danswofford

I'm seeing 250+ water and 300 engine oil on track days after 15 minutes, after 10 minutes later in the day. Looks like mods are in order. What is the best setup for cooling the engine, engine oil, tranny and diff? I'm looking for specific parts and vendors for good time tested parts that work.

Also I'm cooking the brakes. I need brake ducts, I know LG has the spindle plates, who has the best duct that works with the spindle plates?

I'm getting brake fade with Hawk HP+ with Napa rotors, stock calipers and Motul. Any suggestions?

Thanks Dan

yellow01

There are a few solutions out there for oil coolers. I have the integrated (oil/radiator) cooler from LG. There are others. There are also standalone oil coolers which I think work well. The LG solution fixed my problem - no more than 255 at the end of a full 25minute session in 95F Texas heat.

I have no personal experience with his other coolers. Some here do.

DRM sells the plastic ducts and flexible high temp hose that routes to the spindle ducts. They take some manipulation, I had to cut mine 1" shorter than the instructions said (I took that to mean the instructions were a starting point ) but now that they are in there is a differnece for sure.

I overheated stock pads quickly with no ducts and they really aren't that much worse than the hp+ if you ask me (and many others). I've run the HP and it wasn't worth the money (just my opinion).

Hawk HP aren't really track duty pads. If you are seeing 300 degress it seems you're running pretty hard. Add in no cooling and it is not surprise to me the pads are not up to the job.

Look into track pads. Many like the carbotech for stock calipers. I use Wilwood H's and think they're the sh*t. But, with track pads cooling is almost a must. The pad might hold up but the rotor probably won't for long.

Sounds like we have shared similar problems. I added the DRM ducts, Wilwood H pads (Wilwood calipers from LG too) and the LG radiator/oil cooler. I'm very happy with all of the above.

Hope this helps.

emf

Ron davis radiator & oil cooler + trans and diff coolers where you can stick 'em. DRM has a nice kit, as does LGM . . . the LGM kit actually uses a 2 stage dry-sump pump attached at the diff.


What tracks are you getting brake fade at? What's your braking usually like?

danswofford

[QUOTE=yellow01]There are a few solutions out there for oil coolers. I have the integrated (oil/radiator) cooler from LG. There are others. There are also standalone oil coolers which I think work well. The LG solution fixed my problem - no more than 255 at the end of a full 25minute session in 95F Texas heat.

looking into that. Seems a decent price at ~750 However some would say that an stand alone oil cooler works better than being in the radiator. I sure don't know.

OK so far my shopping list is:

LG cooler, water/oil cooler
Carboteck (what numbers)
DRM ducts
LG spindle plates ( if I don't fabricate my own)

danswofford

Well, I've only run twice at Thunderhill. There is a back straight between 9 and 10 that is downhill and I brake from 110 to 60 then from 13 to 14 is about the same and 15 to 1 is 125 to 85. It is the downhill that is bad. I might be overbraking and I'm going to work on that next time out.

Cold the brakes will stop me from 100 to 0 insanly fast after a few laps it just takes much longer to stop. The ABS never kicks in.

I'm new to road racing but I raced dirt stock cars for a few years. I drive as hard and as fast as I can.

I'll look into the Ron Davis stuff.

emf

Are you trail braking? Generically speaking, the HP+ are probably too cold a pad for hard braking at thunderhill -- it sounds like you're braking late & trail braking.

The Carbotech pads will probably help out a bit, or you could also look at the Hawk HT10 or DTC70's if you're up for a full race pad (need to check fitment though, I know they have aftermarket caliper sizes, but don't have the C5 stocker pn's). The PFC01's are also a decent race pad, but retain a crapload of heat . . . you'll end up cracking 1 piece rotors way too often, IMO.
There's going to be a limit to what a light track / performance pad can do . . . you may be getting to / over that limit.

Standard disclaimer, the pads mention above are true race pads, and would likely be a handful on the street . . . . if you're driving to/from the track, they may not be the pads for you w/o swapping to a street / light track pad.



RE the radiator, I know there's a big debate on the integrated / non-integrated oil cooler placement . . . . reality is, that for most stock and/or moderately mod'd vettes, the integrated is the better bet. Thermostat isn't required with the integrated, plumbing and mounting is a bit cleaner, and coolers like the Ron Davis are good to 600hp+ (under-rated).

danswofford

Hey, EMF
Thanks for the reply. I brake late, brake har, off the brakes and and turn in. I hardly drive the car on the street at all. I'll probably weld in a cage next winter and race NASA. I'll probably put in the big brakes then. I'd just like to get through some track days til then.

I think now that the overheating is due to the front spoiler I just put on. I'll have to enlarge the air entry holes. The spoiler is kind of a crock. Slowed me down 8 MPH on the front straight and I couldn't tell the difference in downforce cornering, but then I'm not that good a driver to tell yet.

I wouldn't care if I had to replace the Napa rotors every two days or so. After two days on the them now they are showing little hairline checks 1/8 to 1/4" long. I have no idea if that is normal or not.

Dan

AU N EGL

That is normal heat checks or minor cracks. WHen the crack is to the outter edge time to replace them. Two to three weekends for the fonts, 4-5 weekends for the rear.

Brake pads: PFC-01s, WIlwood H, Carbotech XP11 for the front and XP10 for the rear, or the Hawk DT70s

Hawk HPS and HP+ are not for track use.

