Prankster

So I got my C6 last year and since then I have really started getting into it..cruising..spirited driving..drag racing (at the strip). So I thought I would give the track a shot too.

I actually went behind "enemy" lines and went to the Motor City Viper Owners track day at Gingerman (South Haven, MI) last weekend (My friend has a '94 Viper RT/10). All I can say is..HOLY S***!!! It was so much fun I can't wait for another!!!!

Here are some of the pics..I'm only in a couple pics, but there were 2 other C5 Z06 Corvettes representing as well. All of the Viper guys were very cool and genuine "car guys"..we all had a great time!!

http://homepage.mac.com/bloose/MCVO-Gingerman/

http://www.gearupsix.com/gallery.html?gallery=Cars

As I'm getting more and more educated on the whole track thing, I do have one little concern..exactly how much brake damage did I do?

I'm a little worried because my brakes are shot..it takes pushing the pedal down about 50-75% to brake now, when it was pretty responsive before. This happened about lap 35 when it was a noticably longer pedal travel. I know I need to change out my brake fluid, will this solve my problem, or are my pads shot already? I have 6k mi on the car, other than this event, pretty easy use (outside of a few drag strip trips).

I haven't really had a chance to investigate further..I have been travelling all week on business.

Thanks for your advice guys,


pkstr

robvuk

It sounds like you've boiled the fluid. Replace with DOT4. Check your pads. Was this a one day event or two? If it was one day, I doubt you wore out your pads just yet at Gingerman. Check your rotors for cracks and get yourself some good pads. Those are consumable items and should be expected to be replaced. Not a big deal. Everybody does that maintenance at the track. Part of the cost of having fun. WELCOME!

Bill Dearborn

You probably tapered the pads pretty badly. The pad taper along with piston knock back increases the pedal travel considerably. Although it is possible that you boiled the fluid I bet if you bleed the brakes before replacing the pads the problem will still be there. The effects of pad taper seem to reduce with daily driving over a period of time so the pedal may come back up slowly. You can wait for this to happen and just double pump the pedal to get it high enough while waiting or change the pads.

Here is a picture of tapered pads that cause a long pedal.



These were installed in the right front caliper. The ones on the left side had an opposite taper.

Bill

heavychevy

After 35 laps you should expect to have to replace something. If you are going to do this more often then I would suggest Motul or Castrol SRF, especially if you have long pedal, ATE blue still boils pretty easily.

Also try and get some cooling for your brakes. And better pads help you stop better but usually create more heat in doing so, so you better make sure you have adequate cooling which is the one part about sports cars that no one seems to address.

69427

Congratulations! I'm glad you had fun at Gingerman. It's a great place. I used to live in Indiana, and I would haul the Corvette up to Gingerman two or three times a month during the summer. I miss the convenient location of that track, and their reasonable rates. I'm now in Florida, trying to get the cars back together, and fully expecting tracks in this area to be significantly less reasonable WRT entry fees.

AUTO_X_AL

Gingerman is very hard on brakes. What happened to you is probably a result of pad taper and boiling fluid put together. You can get the brakes pretty hot there and if you get them too hot the pads go in a hurry.

Thats a fun track and it's pretty safe.

Al

xsiveone

Congrats! You broke your cherry.

Gingerman was my first track experience too. What you most likely did was boil the fluid and get air in the lines. I'm willing to bet that if you just bleed the brakes, the pedal will come back just like mine did.

If you're going to track your car again, kill two birds with one stone, flush the system and then add DOT4 fluid.

Aardwolf

Glad you had fun! I am curious, how did the older Viper do? Was the performance of your car and his, similar?

Kinkajou

I thought that you could only use DOT 3. I understand that DOT 4 can damage seals and rubber components as well as affect the ABS system.

What has been your experience? Did you have to flush using alcohol or just subtitute DOT 3 to DOT4 ?

Aardwolf

You may use DOT 3,4, or 5.1 but not 5 witch is silicone.

xsiveone

DOT4 is fine. That's what most all of the track guys use here.

