Are you in Good Hands at HPDE's?
05-09-2006, 02:42 PM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Are you in Good Hands at HPDE's?
This is not about instructor's liability, but driver's liability at HPDE's.
I got my Tarheel BMWCCA newsletter yesterday and I read an interesting article by their instructor committee concerning HPDE insurance/liability and such.
They said any accidents on track should be treated as any accident on private property such as parking lots. The person deemed at fault will be responsible for any damage to other’s cars and property. They indicated that if the car was insured, then the at fault driver will have insurance protection, and without insurance he will have to go to his pocket to pay for all the damage. Now this brings up a good question, of those of us who participate in HPDE’s, who has insurance that will pay, and next, those of you who don’t have insurance, can you afford to fix my car if you hit me or anyone else’s vehicle along with track damage? This begs the bigger questions, could you afford the hospital bills that might be incurred by an injured person? Could you afford the legal bills necessary to defend yourself?
They acknowledge that in most cases everyone has signed the waiver forms, but smart lawyers could possibly get around that by saying the participant wasn’t given enough time to read and understand what he signed since he was in line with many people behind him.
It boils down to personal responsibility at these events and realize you will be responsible one way or another for the damage you do to your car or anyone else's, along with personal injuries.
I got my Tarheel BMWCCA newsletter yesterday and I read an interesting article by their instructor committee concerning HPDE insurance/liability and such.
They said any accidents on track should be treated as any accident on private property such as parking lots. The person deemed at fault will be responsible for any damage to other’s cars and property. They indicated that if the car was insured, then the at fault driver will have insurance protection, and without insurance he will have to go to his pocket to pay for all the damage. Now this brings up a good question, of those of us who participate in HPDE’s, who has insurance that will pay, and next, those of you who don’t have insurance, can you afford to fix my car if you hit me or anyone else’s vehicle along with track damage? This begs the bigger questions, could you afford the hospital bills that might be incurred by an injured person? Could you afford the legal bills necessary to defend yourself?
They acknowledge that in most cases everyone has signed the waiver forms, but smart lawyers could possibly get around that by saying the participant wasn’t given enough time to read and understand what he signed since he was in line with many people behind him.
It boils down to personal responsibility at these events and realize you will be responsible one way or another for the damage you do to your car or anyone else's, along with personal injuries.
05-09-2006, 02:47 PM
#2
Drifting
Good points, but it really goes farther than that. You can be right and still get sued, and still lose. If I've got a better lawyer, my driving skills might not even matter.
I don't have an answer, but it is a sobering thread.
I don't have an answer, but it is a sobering thread.
05-09-2006, 02:51 PM
#3
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St. Jude Donor '08
This is going to start the "my insurance pays for accidents at the track, but yours doesn't" argument. Many people try to say that insurance does not cover track days, but infact many are wrong. I know that my policy DOES cover track days as long as: There is no race for time or prizes and no direct "competition" between other cars for position. A HPDE does not include those "exclusionary" items. An Auto-X, however does include timing equipment and would not be covered. I am only talking from my experience with State Farm in CA.
05-09-2006, 02:51 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
The only group that really discusses liability here in North Calif. has been at the NASA events. They have in the past made a pointed intro that includes that if you damage somebody else you are liable and if you don't make good then don't expect to get into any more of their events and then they note that lots of their people work with other groups. Most everyone else doesn't mention it since it is expected that all car contact will be avoided, which after three years has been true so far. While most rely on their personal insurance when no timing is involved I've even seen some cars covered where there was timing available and even in use. I'm guessing that there is no one answer.
Randy
Randy
05-09-2006, 03:19 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
Despite the special cases, am I right in supposing that generally
no distinction will be made about where timing equipment might be
situated?
Even if no timing equipment is operated by the organizers, are
data loggers and even stopwatches amongst crew members
or spectators likely to void coverage?
A group I ran with on a few occasions warned that anyone
observed timing runs would be asked to leave.