Brake fluid: ATE Blue or Gold, Castrol SRF, Motul, & Wilwood 600

Min 400* wet boiling point

emf

Splitter? Unless you're ducting from the underside of the fascia, I wouldn't normally expect a splitter to cut that much air out of the wheel well versus stock. Who's splitter are you using, and which ducts are you looking at enlarging? Are you also using some type of aero in the back to balance the car out? Even with splitter and undertray, I haven't seen a significant reduction in flow to the brakes [admitedly, it's difficult to measure air flow aside from symptomatically monitoring caliper/rotor temps]


The heat check cracks you're noticing are normal, especially w/ one-piece rotors. They'll get worse more rapidly w/ "real" track pads. PFC's hold more heat from what I've seen, which will help accelerate cracking. Cooling will help significantly, but it'll never "solve" or keep rotors from cracking. They're consumables, big brakes or not.

You're on the right track . . . start with pad and ducting upgrades, and you'll be head and shoulders better.

John Shiels

Hawk HP is not a good pad for hard use. I lost 3 MPH with the wing and splitter at Pocono coming to the tunnel turn which is 165 with stock body. Lap times are lower. What splitter do you have? My splitter helps cooling.

danswofford

The front splitter is from ACI and I modified it so the splitter protrudes another inch. The opening for radiator is about 2" tall and whereas I can't imagine that airflow is diminished at speed it is the only change I've made since last track day where I ran cool. I'm going to modify the splitter so the opening will be 3" the lip will be one inch lower and make ducting behind the splitter to deflect airflow more directly to the radiator. If that does not fix it I'll get a race radiator. I now think my 300 degree oil temps were a associated function of the general engine overheating and not a seperate problem. Cool the engine and the oil temps should come down.

Regarding brakes I've ordered Carbotech 12/10s, LG spindle duct plates, D.Rippie brake ducts and for good measure, tie rod and ball joint shields.

emf

Not entirely.
While a bigger radiator will help, an oil cooler is the only thing that'll keep you away from 300+ deg oil temps. Been there.



The shopping list sounds like a decent start. Likely, you'll find a couple things that you'll want to update / change / add as well. 2" or 3" splitter will add a bit of downforce at speed if it's built right. You'll need to add something to the rear to establish some balance, tho. In the unlikely event that you still need more front downforce, add gurney lips to the leading edge of the wheel well, and vent the top of the wheel wells . . . likely get you a bigger bang than extending the splitter another inch or so.

AU N EGL

John and my splitters are the ACP ( Advance Composite Products ) not ACI.

My and I think John's ACP slitter opening is 3" high x 25" wide. The ACP C5 world challage splitter and nose has an opening of 5" high x 30" wide. WC also use an air extraxtor hood which helps pull the air though the radiator. I do not have an extractor hood yet.

John and I both have a front diffuser which pulls air into the raidiator and into behind the wheels to help brake cooling.

a front 2" splitter needs a 1" rear spoiler, a front 3 or 4" splitter needs a rear wing. Side skirts also help with aerodynamics. That said these aero parts are not really bolt on and go, They do need some tweeking here and there. I had to play change the rake of my car a few times to get the down force to feel right. a wind tunnel would be best.

Enough about aero,

Regarding oil temps. What we see with relativly new ppl to the track is high oil temps i.e. 300 or higher. I beleive the main cause is shifting too much, going down to 2nd gear when just using the cars huge torque in lower gears to get out of a corner. Keeping RPMS above 4000 all the time, which some popular cams require. Is the car or are they faster?? no, just doing more work in the cockpit.

Other things that cause too high of oil temps are gears. 3.90s and 4.10s again requireing too much shifting and the engine is working too much for the same speeds. Not to mention higher trans temps.

Smooth driving, brake hard and slow into a corner with fast speeds out of the corners. Finding the correct braking distance for each corner. Maybe you could go 25 feet deeper into the braking zone maybe not. Using more of the cars momenteum vs pure grunt and torque.
Be relaxed when you are driving and Be good to your equipment.

0Randy@DRM

The one most important thing that you forgot on your list is good brake fluid. Fluid is the first thing you need. Then the rest, DRM ducts pads, then ss pistons also from DRM, then ss lines.
On the engine temps, if you lower the water temps by buying a radiator, it will only help your oil temps a little bit, maybe 10 degrees.

Thanks
Randy

danswofford

I've looked at your SS pistons. They replace aluminium pistons? Why do the SS pistons work better than aluminium?

danswofford

What is a diffuser and how does it work?

Is the addition of a big radiator a must? If so I'll quit thinking about it and just buy one along with tranny and diff coolers.

My goal is to make this car a hard core track car, meaning to eliminate as many known foreseeable problems as possible.

yellow01

saved that to my notes file...

Although I'm a bit curious about it (not doubting you, learning). I would think the splitter angle is the difference maker, although I could reason that a larger splitter at the same angle has more effect?

ss conducts less heat than Al so will keep less heat from reaching the fluid.

emf

It's basically just an undertray . . . extends to just behind the radiator, and channels air from under the car [that which makes it & not thru the radiator] and out towards the wheel wells, rather than just under the car (generating lift).

Unforunately, with a 4" splitter the undertray is a MUST . . . there's just too much flex otherwise. If you can't step on it & keep the leading edge of the splitter off the ground, it isn't stable enough . . . . 2 inches is debatable, but w/ 4" it's a requirement (period).



If it's a "hard core" track car, then yes . . . you'll need a larger radiator and oil cooler . . . add it to the list next to trans and diff coolers. Regardless of "shifting too much", keeping the car balanced properly will typically mean maintaining higher rev's leading in / out of a turn. You simply won't be able to keep the car balanced if you try to lug the car out of corners, just the same as you won't need to wind the car to 7k every turn, every lap, just for the sake of rev'g to 7k.

At a minimum, the temps you'll build at ThunderHill and ButtonWillow under even moderate pressure . . . . you'll want to swap radiator & add oil cooler.