What fails on a corvette racecar in endurance races?
05-07-2007, 04:59 PM
#1
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What fails on a corvette racecar in endurance races?
Our Endurance PorVette:
Porsche 944 turbo chassis
Camaro ls1 engine
Corvette C5
- torque tube, transaxle, rear dual a-arm suspension, 3.42 gears
I know there are pros like Lou and others who have tremendous experience road racing these cars. We will be running our car in the upcoming 25 Hours of Thunderhill Dec 1-2 this year and would really appreciate actual knowledge of weak areas that need shoring up. Ideally we'd love the C5R block with sequential tranny etc...but we are a bang for the buck team...not cheap, but also not made of money.
A few car pics at http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2640341
Car info currently:
2450lbs. without gas or driver
engine oil cooler (B&M)
exedy twin disk clutch
lightened aluminum flywheel
headers
straight pipe exhaust
LG dual tranny/dif. pump and 2 8x10"coolers
stock torque tube
tires - 12.5"slicks rear / 11.5" front
LG coilovers w/ 1000lb. or more spring rates
rear wing and front splitter
flat underbody in the works
Main areas of concern are:
Engine - stock now
- would stock hold up with a dry-sump system added and the
compression/leakdown being good?
- could we add a cam to this with the dry-sump?
- are forged internals really necessary?
Clutch - Exedy twin disk now
Brakes - stoptech currently
I think that the Vettes in this year's 24 Hours of Daytona had issues preventing their finish.
Thanks for the help!!
Steve
Porsche 944 turbo chassis
Camaro ls1 engine
Corvette C5
- torque tube, transaxle, rear dual a-arm suspension, 3.42 gears
I know there are pros like Lou and others who have tremendous experience road racing these cars. We will be running our car in the upcoming 25 Hours of Thunderhill Dec 1-2 this year and would really appreciate actual knowledge of weak areas that need shoring up. Ideally we'd love the C5R block with sequential tranny etc...but we are a bang for the buck team...not cheap, but also not made of money.
A few car pics at http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2640341
Car info currently:
2450lbs. without gas or driver
engine oil cooler (B&M)
exedy twin disk clutch
lightened aluminum flywheel
headers
straight pipe exhaust
LG dual tranny/dif. pump and 2 8x10"coolers
stock torque tube
tires - 12.5"slicks rear / 11.5" front
LG coilovers w/ 1000lb. or more spring rates
rear wing and front splitter
flat underbody in the works
Main areas of concern are:
Engine - stock now
- would stock hold up with a dry-sump system added and the
compression/leakdown being good?
- could we add a cam to this with the dry-sump?
- are forged internals really necessary?
Clutch - Exedy twin disk now
Brakes - stoptech currently
I think that the Vettes in this year's 24 Hours of Daytona had issues preventing their finish.
Thanks for the help!!
Steve
Last edited by Life is Good Racing; 05-07-2007 at 10:40 PM.
05-07-2007, 06:03 PM
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Why not just take one of these three and build the car around that?
But we do wish you great luck on your project.
05-07-2007, 06:06 PM
#3
First off, I'd like to say that your title is very missleading because you don't have a Corvette. Having a Corvette drivetrain with a Camaro engine doesn't make your car anywhere near a Corvette, but the good thing is that the drivetrain isn't where you will find your problems.
I have seen several people try to run your car/engine combination down here in South Florida and the problem seemed to always be with the cooling system. No matter how big the radiator was, the engine started overheating after a couple of laps. I would concentrate on that area first and with your power to weight ratio I would leave your engine as stock as possible for reliability. Don't run the car over 6,000 RPM and that will help to keep the engine temperature down.
Also the serpentine belt needs to be perfectly aligned or you will have problems with the belt coming off.
With the size of the tires you are running you might have problems with the half shafts breaking, so unless you get some stronger aftermarket ones you need to be smooth aplying power.
I think you are going to get a big push by running a 12.5 tire and might want to test with a 12 in the rear.
Just my thoughts having owned and raced both of these fine automobiles. Best of luck.
