been the most satisfying years of my automotive experiences but I have to wonder about the one thing that I have been really disappointed in.
Why are Corvette clubs so into quilt socials, car shows, and well more quilt socials?
Why do we have to depend on the PCA, BMWCCA, MFBA, Audi club, Mazda clubs, Ferrari clubs, etc., etc. to put on DE's and track events?
I know the NCCC does auto x but they are not track events and frankly just don't measure up.
Of all the DE/track events I've done over the last ten years (about 20) Corvettes have made up from 10-25% of the entry list at the other clubs events. Why can't there be Corvette sponsored track events????
Why are Corvette clubs so into quilt socials, car shows, and well more quilt socials?
Why do we have to depend on the PCA, BMWCCA, MFBA, Audi club, Mazda clubs, Ferrari clubs, etc., etc. to put on DE's and track events?
I know the NCCC does auto x but they are not track events and frankly just don't measure up.
Of all the DE/track events I've done over the last ten years (about 20) Corvettes have made up from 10-25% of the entry list at the other clubs events. Why can't there be Corvette sponsored track events????
The other groups you mention also have cars that are designed to be driven hard on curvy roads at very high speeds for long periods of time which Corvettes are not. Those cars have a hard core racing heritage from the beginning, which is not true of Corvettes. Ferrari was a race team first and only built road cars to pay for racing. Corvettes up to the C4 were a lot like Harley's - useless but for flashy cruising and not serious race cars. The few that competed were seriously modified road cars in those years, the Ferraris and Porsches were purpose built race cars. Take a look at the postings in C5 or C6, they talk about mods like upholstery and light covers and exhaust tips and such , as if anyone cares. Every Porsche guy I know makes tons of real mechanical mods and thinks nothing of it all in the pursuit of speed and not appearance.
These cars are also quite fragile at the track - read all the posts about mechanical issues. A new Turbo Carrera can be pummeled at the track for hours with no ill effect. Ask me how I know..
It is a different crowd - look how many times the insurance for HPDE has come up.. none of the guys I track with could care less about that because they know that :
a: they won't get carried away to that extenet because wrecking at an open track means you are a dunce
b: it is their problem if they do - so suck it up
You will probably not be able to find enough Corvette guys in your area to make a day of it because they don't buy the car for the purpose of hard driving at the track except for the guys in this forum section..
I am 100% with you that Autocross is a joke and bears no resemblance to motorsports
Face it, a lot of Corvette guys bought the car to show off. There is a car show/gathering at a shopping mall in Scottsdale where as many as 200 cool pre 1975 cars arrive every Saturday. In the Corvette row most of the cars are C5's or C6's. Who would bring a brand new car to a car show made up of mostly 60's muscle cars and hot rods? Track the car? sure....
Last edited by Tintin; 06-20-2007 at 11:37 PM.
06-21-2007, 12:25 AM
#4
Le Mans Master
I don't know about where you are from, but we have the Corvette Days events out west here and those events are always sell-outs at 80-100 cars.
Sure it might be nice to have a Corvette Club, but I have a good time going to Porsche events, Alfa Romeo events, Viper Days, etc. and pummeling all of those makes.
And I disagree that Corvettes are fragile. I drive the **** out of my car and with few exceptions she just goes and goes and goes when other cars are quiting, braking or damaged in off-road excursions. I have had several 100 MPH hour off-road excursions and 'ol #22 seems to hold up just fine. I have been hit twice and I have always come out the better of the two. Just keep me away from those 100 MPH cones... that is another matter....
Fastest regards,
Oli
Sure it might be nice to have a Corvette Club, but I have a good time going to Porsche events, Alfa Romeo events, Viper Days, etc. and pummeling all of those makes.
And I disagree that Corvettes are fragile. I drive the **** out of my car and with few exceptions she just goes and goes and goes when other cars are quiting, braking or damaged in off-road excursions. I have had several 100 MPH hour off-road excursions and 'ol #22 seems to hold up just fine. I have been hit twice and I have always come out the better of the two. Just keep me away from those 100 MPH cones... that is another matter....
Fastest regards,
Oli
06-21-2007, 12:38 AM
#5
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The problem is that most Corvette owners are waxers. They are afraid their car will melt if it gets wet. It wasn't always that way. There was a time when they were just cars and treated that way. During the 60s they were beat on just like all of the other muscle cars. The Vette with its handling and power advantages was on top of the heap at that time. I bought my first Vette a 69 Big Block Roadster in 1972. The engine had been blown twice by then. I had it for 4 years and blew the engine once myself. I drove it to work everyday winter and summer and drove it hard.