.
no distinction will be made about where timing equipment might be
situated?
Even if no timing equipment is operated by the organizers, are
data loggers and even stopwatches amongst crew members
or spectators likely to void coverage?
A group I ran with on a few occasions warned that anyone
observed timing runs would be asked to leave.
.
05-09-2006, 03:28 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Aug 2003
Location: Los Gatos CA
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At HPDE's, should you be responsible for another car if they are out of position, etc? One example - a car in front of you spins in a turn and in turn, you hit them. You did nothing wrong, but you are the one that made contact. Or the video in the other thread - the driver spun off, sure, but it's not his fault the other cars were in an unsafe position. In the first, I'm not sure who blame would be assigned to. In the latter, I'd say either the organizers or track would be at fault. It's a very tough question, particularly in this ligitation happy country we live in.
<edit>
How many people run in-car video? I know that many do. Isn't that timing equipment also???
<edit>
How many people run in-car video? I know that many do. Isn't that timing equipment also???
05-09-2006, 03:37 PM
#7
Team Owner
This is why I don't sign any waivers at any track. The event organizers flat out lie to you when they say that "you're not covered by the insurance if you don't sign". Read the waiver. You give up all rights to recover anything if you cause property or personal damage. If someone hits me, I expect to recover my ride. Likewise, if there is coolant, oil or any other foreign substance on the track, I expect to recover. Likewise, if I cause those conditions, I will make good on my promise to pay for what I have caused.
My personal opinion is that if you can't afford to wad it up, you shouldn't have it at the track anyway. If you are truly going for "driver education" or a "high performance d.e." day... how many of those do you still go to and you're still being "educated"?!? I'd venture an opinion that if you attend four, five or six open lapping days (de, hpde, whatever), that you've already overstepped your bounds as to what your personal automobile liability policy should/would cover.
Most people are covered in the event of a wreck, but then typically they are dropped like a rock. (i.e. chargeable accident)
Progressive insurance has recently come out with verbiage on renewals that specifically carves out participation in track related events.
Also, for the longest time, Allstate has had language to the effect of "we will deny a claim that is in practice or preparation for a timed or high speed event".
Again, the newsletter excerpt from above basically states that if you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
And, I for one, if you hit me with your car while you're outta control or have a mechanical failure, yes, you will pay to fix my ride and me along with it. I will reciprocate also.
For you newbies out there to road racing or who are learning to go fast, check your automotive policies verrrry carefully, and decide for you if YOU can afford to wad it up.
My personal opinion is that if you can't afford to wad it up, you shouldn't have it at the track anyway. If you are truly going for "driver education" or a "high performance d.e." day... how many of those do you still go to and you're still being "educated"?!? I'd venture an opinion that if you attend four, five or six open lapping days (de, hpde, whatever), that you've already overstepped your bounds as to what your personal automobile liability policy should/would cover.
Most people are covered in the event of a wreck, but then typically they are dropped like a rock. (i.e. chargeable accident)
Progressive insurance has recently come out with verbiage on renewals that specifically carves out participation in track related events.
Also, for the longest time, Allstate has had language to the effect of "we will deny a claim that is in practice or preparation for a timed or high speed event".
Again, the newsletter excerpt from above basically states that if you can't afford to wad it up, don't take it to the track.
And, I for one, if you hit me with your car while you're outta control or have a mechanical failure, yes, you will pay to fix my ride and me along with it. I will reciprocate also.
For you newbies out there to road racing or who are learning to go fast, check your automotive policies verrrry carefully, and decide for you if YOU can afford to wad it up.
05-09-2006, 03:38 PM
#8
Team Owner
Originally Posted by Slalom4me
Despite the special cases, am I right in supposing that generally
no distinction will be made about where timing equipment might be
situated?
Even if no timing equipment is operated by the organizers, are
data loggers and even stopwatches amongst crew members
or spectators likely to void coverage?
