gothamZ06

Ok, I've been making the rounds trying to figure out if this will work.

I have posted in various places trying to gather information on data.

Here are the cliff notes:

1- total cost of calipers & pads from GM is ~$800
2- front calipers are made by brembo, rears are a propietary GM design
3- CTS-V rotors will not fit on the C5, due to the Caddy's 6 lug bolt pattern
4- 14" rotors from the C6 Z51 package would need to be used

Outstanding questions:
1- will front and rear calipers bolt-in?
A- Has anyone with a CTS gone with C5 brakes or has anyone with a V used C6 Z06 calipers?
B- Is the rotor for our cars in 14" trim thinner then the V's rotors? Does this matter?
2- what size wheels are needed at least (I am guessing these would fit under stock C5 Z06 wheels)?
A- Will these clear deep dish wheels (specifically my CCW 19" SP500s)

Posts with info
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4768692
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98051
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...brakes-c5.html

This would be a great setup, if anybody has any thoughts *please* chime in.

Bill Dearborn

The C6 Z51 rotor should be the same thickness as the C5 rotor. The C6 and C5 use the same caliper so the rotors should be the same thickness.

Bill

gothamZ06

Thanks Bill.

I guess the $64K question is: will the calipers bolt-in to our stock location? Brembo says this about the mounting location for the front calipers:

Mounting Hole Centers: 130 mm.
Mounting Offset: 48-53 mm.

Does anyone know if this gives any indication as to mounting location on our cars (ie is this a general measurement that can be compared to the C5 specs?).

Finally, it was suggested to look at the XLR-Vs brake setup, considering it was built on the Vette platform. So I'll see what I can dig up.

NoOne

I checked the XLR's stuff is the same as C5/6, even the V.

I didn't get into work today but tommorow I'll get one of the brake people to look and let me know if it'll fit in general dimensions.

It will almost likely need a new bracket if it fits at all.

The bigger question is, if it does fit, what pads are available and at what cost?

Kind of like the Z06 caliper, cheap for what your getting but the pad cost is outrageous and low selection. If some decent and reasonable pads come out than that would be the setup.

Does the GTO and CTS-V share anything? C5/6 calipers fit on both the C5/6 and the GTO, if they share anything with the CTS-V then they will fit, just need a bracket.

This is the same style caliper I had on my RX7, changing pads is a breeze.

Looks like Wildwood only makes the 'H' pad for the rear, nothing for the front. The rear must share something with another platform.

XPC5R

Here are the rotor specs:

Large four-piston Brembo brakes with vented rotors measuring 355-mm by 32-mm are utilized up front while rear brakes include four piston calipers with 365-mm by 28-mm rotors.

32mm front rotors are about the same width as the 1.25" C5/c6/Z06 rotors. They are actually the asize of the C6 Z06 rotors (355x32)

The mounting hole centers sound correct, I'll have to double check some measurments I have written down at home.

gothamZ06

There are quite a few pads available for this brake setup, unlike the C6 Z. I would imagine pads are not crazy expensive as this caliper is used in the Lotus Esprit and Viper. As for the GTO: I thought I read that somebody swapped in these brakes on their Goat -- but I could be mistaken.

Here is the list of available pads:

Some brake pad info:
# Front pad FMSI number: D1001
# Rear pad FMSI number: D592 Hawk
# Hawk Front #: HB453.585
# Hawk Rear #: HB194.570 (the Hawk catalog shows HB194.665, the "665" is the thickness of the pad. Hawk does not make a pad 0.665" thick only 0.570" thick)
# Hawk Compounds available: HPS, HP+, no race compounds yet
Compounds: http://www.hawkperformance.com/product_features.cfm

The HPS compound may be a good pad to try for people unhappy with the dust produced by the stock pads.


Performance Friction
# PFC Front #: PFC 7781
# PFC Rear #: PFC 592
# PFC Compounds: Front pads race compound upto 97. Rear pads race compound upto 01.
Compounds: http://www.raceshopper.com/performan...ompounds.shtml

http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/ makes custom brake pads, so they made me the front 01 pads.


Pagid
# Front #: 2487
# Rear #: 1408 Race compounds only: http://www.pagidusa.com/pagidracing/...teristics.html


Ferodo
# Stock pad is a Ferodo, compound HP1000.

Front:
Casting # FERODOHP10001/1
BREMBO part #: 07.7275.56 (57)
Cadillac part #: 89047725
Box packaged by ACDelco

Rear:
Casting # FERODOHP10001/1
BREMBO part #: 07.7783.43
Cadillac part #: 89047744



Good news is, the front is an "off-the-shelf" Brembo caliper.

This caliper is also used on the Viper, Lotus Esprit, etc. It's Brembo caliper:
model# 20.5187.30
So pads are available right now!

Front
FMSI no: D592
Thickness: 0.665

Rear (This is a V proprietary pad )
FMSI no: D1011
THickness: 0.785

Hawk is showing availablity: HB194

THe Hawk HP might be a good pad to try, it's not known to be dusty, but (guessing here) it's probably not as aggressive as the stock pads. The Hawk HP+ is a great street/track pad... works well on the track, probably just as dusty as stock pads.

Full list here: http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/brkpadspec.html

NoOne

There was apparently a Ram Air 6 GTO/Holden concept that used the CTV-S brakes.

Deppends on what they did to use it, but must have been close enough. If they bolt upto a GTO then at least they should fit a C5.

I found this pic of it on the GTO:

http://gallery.genvibe.com/gallery/S...SC01405?full=1

That is for sure the Viper GTS brake from the 2nd gen. I'll see if I can borrow one from work and see how it fits up.