As for the cars themselves you probably have found out they are no less reliable than other makes although you can't get people driving other makes to admit that. One person I know (who may be lurking) advertised his C5 Z06 for sale at various Porsche and Mustang events by stating "If you want to go faster buy this car".
As for NCCC some of their clubs run HPDEs in various parts of the country and the current rule book was written so the NCCC liability insurance would cover the events (if its in the rule book its covered). You should have been at the meetings where this was discussed as some of the regional competition directors were vehemently against letting people pass at HPDEs. NCCC also does high speed events (Solo I type) at various tracks around the country and will be running one today at Nashville Speedway as part of their convention. The problem with these events is your on track time is limited due to the nature of the event.
As for autocrosses it depends on who sets it up. Some can be quite challenging with some reasonable speeds.
Bill
As for the cars themselves you probably have found out they are no less reliable than other makes although you can't get people driving other makes to admit that. One person I know (who may be lurking) advertised his C5 Z06 for sale at various Porsche and Mustang events by stating "If you want to go faster buy this car".
As for NCCC some of their clubs run HPDEs in various parts of the country and the current rule book was written so the NCCC liability insurance would cover the events (if its in the rule book its covered). You should have been at the meetings where this was discussed as some of the regional competition directors were vehemently against letting people pass at HPDEs. NCCC also does high speed events (Solo I type) at various tracks around the country and will be running one today at Nashville Speedway as part of their convention. The problem with these events is your on track time is limited due to the nature of the event.
As for autocrosses it depends on who sets it up. Some can be quite challenging with some reasonable speeds.
Bill
06-21-2007, 12:56 AM
#6
Le Mans Master
In my experience and I am certain that some of the guys on this part of the forum may disagree, Corvette guys think of their cars as some sort of shrine. They spend a lot of time polishing their cars and very little time hammering them because they are afraid to scratch the paint. Take a look at how many C5 automatics there are.. it does not work like a Tiptronic...
The other groups you mention also have cars that are designed to be driven hard on curvy roads at very high speeds for long periods of time which Corvettes are not. Those cars have a hard core racing heritage from the beginning, which is not true of Corvettes. Ferrari was a race team first and only built road cars to pay for racing. Corvettes up to the C4 were a lot like Harley's - useless but for flashy cruising and not serious race cars. The few that competed were seriously modified road cars in those years, the Ferraris and Porsches were purpose built race cars. Take a look at the postings in C5 or C6, they talk about mods like upholstery and light covers and exhaust tips and such , as if anyone cares. Every Porsche guy I know makes tons of real mechanical mods and thinks nothing of it all in the pursuit of speed and not appearance.
These cars are also quite fragile at the track - read all the posts about mechanical issues. A new Turbo Carrera can be pummeled at the track for hours with no ill effect. Ask me how I know..
It is a different crowd - look how many times the insurance for HPDE has come up.. none of the guys I track with could care less about that because they know that :
a: they won't get carried away to that extenet because wrecking at an open track means you are a dunce
b: it is their problem if they do - so suck it up
You will probably not be able to find enough Corvette guys in your area to make a day of it because they don't buy the car for the purpose of hard driving at the track except for the guys in this forum section..
I am 100% with you that Autocross is a joke and bears no resemblance to motorsports
Face it, a lot of Corvette guys bought the car to show off. There is a car show/gathering at a shopping mall in Scottsdale where as many as 200 cool pre 1975 cars arrive every Saturday. In the Corvette row most of the cars are C5's or C6's. Who would bring a brand new car to a car show made up of mostly 60's muscle cars and hot rods? Track the car? sure....
The other groups you mention also have cars that are designed to be driven hard on curvy roads at very high speeds for long periods of time which Corvettes are not. Those cars have a hard core racing heritage from the beginning, which is not true of Corvettes. Ferrari was a race team first and only built road cars to pay for racing. Corvettes up to the C4 were a lot like Harley's - useless but for flashy cruising and not serious race cars. The few that competed were seriously modified road cars in those years, the Ferraris and Porsches were purpose built race cars. Take a look at the postings in C5 or C6, they talk about mods like upholstery and light covers and exhaust tips and such , as if anyone cares. Every Porsche guy I know makes tons of real mechanical mods and thinks nothing of it all in the pursuit of speed and not appearance.
These cars are also quite fragile at the track - read all the posts about mechanical issues. A new Turbo Carrera can be pummeled at the track for hours with no ill effect. Ask me how I know..
It is a different crowd - look how many times the insurance for HPDE has come up.. none of the guys I track with could care less about that because they know that :
a: they won't get carried away to that extenet because wrecking at an open track means you are a dunce
b: it is their problem if they do - so suck it up
You will probably not be able to find enough Corvette guys in your area to make a day of it because they don't buy the car for the purpose of hard driving at the track except for the guys in this forum section..