I have seen several people try to run your car/engine combination down here in South Florida and the problem seemed to always be with the cooling system. No matter how big the radiator was, the engine started overheating after a couple of laps. I would concentrate on that area first and with your power to weight ratio I would leave your engine as stock as possible for reliability. Don't run the car over 6,000 RPM and that will help to keep the engine temperature down.
Also the serpentine belt needs to be perfectly aligned or you will have problems with the belt coming off.
With the size of the tires you are running you might have problems with the half shafts breaking, so unless you get some stronger aftermarket ones you need to be smooth aplying power.
I think you are going to get a big push by running a 12.5 tire and might want to test with a 12 in the rear.
Just my thoughts having owned and raced both of these fine automobiles. Best of luck.
05-07-2007, 07:06 PM
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Thanks for the heads up guys.
fyi - We have already track tested this car for about 8 hours in addition to our first 3 hour endurance race. No real mechanical issues as of yet. As expected, it'll be a while until the chassis, brakes, aero etc. are tuned to our satisfaction, but so far so good!
Re cooling - I'm sorry that I forgot to say that I'm running the aftermarket Evans water pump with the smaller underpulley. The bypass inside the cooler is blocked (with a small hole) so with outside temps in the 80's I couldn't get the car above 190 degrees f. I actually need to put some tape over the grill to restrict air flow to the radiator to heat it up a bit. Does someone know optimal running temp? 200-210??
Re power - I agree that i don't want to go crazy on power, but the competition that I want to be able to beat are the 996 cup cars that could show up. We are very close now, so I think that with a cam or cam and dry-sump we could get there (plus tuning of course). If a 996 RSR or better shows up, we'll calmly watch them pass us and shoot for the next podium spot.
Re why?? -- haha, now that's the question, isn't it...well if starting over, I'd likely just convert a C5 Vette to an endurance car, as it's unquestionably the best bang for the buck in racing. That said, it's fun to do something new and different, plus I love the POC here on the West Coast(Porsche Owners Club) as a group of great drivers and guys to race with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's mighty expensive to get a C5 down to 2450lbs? Mine could even be a good bit lighter, but I went overkill on safety with the cage and other items. I like lightness in cars for reliability and fun of driving, and I just wasn't confident in the reliability of a similar HP 944 turbo engine for 25 hours, plus questioned the cv's and transaxle. The cost of a built Porsche transaxle would be about $6500+, and a built engine more than that. Can't beat a Vette for those areas.
fyi - We have already track tested this car for about 8 hours in addition to our first 3 hour endurance race. No real mechanical issues as of yet. As expected, it'll be a while until the chassis, brakes, aero etc. are tuned to our satisfaction, but so far so good!
Re cooling - I'm sorry that I forgot to say that I'm running the aftermarket Evans water pump with the smaller underpulley. The bypass inside the cooler is blocked (with a small hole) so with outside temps in the 80's I couldn't get the car above 190 degrees f. I actually need to put some tape over the grill to restrict air flow to the radiator to heat it up a bit. Does someone know optimal running temp? 200-210??
Re power - I agree that i don't want to go crazy on power, but the competition that I want to be able to beat are the 996 cup cars that could show up. We are very close now, so I think that with a cam or cam and dry-sump we could get there (plus tuning of course). If a 996 RSR or better shows up, we'll calmly watch them pass us and shoot for the next podium spot.
Re why?? -- haha, now that's the question, isn't it...well if starting over, I'd likely just convert a C5 Vette to an endurance car, as it's unquestionably the best bang for the buck in racing. That said, it's fun to do something new and different, plus I love the POC here on the West Coast(Porsche Owners Club) as a group of great drivers and guys to race with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's mighty expensive to get a C5 down to 2450lbs? Mine could even be a good bit lighter, but I went overkill on safety with the cage and other items. I like lightness in cars for reliability and fun of driving, and I just wasn't confident in the reliability of a similar HP 944 turbo engine for 25 hours, plus questioned the cv's and transaxle. The cost of a built Porsche transaxle would be about $6500+, and a built engine more than that. Can't beat a Vette for those areas.