When I changed my fluid the first time to DOT4 from the OE DOT3 fluid, I had it flushed at the dealer using the Tech2, so they could open the ABS system to get all the fluid out. A lot of guys don't go to that trouble though because there's not much fluid in the ABS system. It gets filtered out after a while anyway after you've done a couple of flushes.

Prankster

Cool..I'm going to change out the fluid this weekend, and see if anything gets better. I'll also inspect the pads and see if I can see any tapering. I'm curious how much pad I used.

Is there anything you can do to stop/reduce pad taper? Better pads? Better brakes? It sounds like it's the norm after running 30+ laps on the track.

I'm sure this was probably magnified because I was a bit jerky (too much gas/brake at times). I rode with an instructor and the main areas I need to improve are smoothness and taking better lines..lot of work to do, but its so much fun

Thanks!


pkstr

Prankster

It actually did better than expected..he had just got a new set of good tires, so I'm sure that had something to do with it. The straight line performance is close..in a drag race it's pretty much a drivers race. It was tough to gauge performance on the track, at least this time. We would usually catch the person in front of us and get bunched up. I wish the track was a little more open at times..we had quite a few cars out there!

Matt

NoOne

Hey if your interested we're running at Grattan on the 9th of July.

$165 for the day, 8 20 minute sessions, 15 cars on track, lunch, ambulance and corner workers provided.

I had a spot open up if your interested. About an hour closer than Gingerman and a far more fun and technical track.

xsiveone

I'm thinking that a fluid change and bleed will take care of it.

I doubt that you tapered the pads that quick as a beginner unless you were riding the brakes around the track.

Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about pad taper with the stock calipers.

At Gingerman, you can just about drive the entire track in 3rd gear. I'd just leave it in 3rd gear for a session and concentrate on your lines. Don't worry about keeping up with other drivers. Leave your ego in the paddock and learn how to drive your car and the track properly even if you're slow at first.

Scooter70

If you have fun at Eric's event at Grattan event, we 2 spots left open for the 3Balls Racing event there on July 28th. It's even $15 cheaper and includes lunch, water, Gatorade, and a chance to camp out with us the night before.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1722251

AUTO_X_AL

I don't ride the brakes but I got them hot enough to glow at Gingerman and took a brand new ste of DTC 70's down to 50-60% at one day at Gingerman. My longest session was about 8 laps before I got em' hot enough to glow. Most people don't run them that hard but I was trying to keep up with a pro and learn the line. Must be the autocrosser in me going after every little bit that I can. Not probable but entirely possible that hot pads could have worn/tapered a bit funny.
The event I attended was a NCCC high speed event with some lapping afterwards.

Prankster

I was able to work on my car this weekend..I bled the brakes and put new fluid in. It was pretty dark, so it really needed it!! With that being said, it looks like some of my braking problems were caused by that.

I also checked the pads..this gets a double They were tapered pretty bad..at least in my eyes. I should have took a few pics but the digital camera was dead. I still have a lot of pad left, but the ends are tapered quite a bit. For about the middle 80% of the pad it's nice and flat, but the 10% on each end is tapered a lot. I'm assuming this is what your talking about?

With the fluid change, it still doesn't feel solid..there is still a decent about of travel. Should I be worried, or just let the pads wear down a bit and it will come back?

Looking back, I'm pretty sure I probably rode the brakes a bit..which caused excessive taper and boiled fluid..it looks like I need to improve my braking technique

Can't wait to go practice again I gotta check out some of the track events and see what dates work best.

Thanks!!


pkstr

Acropora

The brakes should always feel solid. Welcome to the slippery slope!

Pumba

Matt,

I recently had some track time at Gingerman, Grattan, and Waterford. I also follow the Touring Challenge for Corvettes races - Last weekend's race was at Nelson Ledges.

From those experiences I have done the following to my Z06:

- Wilwood 600F fluid - Fully flushed once a year and a mini-flush after each track day.
- Doug Rippie Motorsports front brake cooling ducts.
- Hawk DTC70 front and rear pads, with Loc-Tite Copper anti-seize compound on the tips of the pad to prevent their sticking. Its amazing how much more aggressively these pads stop my Z06 versus the OEM pads.

Good luck with your next track day.

.