I am 100% with you that Autocross is a joke and bears no resemblance to motorsports
Face it, a lot of Corvette guys bought the car to show off. There is a car show/gathering at a shopping mall in Scottsdale where as many as 200 cool pre 1975 cars arrive every Saturday. In the Corvette row most of the cars are C5's or C6's. Who would bring a brand new car to a car show made up of mostly 60's muscle cars and hot rods? Track the car? sure....
Is there an Arizona on the planet Mercury? Surely you're not from THIS planet.
06-21-2007, 01:20 AM
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06-21-2007, 05:13 AM
#9
Drifting
I don't know about where you are from, but we have the Corvette Days events out west here and those events are always sell-outs at 80-100 cars.
Sure it might be nice to have a Corvette Club, but I have a good time going to Porsche events, Alfa Romeo events, Viper Days, etc. and pummeling all of those makes.
And I disagree that Corvettes are fragile. I drive the **** out of my car and with few exceptions she just goes and goes and goes when other cars are quiting, braking or damaged in off-road excursions. I have had several 100 MPH hour off-road excursions and 'ol #22 seems to hold up just fine. I have been hit twice and I have always come out the better of the two. Just keep me away from those 100 MPH cones... that is another matter....
Fastest regards,
Oli
Sure it might be nice to have a Corvette Club, but I have a good time going to Porsche events, Alfa Romeo events, Viper Days, etc. and pummeling all of those makes.
And I disagree that Corvettes are fragile. I drive the **** out of my car and with few exceptions she just goes and goes and goes when other cars are quiting, braking or damaged in off-road excursions. I have had several 100 MPH hour off-road excursions and 'ol #22 seems to hold up just fine. I have been hit twice and I have always come out the better of the two. Just keep me away from those 100 MPH cones... that is another matter....
Fastest regards,
Oli
with all the above, except I haven't had any car-to-car hits yet. I'm just doing DEs, not actual racing like Oli.Every year, we have 1 or 2 Corvette-only DE's at Thunderhill, and 2 to 4 at Spring Mountain. All of them are sold out or close to it. And doesn't the National Corvette Museum do a Corvette-only track day somewhere in the mid-west or the east coast?
Surely, there are other Corvette-only DE's around the country, right?
Bob
06-21-2007, 06:47 AM
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Yup. We like being the underdog 
Actully there are Corvette HPDEs. Not as many as PCA or BMW.
Our National Corvette Museum Event on July 2-3 at VIR has 125 students, and 65 instructors. Sold out in an Hour forty-five minutes back on Jan 22.
Northern Virginia Corvette Club does events at Summit Point WV too. There is a Mich Club that does Corvette days as well.
Actully there are Corvette HPDEs. Not as many as PCA or BMW.
Our National Corvette Museum Event on July 2-3 at VIR has 125 students, and 65 instructors. Sold out in an Hour forty-five minutes back on Jan 22.
Northern Virginia Corvette Club does events at Summit Point WV too. There is a Mich Club that does Corvette days as well.
06-21-2007, 07:50 AM
#11
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Up here in the NE, I see alot of Vettes running, usually second in quantity only to Spec Miatas. At the last SCDA event at NHIS I saw a C2, C3, several C4's, alots of C5's and even 4 C6ZO6's. The BMWCCA events are for sissys and know of more than one Vette driver that has been asked to leave because they were doing a 1:17 lap at NHIS (which is a decent L98 C4 time but 5-7 seconds slower than a Hoosier shod C5ZO6). I think you simply need to find a different venue, and you will see alot of them. In any case, welcome to our part of the sport!
06-21-2007, 08:06 AM
#12
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You are so wrong it's scary. Great AutoXers have an amazing amount of car control. They have a very good ability to place their car better then most. 2 of the best RR drivers I have met are amazing autoX guy's. I wish I had taken more interest in AutoX early on. I much prefer road racing but those guys can freakin' drive.
06-21-2007, 08:39 AM
#13
Le Mans Master
After owning Porsches since 1977 I bought a C5 in 2000 and now have a C6Z06. The last 7 years have been the most satisfying years of my automotive experiences but I have to wonder about the one thing that I have been really disappointed in.
Why are Corvette clubs so into quilt socials, car shows, and well more quilt socials?
Why do we have to depend on the PCA, BMWCCA, MFBA, Audi club, Mazda clubs, Ferrari clubs, etc., etc. to put on DE's and track events?