Last edited by Life is Good Racing; 05-07-2007 at 07:38 PM.
05-07-2007, 07:33 PM
#5
With cooling out of the way, I'd say a mild Comp cam and a set of ported Z06 heads should get you another 100 reliable HP and you could still run on pump gas if you don't increase compression or timing. One of the cars we have runs that combination and it is very reliable and picked up 100 or more HP and we still run on pump gas.
Optimum temp is between 200-210
Dry sump is obviously the way to go, but you'll drop some $$ on the complete set up. Probably about $2,500
It'll be hard to beat a 996RSR or 996 cup car, but you won't be too far off their times.
Optimum temp is between 200-210
Dry sump is obviously the way to go, but you'll drop some $$ on the complete set up. Probably about $2,500
It'll be hard to beat a 996RSR or 996 cup car, but you won't be too far off their times.
05-07-2007, 08:36 PM
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I just got to love how simple and relatively inexpensive it is to get 100hp. Yes, I am trying to run on pump gas...will save a good bit compared to 25 Hours of race gas.
Yes, that's the range for a dry-sump I was figuring on. Is it correct that the HP gain is approx. 15rwhp in addition to the added reliability?
So how many race hours are you guys getting out of your stock engines? What goes?
I heard that one of the Daytona 24 hour Vettes had clutch issues. Any issues with the master or slave cylinders?
How about the rear CV's?
Yes, that's the range for a dry-sump I was figuring on. Is it correct that the HP gain is approx. 15rwhp in addition to the added reliability?
So how many race hours are you guys getting out of your stock engines? What goes?
I heard that one of the Daytona 24 hour Vettes had clutch issues. Any issues with the master or slave cylinders?
How about the rear CV's?
Last edited by Life is Good Racing; 05-07-2007 at 08:45 PM.
05-07-2007, 08:47 PM
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ps - A friend has an LS2 freshly rebuilt with forged internals and mild cam, that looks like he'll never use (a different project car of his). I could likely pick it up for a very good price, or trade for seat time in some races. The temption is to put the L92 heads on there for the bang for the buck value, but it sounds like this would push the power healthily into the 400's rwhp.
How do the stock tranny's/rear ends handle LS2 power levels with mild cam?
It's so easy to give in to the temptation to add power as it's relatively simple, yet I want to be sure the components can handle it. Brakes should be good, as they're 14"rotors front and I think about 13"rear. Tires should be ok.
How do the stock tranny's/rear ends handle LS2 power levels with mild cam?
It's so easy to give in to the temptation to add power as it's relatively simple, yet I want to be sure the components can handle it. Brakes should be good, as they're 14"rotors front and I think about 13"rear. Tires should be ok.
05-07-2007, 08:51 PM
#10
05-07-2007, 08:58 PM
#11
ps - A friend has an LS2 freshly rebuilt with forged internals and mild cam, that looks like he'll never use (a different project car of his). I could likely pick it up for a very good price, or trade for seat time in some races. The temption is to put the L92 heads on there for the bang for the buck value, but it sounds like this would push the power healthily into the 400's rwhp.
How do the stock tranny's/rear ends handle LS2 power levels with mild cam?
It's so easy to give in to the temptation to add power as it's relatively simple, yet I want to be sure the components can handle it. Brakes should be good, as they're 14"rotors front and I think about 13"rear. Tires should be ok.
How do the stock tranny's/rear ends handle LS2 power levels with mild cam?
It's so easy to give in to the temptation to add power as it's relatively simple, yet I want to be sure the components can handle it. Brakes should be good, as they're 14"rotors front and I think about 13"rear. Tires should be ok.
05-07-2007, 11:15 PM
#12
Former Vendor
Torque tube rubbers is a huge one. The rubber is a good thing, but like everything it has a life span. The rubber helps keep everything behide it happy.
Timming chains...
Power steering is also a huge thing in long long races. If you have any room put a cooler on it.
And all the other million parts
Sounds like a fast car
Randy
Timming chains...
Power steering is also a huge thing in long long races. If you have any room put a cooler on it.