Scooter70

The Ram Air 6 GTO wasn't really "bolt-on". http://www.ls2gto.com/forums/showthr...highlight=ctsv

GTO and CTSv are pretty different. In that link, some of the guys were talking about wanted to bolt the Caddy spindles to the GTO to use the brakes as well as the wheels (since the Caddy is 6 lug and the GTO is 5 lug).

-Matt

NoOne

Even though its not a bolt on, it at least does show that it fits in mostly stock locations.

I know I'll need a bracket but basic fitment was what I was concerned with.

XPC5R

Actually since the mounting holes are in the same location/spacing, no bracket would be needed. You may need some spacers to locate/center the caliper on the rotor, and then select a rotor diameter (13, 14") that will fit the caliper/knuckle combo.

NoOne

The C5 caliper mounts on the side, the CTS-V caliper mounts on the bottom of the interior side.

You would for sure need a bracket.

RichieRichZ06

Just wondering why you wanted to change to CTS-V hardware? I drove one for a month or so and was not impressed with the brakes. They are big, but under heavy "spirited driving" they quickly became overheated and very spongy, eventually leading to the rotors warping and needing turning. I guess on a significantly lighter car they might work better, but there is better options out there. IMHO RICH

NoOne

Price.

If I didn't have the taper problem I would not look at another brake setup at all.

A 4 piston just by its design should not have a taper problem.

The problems you experienced were more likely a result of the pad choice and fluid used.

Its amazing how much compromise is made in pad material when it comes to noise. Not just overall noise but cold noise, warm noise, friction differences in dry versus wet. Most brake pads the coefficient of friction goes WAY up when its wet outside for the first few stops, doesn't make sense but they do. So they make 5 compromises elsewhere so the brakes aren't grabby on your first 1-2 stops out of your driveway or in a parking lot.

The same caliper is used on the Viper and the Ford GT, although the GT's is a monoblock, while the Viper/CTS-V is a 2 piece.

Same goes with the rotor, there are better materials in certain rotors.

The caliper itself is great, and its less than $164 from a GM dealer. Compare that to any other 4-6 piston caliper out there.

It solves the taper problem, will give better braking, better pad selection and hopefully cheaper overall pads. The stock CTS-V is not a bad brake pad for the street and goes for $35 for the fronts, tough to beat that. The caliper will have OEM qualities for dust/dirty/water intrusion making it more DD friendly.

The problem you experienced was more the result of the parts used within the system, not the system itself. Better rotors, pads, and fluid would give you quite a different feel.

Every OEM has targets they want to meet on price, noise level, and usually the last thing on their mind is the overall performance for someone doing what you were doing. Us spending an extra $3-4 dollars on a better pad selection or better fluid is nothing, with the volumes they look at those dollars are big.

I'm honestly not a big supercar fan but what your really getting in a Ferrari, Porsche, etc is all those little compromises some of the OEM's make in things like pads, fluid, etc are thrown out the window and the system is designed around intent and uses the right parts. Thats where alot of the price differences come in, then figure they mark that up even more.

gothamZ06

Yah, but will it fit?

hehehe...sorry couldn't resist.

In addition to what NoOne wrote there are other considerations that make this a great option:

1- price. As NoOne stated, these calipers are a bargain...and even more so when you consider that most BBK are 3K and up.

2- size. The only other real competitor here is the C6 Z06 setup. At 1600 or so it offers a reasonablly priced setup that we know bolts right in...till you realize you need to get wheels I spent $4K+ on some great CCWs, and in order to get the C6 Z calipers to fit I would have to run a 1/2" spacer up front and nearly a 1" spacer in the rear. Insanity if you ask me. So then what? I can either add fender flares or sell my wheels and buy new ones. The CTS-V calipers are smaller, which leads me to believe that in addition to all the other advantages, they will also be able to fit under a larger selection of wheels. You will not need to buy expensive BBK wheels.

All in all this is a very exciting possibility.

-N

NoOne

Just to add the Z06 isn't a option for me because of pad selection.

I've heard nothing but poor things about the Z06 brakes, again mostly because of pad selection.

So when good pads do come out your looking, at current prices, probably $800 in pads along for street and track.

Its a killer deal if there was a decently priced pad available but until there is alot of other options make more sense.

RichieRichZ06

Good reasoning and info!

SteveDoten

i would like to see the cts'v caliper, in particular pics of the mounting locations

we did fits like this when i was working at All Mustang in Phoenix, the rear PBR brakes from the LT1 f-bodies worked insane on the rear of the fox body Mustangs

need to find someone local w/ a CTS-V

maybe i can borrow one from the local Caddy dealer for a day

NoOne

I'll be getting a Viper caliper in the next day or two, will work for mock up.

gothamZ06

Any thoughts on the rear caliper?

Also what are you thinking in terms of rotors? I was thinking of either C6 Z rotors, Z51 rotors, or Baer 14"ers.

SteveDoten

i would use the front ctsv rotor and let the cnc make the 6 into 5 lug

the mounting on the ctsv caliper runs front/aft instead of the c5 which is inboard/outboard, this is like the mounting of the 'new for 2003' gsxr1000 caliper

Hawk pad fitments, 3 different flavors for ctsv's
http://www.hawkperformance.com/parts...d+Parts+%3E%3E

SUBIE WRX STI USES THE SAME FRONT PADS, ALONG W/ THE MITSU EVO'S

VIPER 2ND GEN
LOTUS
WRX STI
EVOLUTION
PORCHE 968?