A group I ran with on a few occasions warned that anyone
observed timing runs would be asked to leave.
.
no distinction will be made about where timing equipment might be
situated?
Even if no timing equipment is operated by the organizers, are
data loggers and even stopwatches amongst crew members
or spectators likely to void coverage?
A group I ran with on a few occasions warned that anyone
observed timing runs would be asked to leave.
.
05-09-2006, 03:59 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by SCCACornerWorker
See my other post... review your policy carefully. "Practice or preparation
for a timed or high speed event" is a good enough clause for an
insurance company's attorney to throw your claim out on it's azz.
for a timed or high speed event" is a good enough clause for an
insurance company's attorney to throw your claim out on it's azz.
are found to be practicing or preparing, 'too bad, so sad' ...
I wasn't aware it extends to that point but I posted because I feel
many are unaware of the likelyhood of the circumstances they may find
themselves in should the day go wrong. I remember watching someone
working their wristwatch at one of the zero-tolerance events and
thinking about human nature. I have a both logger and a camera,
the potential consequences have run through my mind on more than
one occasion.
Incidently, how do you get into the event when you decline to sign.
Wouldn't (shouldn't) happen up here - you don't get to play unless you
sign. That said, I realize that it wouldn't be impossible for someone to
slip past the waiver-collectors at times.
.
05-09-2006, 04:07 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
As for being able to afford to wad up my car, this is less a concern
for me than is liability for injury or property damage to others.
I don't mention medical insurance because, so far as I know, the
health care situation here in Canada does not have coverage
exclusions for certain activities. Still, I am interested how this aspect
is addressed south of the 49th.
.
for me than is liability for injury or property damage to others.
I don't mention medical insurance because, so far as I know, the
health care situation here in Canada does not have coverage
exclusions for certain activities. Still, I am interested how this aspect
is addressed south of the 49th.
.
05-09-2006, 04:16 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by RedHotBolt
He says if not timed or no competition I'm covered.
attending an event and unbeknownst to me, my guest is keeping track
of your times?
Suppose you have an incident and the guest is interviewed by a
representative of SF, what then ?
.
05-09-2006, 04:33 PM
#13
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It can get pretty theoretical i suppose. NASA Mid Atlantic definitely did not want timing devices in HPDE cars, no exceptions and would send you home. I know guys who have wadded up cars that insurance paid for. When i backed my camaro into a tire wall in the laces at Watkins Glen i didn't want to take the risk of getting dropped by my insurance for $1200 in damages so i fixed it out of pocket. I know if there is an event timer or awards that you would be lucky to get coverage. Outside of that its going to end up mostly guessing.
I like the advice stated earlier that says if you can't afford to wreck it don't put it on a track. That seems tough, and in an HPDE you really shouldn't hit somebody but its a race track and it is risky. Unless somebody is injured my insurance probably won't be called.
If your really worried talk to your agent, but you might not like the answers.
I like the advice stated earlier that says if you can't afford to wreck it don't put it on a track. That seems tough, and in an HPDE you really shouldn't hit somebody but its a race track and it is risky. Unless somebody is injured my insurance probably won't be called.
If your really worried talk to your agent, but you might not like the answers.
05-09-2006, 04:48 PM
#14
Team Owner
The reality of the the whole "high performance" aspect of driving on a "race" track is that by being there, you are immediately in a much higher risk environment. Sure, sure, accidents can occur anywhere-- but predominately, in any "race", you see one occur every time you turn on that channel. Does it happen at every HPDE? Probably not, but statistically, the insurance companies are getting smart and carving in language to limit their exposure. If you can't afford to wad it up, you probably shouldn't be there, unless you take out a specialized race track oriented policy.
