turbo50mike

Just to preface this, I bought my 04 Z and it came with a BK Harness bar in it. It seems to do the trick, and I like it. A friend of mine who has a Saleen Mustang, liked my harness bar, and decided to look into getting one for his car. So he searched on 'The Corral' (website for Mustangs, etc...) for a recent 'harness bar' thread to see what bar everyone was using/recommending in the Mustangs and found this.....

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=922974

These guys seem VERY against the harness bar, and after I did some searching, I didn't find the same train of thought on this site relating to harness bars.

Just trying to get some veteran Corvette guys thoughts on the harness bar vs roll bar debate.

TIA -

MJB

VetteDrmr

Actually, if you do a search on "roll over" you should find quite a bit of conversation on the topic. Let's see if I can summarize:

1. Harness bars do *not* offer any roll-over protection. Opinion seems to favor greater survivability in the stock harnesses for roll-over protection in covertible cars.
2. Harness bars are deemed adequate for autocross, as C5 rollovers are unheard-of in an autocross environment. Roll over discussions focus mainly on HPDEs and such.
3. The B-pillar roll hoop in the C5 coupes and FRCs is pretty sturdy: no one has shown definitive proof of the 3hoop collapsing in a roll over. There was one severe end-over-end accident that damaged the roll hoop, but even then it wasn't a full collapse.
4. The A-pillar seems to be the most concern, as in most roll overs the windshield frame appears to buckle fairly often. *However*, I've not seen any info as to how much that would contribute to head injuries.

So, I think the corral folks are pretty much on target. I don't think the Mustangs have as much roll-over protection as the C5 coupes/FRCs.

HTH, and have a good one,
Mike

Just J

All the BMW CCA instructors I have talked to about this agree that most 4 point harnesses (or 5, or 6) without a roll cage or roll bar are dangerous in the event of a roll-over.

There are some harnesses (like the Schroth), that have special "extension" areas in the right shoulder strap where the material is folded and sewn in a way that it unfolds under impact stress levels and extends the strap enough that your body can rotate and fall sideways enough to stay under a collapsing roof.

Personally, I'm sticking with the stock belts unless and until I do a roll cage and a race seat that allows a proper 5 point harness, one with a correctly positioned anti-submarining strap.

AU N EGL

4 point harness should never be used, even with a roll cage.

The harness system, harness bar questions will always be around.

The harness system mounting and routing though the proper seat holes, and proper mounting to the cars frame or steel roll bar is also a common topic.

Harness mounting positions. There are plenty of poorly mounting harness systems as well. SHoulder hanesses too low or to high in relation to the shoulder. Seat harness belts, not mounted to the frame of the car, nor at the proper angle acorss the hip. Sub belts not mounted to the car frame and the improper angle to the seat and buckle or cam lock. check the SCCA or NASA General Competition Rules or technical rules books.

Several national clubs will be getting more strict come 2008. No harness system without a race seat, No race seat without roll cage. Not roll bar but roll cage. No roll cage without SCCA, NASA, PCA, BMWCC, PBOC or other race organization tech inspection log books.

HPDEs and track days are getting more and more popular. PPl using R compounds, for more grip, then harness systems to hold them in place. But not with the proper roll cage and added saftey equimpment. This may be why so many clubs do not allow Beginer, Novice and some intermediate student groups to use R compound tires. Street tires only. Saftey first.

The other factor is motorsports is about personal responsibilty. It is your car, your safty, and you did sign a release to get on to the track.

If YOU do not feel safe, dont do it. If you have to THINK about doing it, dont do it.

There is no national HPDE orgainzation for all the car clubs, which I think is a good thing. Each major club tends to look at other clubs, with PCA and BMWCC being the leaders as they are the largest car clubs.

We all need personally responsible for our actions and saftey. Saftey is not as sexy as Horse power moddifications or Sticky tires, but is essential to ours and eveyones lives.



PS. No club wants to have headlines, like we saw last year at WG PCA event and the Carrara GT crash out west.

VetteDrmr

Just once more for emphasis: The issue with harness bars has to do with HPDE (track) type usage, where the speeds are higher and when you lose control you tend to go off pavement onto grass/dirt, where the chances of tripping your car are significantly greater.

Autocross, usually run on some parking lot, doesn't have near the issues with roll overs that track events can have. In fact, I've never heard of a C5 (or any Vette, for that matter), that went over on its lid during an autocross.

Have a good one,
Mike

turbo50mike

Thanks for the responses. I guess it's not as hot a topic here because the Z06 has a stronger roof structure.

MJB

0C5stein

MSI's harness bar is actually designed to be the first part of a roll cage. It is 1.75 DOM to meet SCCA specs on a 3400# car, has a hoop with 4 bends (SCCA limits to no more than 4), has a lower horizontal that is where you wrap your shoulder harnesses, and has a diagonal to keep the hoop from deforming in the event of a roll over. Most of our customers start off with using it by itself (it is a bolt in) as a harness bar. Then they can add rear wedge bars running from the top of the hoop, down to the rear frame rails (weld in) to upgrade it to a roll bar. And if they require a cage, they can add the forward portion to create a full cage. I call it "eating the elephant, one bite at a time", as the great majority of my customers will never race their car, but there are several that have converted their street cars into racecars after a crash, or too much road rash from tracking the car or having a need for greater speed and safety.