I know the NCCC does auto x but they are not track events and frankly just don't measure up.
Of all the DE/track events I've done over the last ten years (about 20) Corvettes have made up from 10-25% of the entry list at the other clubs events. Why can't there be Corvette sponsored track events????
Why are Corvette clubs so into quilt socials, car shows, and well more quilt socials?
Why do we have to depend on the PCA, BMWCCA, MFBA, Audi club, Mazda clubs, Ferrari clubs, etc., etc. to put on DE's and track events?
I know the NCCC does auto x but they are not track events and frankly just don't measure up.
Of all the DE/track events I've done over the last ten years (about 20) Corvettes have made up from 10-25% of the entry list at the other clubs events. Why can't there be Corvette sponsored track events????
I think the real reason is that there is not a national Corvette club. Even the NCCC is just a grouping of individual clubs. As such, there is no national newsletter/magazine that, at the very minimum, promotes both the marque and events for the marque. I know BMWCCA, and possibly PCA, get manufacturer's support (maybe not financial, but promotional, technical, etc.); since there's no national organization, Vettes get zip.
And, take what TinTin says with, um, a grain of salt. Autocross is a very challenging, competitive (can't say that about DEs), and about as safe as possible for a motorsport event. It's also usually a lot more available across the country, especially if you open up to groups other than SCCA or NCCC sanctioned events.
Here's a video of our last autocross. TinTin, if you will, please find the boring/loser/can't drive part of this course for me that a track obviously provides.
Have a good one,
Mike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE1HGUl6po4
06-21-2007, 09:02 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
While there is a justifiable place in many people's minds for autox, HPDEs and etc, busting cones, passing on straights only, or worrying about insurance is NOT racing.
There are many reasons why only a few actually race "wheel to wheel", but there is only (1) ONE definition of racing - "getting there first when the flag drops".
No cones, no "passing zones", no cool down laps to bring temps down, no excuses about how many heat cycles your tires have etc etc etc.
Not everyone has the time, $$$, or drive to race wheel to wheel, but I can see why TinTin describes some as "posers".
EE
06-21-2007, 09:07 AM
#16
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After owning Porsches since 1977 I bought a C5 in 2000 and now have a C6Z06. The last 7 years have been the most satisfying years of my automotive experiences but I have to wonder about the one thing that I have been really disappointed in.
Why are Corvette clubs so into quilt socials, car shows, and well more quilt socials?
Why do we have to depend on the PCA, BMWCCA, MFBA, Audi club, Mazda clubs, Ferrari clubs, etc., etc. to put on DE's and track events?
I know the NCCC does auto x but they are not track events and frankly just don't measure up.
Of all the DE/track events I've done over the last ten years (about 20) Corvettes have made up from 10-25% of the entry list at the other clubs events. Why can't there be Corvette sponsored track events????
Why are Corvette clubs so into quilt socials, car shows, and well more quilt socials?
Why do we have to depend on the PCA, BMWCCA, MFBA, Audi club, Mazda clubs, Ferrari clubs, etc., etc. to put on DE's and track events?
I know the NCCC does auto x but they are not track events and frankly just don't measure up.
Of all the DE/track events I've done over the last ten years (about 20) Corvettes have made up from 10-25% of the entry list at the other clubs events. Why can't there be Corvette sponsored track events????
06-21-2007, 09:08 AM
#17
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There are waxers amongst all makes and models of cars... but don't forget to consider the volumes involved. GM makes 30,000 Corvettes a year... there's a bunch out there. So figure 90% of the owners are waxers accross the board and that leaves you with a bunch more waxer vette owners than Porsche or Bimmer guys.
Plus... the Corvette is an american icon, something many people dream of having, so I really don't fault the waxer I understand the desire to have a pristine piece of history/artwork/heritage. For me... I want both... my current car is a track/fun car, but I will get a 2nd corvette to stare at all pretty in my garage... right next to my tire-goober dotted track rat.
Plus... the Corvette is an american icon, something many people dream of having, so I really don't fault the waxer I understand the desire to have a pristine piece of history/artwork/heritage. For me... I want both... my current car is a track/fun car, but I will get a 2nd corvette to stare at all pretty in my garage... right next to my tire-goober dotted track rat.
06-21-2007, 09:11 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
There are waxers amongst all makes and models of cars
GM makes 30,000 Corvettes a year
figure 90% of the owners are waxers accross the board and that leaves you with a bunch more waxer vette owners than Porsche or Bimmer guys.
don't fault the waxer I understand the desire to have a pristine piece of history/artwork/heritage. For me... I want both
06-21-2007, 09:26 AM
#19
Le Mans Master
Aside from NASA events, the most prevalent clubs that put on track events around my area are the BMWCCA and the PCA. The local chapters of these clubs stage the event, and, luckily for us, they allow us to participate. It is the national offices of these marques that put the programs together and it is up to the local chapters to execute from that template.