05-09-2006, 04:54 PM
#15
Originally Posted by SCCACornerWorker
This is why I don't sign any waivers at any track. The event organizers flat out lie to you when they say that "you're not covered by the insurance if you don't sign". Read the waiver. You give up all rights to recover anything if you cause property or personal damage. If someone hits me, I expect to recover my ride. Likewise, if there is coolant, oil or any other foreign substance on the track, I expect to recover. Likewise, if I cause those conditions, I will make good on my promise to pay for what I have caused.[/I][/B]
05-09-2006, 04:56 PM
#16
Team Owner
[QUOTE=Jess03Z06
If your really worried talk to your agent, but you might not like the answers.[/QUOTE]
"Talk" versus "read the fine print" are two very and important distinctions.
When I first became involved in hitting a lot of tracks all over creation, I talked with my agent about the possibility of my insurance company possibly covering me at a high speed event....
His answer: "Sure, you'll be covered no problem."
And, I knew better, because I had already read the fine print...
So, I sent his office a letter stating that per our recent conversation that they would cover any claim arising out of a driver's education event.
Now, by this point, I was doing two dozen plus events per year and my car didn't owe me anything (as far as getting it replaced if I wadded it up). So, I tried to push the bureuacratic buttons a bit and sent them the letter as I've briefly outlined above.
I never did get a response from their local office.
I did, however, receive a letter back from a corporate attorney for the insurance company that said something ridiculous to the effect of, "xxxxx insurance company cannot deny or accept the validity of any claim until the claim is placed."
Ok, so we were in tap dancing mode at that point. And that's where I dropped the whole issue. I realize what my responsibilities are, and if I cause property damage at a track-- it's my responsibility to own up to it. Regular automotive insurance has no business covering me for the thousand laps per year that I do.
If your really worried talk to your agent, but you might not like the answers.[/QUOTE]
"Talk" versus "read the fine print" are two very and important distinctions.
When I first became involved in hitting a lot of tracks all over creation, I talked with my agent about the possibility of my insurance company possibly covering me at a high speed event....
His answer: "Sure, you'll be covered no problem."
And, I knew better, because I had already read the fine print...
So, I sent his office a letter stating that per our recent conversation that they would cover any claim arising out of a driver's education event.
Now, by this point, I was doing two dozen plus events per year and my car didn't owe me anything (as far as getting it replaced if I wadded it up). So, I tried to push the bureuacratic buttons a bit and sent them the letter as I've briefly outlined above.
I never did get a response from their local office.
I did, however, receive a letter back from a corporate attorney for the insurance company that said something ridiculous to the effect of, "xxxxx insurance company cannot deny or accept the validity of any claim until the claim is placed."
Ok, so we were in tap dancing mode at that point. And that's where I dropped the whole issue. I realize what my responsibilities are, and if I cause property damage at a track-- it's my responsibility to own up to it. Regular automotive insurance has no business covering me for the thousand laps per year that I do.
05-09-2006, 05:03 PM
#17
Team Owner
Originally Posted by sgsvette
I take it that you are in fact an SCCA corner worker, so my question is will SCCA still let you enter or participate in their event if you don't sign their waver?
I've never ever signed a waiver since I've educated myself to be "more" responsible for myself. The event organizers? Well, the people that are asking you to sign it really don't give a ****. When you pull up to the gate (if that's where you need to sign). Just plainly write "declined" and "declined" under "signature" and "duties". And, at the mass registration table, there is never a gestapo there that forces you to sign anything. There will, however, be someone that is saying "please be sure to sign the waiver, this is the only way you'll be covered by the insurance".
Really, take a moment to read that waiver... How does it truly help you? (it doesn't is the answer
) And, where is it written about "insurance" and how you'll be covered? Comon ! Racing is dangerous, period. You are being given the go-ahead to go as fast as you want, sane or not, with zero certifications, and they are going to give you insurance? 
05-09-2006, 05:08 PM
#18
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by SCCACornerWorker
...take out a specialized race track oriented policy.