And all the other million parts
Sounds like a fast car
Randy
05-08-2007, 12:57 AM
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Thanks for the added help Randy.
Are the torque tube rubbers something that can be replaced by themselves? I heard something that the torque tubes can't be rebuilt but need replacing with a new unit...is this true?
At this point, I'm running without the power steering, and the steering effort seems fine. We'll be testing how the steering is at Thunderhill soon during the June 3rd enduro.
...but about those other million parts...that's the mystery of it all...I saw on your website that you helped prep a car for the One Lap of America. Did it see enough miles to learn a few of these million parts??
Are the torque tube rubbers something that can be replaced by themselves? I heard something that the torque tubes can't be rebuilt but need replacing with a new unit...is this true?
At this point, I'm running without the power steering, and the steering effort seems fine. We'll be testing how the steering is at Thunderhill soon during the June 3rd enduro.
...but about those other million parts...that's the mystery of it all...I saw on your website that you helped prep a car for the One Lap of America. Did it see enough miles to learn a few of these million parts??
Last edited by Life is Good Racing; 05-08-2007 at 01:12 AM.
05-08-2007, 03:00 AM
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I have done that race a couple of times and the 12 hour before it as well. In order to be 1st in class you need to have a pretty good driving team that has mechanical sympathy and a fantastic car. You will break things like differentials in powerful cars because of the nature of the track and the fact that it seems to rain almost every year so there is lots of mud and stones on the track from all of the offs...
The key to finishing high up is to have an ultra reliable car that gets fabulous gas mileage. In the 2001 race we used a Honda Civic CX with 72 hp to come 3rd in class which was pretty good condsidering that we had less than half the horsepower of any car out there..... but we had an 8 gallon gas tank that lasted 3 hours almost to the minute so we had only 1/3 of the stops of everybody else. It was 6th overall of 75 in the rain by the way.. good drivers help
I would only worry about reliability if I were you. And brakes, tires and especially lights. Oh and a good heater/defroster because it is usually about 40-45 degrees and raining like hell about 11:30 pm so you will not be able to see without one. If you haven't run one of these night races and you are in NorCal NASA, ask my good friend and team mate Ralph Alexander about how to set the lights..
You are not going to beat the 911's IMHO as the Flying Lizard guys that seem to win all of the 25's use the same cars they run in the Rolex 24 and the same drivers and crew.. I think they won GT2 last year at Daytona.. There are a couple of other teams that test at the 25, Randy Pobst used to show every year and J Van Overbeek...
Go, have fun, spend a ton of money and stay on the track and you will place pretty well
The key to finishing high up is to have an ultra reliable car that gets fabulous gas mileage. In the 2001 race we used a Honda Civic CX with 72 hp to come 3rd in class which was pretty good condsidering that we had less than half the horsepower of any car out there..... but we had an 8 gallon gas tank that lasted 3 hours almost to the minute so we had only 1/3 of the stops of everybody else. It was 6th overall of 75 in the rain by the way.. good drivers help
I would only worry about reliability if I were you. And brakes, tires and especially lights. Oh and a good heater/defroster because it is usually about 40-45 degrees and raining like hell about 11:30 pm so you will not be able to see without one. If you haven't run one of these night races and you are in NorCal NASA, ask my good friend and team mate Ralph Alexander about how to set the lights..
You are not going to beat the 911's IMHO as the Flying Lizard guys that seem to win all of the 25's use the same cars they run in the Rolex 24 and the same drivers and crew.. I think they won GT2 last year at Daytona.. There are a couple of other teams that test at the 25, Randy Pobst used to show every year and J Van Overbeek...
Go, have fun, spend a ton of money and stay on the track and you will place pretty well
Last edited by Tintin; 05-08-2007 at 03:04 AM.
05-08-2007, 06:59 AM
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I would only worry about reliability if I were you. And brakes, tires and especially lights. Oh and a good heater/defroster because it is usually about 40-45 degrees and raining like hell about 11:30 pm so you will not be able to see without one.
...
Go, have fun, spend a ton of money and stay on the track and you will place pretty well
...