IMHO, this is the point at which the Corvette hobby misses the boat. I was a member of the NCCC and never really understood what they did (except take my dues). There isn't a national HPDE template created by the NCCC for the local clubs to use. If there is a HPDE event, it has to be entirely from the local level. Sure, the NCCC has some form of high speed track event, but it’s nothing like a HPDE, it's mainly a time trial, or at least that's what I've read.
Thank goodness the NCM stepped into the breach and has partially filled the void. Without them and the work of Roc, Tom, Adam and the Museum staff, many Vette guys would still be stuck at a charity car show at the local shopping center instead of on track when the NCM puts on a HPDE at a track near them.
As Gary noted, some of the BMWCCA chapters are kind of particular in their rules enforcement, but I'm thankful they are there for us since I have attended many of their events. They don't like people to stray from their expectations of safety and that is certainly their prerogative since they have the responsibility of everyone's safety. I’ve never felt unwelcomed at any local PCA or BMWCCA event I have attended Sure, as in any group there are some ******, but, by and large, I have as many friends in these groups as I do Corvette friends. I’ve attended their instructor clinics, and support their clubs as well as I can as an outside. Hell, in fact, I’m a dues paying member of both the PCA and BMWCCA. When I am at one of their events, I feel like an adopted child, but enjoy myself as though I’m one of them. I just have to be ready to take a lot of verbal punches, but I usually give as good as I take.
IMHO, until the NCCC creates the template, and offers a lot of advice and administrative help to the local Corvette clubs, we will have to mooch off of the kindness of all the other marques who know how to put these HPDE's together.
In the meantime, find the local clubs (PCA, BMWCCA, Mazda, Mustang, etc.) that do the track events and support their efforts since you will be the beneficiary, and, also, you’ll become an ambassador for the rest of us Corvette guys.
IMHO, this is the point at which the Corvette hobby misses the boat. I was a member of the NCCC and never really understood what they did (except take my dues). There isn't a national HPDE template created by the NCCC for the local clubs to use. If there is a HPDE event, it has to be entirely from the local level. Sure, the NCCC has some form of high speed track event, but it’s nothing like a HPDE, it's mainly a time trial, or at least that's what I've read.
Thank goodness the NCM stepped into the breach and has partially filled the void. Without them and the work of Roc, Tom, Adam and the Museum staff, many Vette guys would still be stuck at a charity car show at the local shopping center instead of on track when the NCM puts on a HPDE at a track near them.
As Gary noted, some of the BMWCCA chapters are kind of particular in their rules enforcement, but I'm thankful they are there for us since I have attended many of their events. They don't like people to stray from their expectations of safety and that is certainly their prerogative since they have the responsibility of everyone's safety. I’ve never felt unwelcomed at any local PCA or BMWCCA event I have attended Sure, as in any group there are some ******, but, by and large, I have as many friends in these groups as I do Corvette friends. I’ve attended their instructor clinics, and support their clubs as well as I can as an outside. Hell, in fact, I’m a dues paying member of both the PCA and BMWCCA. When I am at one of their events, I feel like an adopted child, but enjoy myself as though I’m one of them. I just have to be ready to take a lot of verbal punches, but I usually give as good as I take.
IMHO, until the NCCC creates the template, and offers a lot of advice and administrative help to the local Corvette clubs, we will have to mooch off of the kindness of all the other marques who know how to put these HPDE's together.
In the meantime, find the local clubs (PCA, BMWCCA, Mazda, Mustang, etc.) that do the track events and support their efforts since you will be the beneficiary, and, also, you’ll become an ambassador for the rest of us Corvette guys.
06-21-2007, 10:50 AM
#20
Melting Slicks
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Well said, Jody !!! I've instructed with POC, Viper Days, Triangle Z, BMW Peachtree, BMW Alabama, Chin, Track Quest, Car Guys, SCCA, PCA, Carolina Mustang, NASA, NCM, and others. With the exception of NCM (National Corvette Museum)... all of these clubs are either a different marque, or open D E clubs.
The local Corvette clubs here in Georgia... don't do D E Events. Our local NCCC club's Competition Director won't even come out for them. They concentrate on diners, shows, cruises, and some auto-cross, with an occasional high speed solo event.
On the other hand, ALL the clubs I run with have many instructors who drive Z06's... so we do have ample opportunity to get on the track.Cya @ the track,
Trumper