I agree that those of us who participate in events should not expect
the average drivers to subsidize our coverage. I'd also like to have
more certainty of where the coverage boundaries lie - I for one,
choose not to talk to my current insurer out of concern that this will
lead to my account being flagged or worse, me being dropped for some
pretext.
If I purchased an event policy, it would be on the basis that coverage
is clear and then there is no need for flying below the radar.
.
Last edited by Slalom4me; 05-09-2006 at 05:11 PM.
05-09-2006, 05:16 PM
#19
Le Mans Master
If you really want your times from an event, just put a video camera in your car and check the tape later. I know one guy that just puts a CD in and turns the volume all the way down, then looks down at the CD player at the end of his run. It ain't perfect, but come on it's just a HPDE, not the last lap of Le Mans
05-09-2006, 05:17 PM
#20
Team Owner
We will be putting on our 13th event next June.
If someone refuses to sign the waiver, they cannot run, period.
Its their choice. If they want to come out and screw off on someone elses dime then they can do it elsewhere.
Everyone is responsible enough to realize what they are doing. We've been incident free everytime and I expect to continue to be that way.
Strict rule enforcement, making sure the cornerworkers know they really are in control. They go through the drivers meeting and know the rules. I tell them first sign of anything outside of safety pull them off the track.
My group is alot of DD's except for the advanced group which still consists of DD's but also drivers who have alot of experience.
If the driver in front of you is being stupid, there is a brake pedal, if the one behind you is, wave them past, pull off and let someone know.
Thankfully we've never had an incident but I believe there is a reason why. I have some good people there who keep an eye on other drivers, and we keep an eye on them ourselves.
I'd rather yank someone off the track and black flag them to have a chat than cause a problem.
You get a feel for drivers, we don't invite those who ask too many insurance questions
If you want to do an HPDE and have that many insurance questions then your either looking for a free ride or can't afford to be out in your own car as it is.
I guess its like a schoolteacher, some have discipline problems, others don't simply based on their behavior and the mood they set in the classroom.
We run a fun and safe event. Part of it is a feeling you get for the other drivers. Ego's cause the biggest problem so making people, especially newbies comfortable in saying I don't know what I'm doing is the biggest thing.
Usually a ride in a race prepped car shuts most of them up and they ask for help
Litigation will kill everything eventually.
We had a great for sale section at work as a Lotus Notes database, the lawyers shut it down because the company could be liable for what someone sold to another on company time.
If someone refuses to sign the waiver, they cannot run, period.
Its their choice. If they want to come out and screw off on someone elses dime then they can do it elsewhere.
Everyone is responsible enough to realize what they are doing. We've been incident free everytime and I expect to continue to be that way.
Strict rule enforcement, making sure the cornerworkers know they really are in control. They go through the drivers meeting and know the rules. I tell them first sign of anything outside of safety pull them off the track.
My group is alot of DD's except for the advanced group which still consists of DD's but also drivers who have alot of experience.
If the driver in front of you is being stupid, there is a brake pedal, if the one behind you is, wave them past, pull off and let someone know.
Thankfully we've never had an incident but I believe there is a reason why. I have some good people there who keep an eye on other drivers, and we keep an eye on them ourselves.
I'd rather yank someone off the track and black flag them to have a chat than cause a problem.
You get a feel for drivers, we don't invite those who ask too many insurance questions
If you want to do an HPDE and have that many insurance questions then your either looking for a free ride or can't afford to be out in your own car as it is.I guess its like a schoolteacher, some have discipline problems, others don't simply based on their behavior and the mood they set in the classroom.
We run a fun and safe event. Part of it is a feeling you get for the other drivers. Ego's cause the biggest problem so making people, especially newbies comfortable in saying I don't know what I'm doing is the biggest thing.
Usually a ride in a race prepped car shuts most of them up and they ask for help
Litigation will kill everything eventually.
We had a great for sale section at work as a Lotus Notes database, the lawyers shut it down because the company could be liable for what someone sold to another on company time.