Go, have fun, spend a ton of money and stay on the track and you will place pretty well
good heater/ defroster?
40-45 degrees?
11:30 at night and you cant see out the window?
spend tons of money, stay on the track and HAVE FUN.
ahhhh racing, what an addiction, got to love it.
Good Luck
05-08-2007, 10:01 AM
#16
Former Vendor
Thanks for the added help Randy.
Are the torque tube rubbers something that can be replaced by themselves? I heard something that the torque tubes can't be rebuilt but need replacing with a new unit...is this true?
At this point, I'm running without the power steering, and the steering effort seems fine. We'll be testing how the steering is at Thunderhill soon during the June 3rd enduro.
...but about those other million parts...that's the mystery of it all...I saw on your website that you helped prep a car for the One Lap of America. Did it see enough miles to learn a few of these million parts??
Are the torque tube rubbers something that can be replaced by themselves? I heard something that the torque tubes can't be rebuilt but need replacing with a new unit...is this true?
At this point, I'm running without the power steering, and the steering effort seems fine. We'll be testing how the steering is at Thunderhill soon during the June 3rd enduro.
...but about those other million parts...that's the mystery of it all...I saw on your website that you helped prep a car for the One Lap of America. Did it see enough miles to learn a few of these million parts??
I have some rubbers couplers here at the shop. You just have to send the shaft out and get it balanced. Or send it all the way up here and we can take care of it.
Those other million parts, are all the sensors, water pump, coils, and stupid things like that.
Randy
05-08-2007, 12:20 PM
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I have done that race a couple of times and the 12 hour before it as well. In order to be 1st in class you need to have a pretty good driving team that has mechanical sympathy and a fantastic car. You will break things like differentials in powerful cars because of the nature of the track and the fact that it seems to rain almost every year so there is lots of mud and stones on the track from all of the offs..."
---------
So is RPM Transmissions a good source to look into a built tranny and differential? Other recommendations? Any on the West Coast?
"The key to finishing high up is to have an ultra reliable car that gets fabulous gas mileage. In the 2001 race we used a Honda Civic CX with 72 hp to come 3rd in class which was pretty good condsidering that we had less than half the horsepower of any car out there..... but we had an 8 gallon gas tank that lasted 3 hours almost to the minute so we had only 1/3 of the stops of everybody else. It was 6th overall of 75 in the rain by the way.. good drivers help "
_________
That's a great finish in that car indeed! It sounds like from the experienced endurance racers that they really stress the longer stints and keeping pit time to a minimum. We have a 34 gallon fuel cell, and in the few test days we've had, we seem to use about 13 gallons an hour. We will get more mileage data at the June 3rd enduro, but if it's close to this we can go over 2 hours, which is a long stint in such a fast car. We'll all need to train in advance to be able to go the long stints.
What gas mileage are you guys experiencing?
"I would only worry about reliability if I were you. And brakes, tires and especially lights. Oh and a good heater/defroster because it is usually about 40-45 degrees and raining like hell about 11:30 pm so you will not be able to see without one. If you haven't run one of these night races and you are in NorCal NASA, ask my good friend and team mate Ralph Alexander about how to set the lights.."
_________
Hmm, defroster eh? We did get a cloudy windshield at this last Buttonwillow night enduro when it rained. My hand was the defroster :-)...cheap but only so effective. It was a good challenge running on slicks in the rain, as we hadn't brought rain tires. Cars like yours were screaming by us on their rain tires and front wheel drive, while we were literally skating through the course. We ran the 25 Hour race a couple years ago in a different car, and so do have some night driving experience. At first it freaked me out as we were a slow car with blazing lights coming from behind and blinding me in mid-turn, but then I really liked it and ran a double stint from 1:15-3:45am.
"You are not going to beat the 911's IMHO as the Flying Lizard guys that seem to win all of the 25's use the same cars they run in the Rolex 24 and the same drivers and crew.. I think they won GT2 last year at Daytona.. There are a couple of other teams that test at the 25, Randy Pobst used to show every year and J Van Overbeek..."
________
Yep, for our first year at the race with this car, I'm not trying to develop the car to be able to beat such 911 RSR's like that, however if a 996 or 993 Cup car that Mind Over Motorsports brought a couple years ago show up, we want to be set to beat them. The challenge is finding funded drivers who can also drive, rather than the millionaire who's 10 sec. slower than the rest!
"Go, have fun, spend a ton of money and stay on the track and you will place pretty well
---------
So is RPM Transmissions a good source to look into a built tranny and differential? Other recommendations? Any on the West Coast?
"The key to finishing high up is to have an ultra reliable car that gets fabulous gas mileage. In the 2001 race we used a Honda Civic CX with 72 hp to come 3rd in class which was pretty good condsidering that we had less than half the horsepower of any car out there..... but we had an 8 gallon gas tank that lasted 3 hours almost to the minute so we had only 1/3 of the stops of everybody else. It was 6th overall of 75 in the rain by the way.. good drivers help
"_________
That's a great finish in that car indeed! It sounds like from the experienced endurance racers that they really stress the longer stints and keeping pit time to a minimum. We have a 34 gallon fuel cell, and in the few test days we've had, we seem to use about 13 gallons an hour. We will get more mileage data at the June 3rd enduro, but if it's close to this we can go over 2 hours, which is a long stint in such a fast car. We'll all need to train in advance to be able to go the long stints.
What gas mileage are you guys experiencing?
"I would only worry about reliability if I were you. And brakes, tires and especially lights. Oh and a good heater/defroster because it is usually about 40-45 degrees and raining like hell about 11:30 pm so you will not be able to see without one. If you haven't run one of these night races and you are in NorCal NASA, ask my good friend and team mate Ralph Alexander about how to set the lights.."
_________
Hmm, defroster eh? We did get a cloudy windshield at this last Buttonwillow night enduro when it rained. My hand was the defroster :-)...cheap but only so effective. It was a good challenge running on slicks in the rain, as we hadn't brought rain tires. Cars like yours were screaming by us on their rain tires and front wheel drive, while we were literally skating through the course. We ran the 25 Hour race a couple years ago in a different car, and so do have some night driving experience. At first it freaked me out as we were a slow car with blazing lights coming from behind and blinding me in mid-turn, but then I really liked it and ran a double stint from 1:15-3:45am.
"You are not going to beat the 911's IMHO as the Flying Lizard guys that seem to win all of the 25's use the same cars they run in the Rolex 24 and the same drivers and crew.. I think they won GT2 last year at Daytona.. There are a couple of other teams that test at the 25, Randy Pobst used to show every year and J Van Overbeek..."
________
Yep, for our first year at the race with this car, I'm not trying to develop the car to be able to beat such 911 RSR's like that, however if a 996 or 993 Cup car that Mind Over Motorsports brought a couple years ago show up, we want to be set to beat them. The challenge is finding funded drivers who can also drive, rather than the millionaire who's 10 sec. slower than the rest!
"Go, have fun, spend a ton of money and stay on the track and you will place pretty well
05-08-2007, 12:26 PM
#19
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Thanks for the tips!
05-08-2007, 12:54 PM
#20
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Here is a little hint for the bright lights.. go to a window tinter with your mirrors and get 55% tint on them, the inside one too..... Go to a Fry's electronics and buy a 12 volt hurricane fan for a computer and mount it on the dash pointing at the windshield with a switch... no more fog...
By the way the 8 gallon Civic got really good mileage to go 3 hours but the key here is refilling the 8 gallons, it takes boo for time even from plastic fuel jugs...
Actually, we got about 220 miles of flat out, 72hp , never lift racing on 8 gallons! My road cars don't do that on cruise control
By the way the 8 gallon Civic got really good mileage to go 3 hours but the key here is refilling the 8 gallons, it takes boo for time even from plastic fuel jugs...
Actually, we got about 220 miles of flat out, 72hp , never lift racing on 8 gallons! My road cars don't do that on cruise control
Last edited by Tintin; 05-08-2007 at 12:59 PM.