Ag-z06

Trail Boss posed a question in another thread about whether or not an HPDE organizer has liability coverage for its instructors. Got me thinking about all the HPDE's we do for different orgs.

Just what is the liability for us, the volunteer instructors at HPDE's?
The organization running the event gets a signed waiver (which is probably only as good as the paper it's on), but what is there for the instructors to prevent getting sued if the student wrecks?
Makes me think deeply about what my personal situation would be if a student were to take legal action.

Instructors and HPDE organizers, jump in with comments...

TRAIL BOSS

As a former flight instructor, I can only say that liability insurance is a must.

I would assume the same courts of law pertain to all you guys who hop in the right seat of a high performance machine at the hands of a "newbie" with no set of contols on your side as there are in an airplane.

Falcon

First of all, Adam, no insurance will prevent law suits.

If there is a serious injury or, God forbid, a death, regardless of who is at fault or why an incident occurs at the track, you can rest assured if your fingerprints are anywhere on that track you have a good chance of being sued.

I have a personal umbrella policy that protects me after all my other insurance gives up. Hopefully, that will never be called into play, but it does offer some protection.

Keep in mind, even though you might not be instructing, but at a HPDE as a participant, if you are involved in an incident where serious personal injury or death is involved, you stand a good chance of being a party to a suit.

Don't rely on the organizers insurance to protect you. It might be there when you need and it may not. I'd recommend everyone look at obtaining a personal umbrella policy. It offers some protection that might not otherwise be available. It isn't that expensive.

John Shiels

No matter what wavier a student signs they can still take you to court. Do you have the money to get a lawyer at 250 per hour? If the HPDE event lawyer is supplied is that in your best interest? Are you an employee of the HPDE event when instructing? If you get hurt do they have comp for you? Usually you are getting paid in a discounted fee.

Falcon

Trailboss brings up something about controls they told us in a PCA instructor clinic I once attended, NEVER GRAB THE STEERING WHEEL. Once you do that, some Johnny Cochran can make the case that you either interferred or caused the incident.

TRAIL BOSS

In an airplane as an instructor you've got to get on the contols at the last possible instance. No way, would one want to grab the wheel in a car as there is more harm than good that will come from that. Plus, many have in-car video that make for great viewing in court.

Ag-z06

Totally agree with what you say here, Jody. Anybody can sue anybody else for anything, if there's a willing lawyer and no insurance will prevent that. But will your personal umbrella policy cover you for instructing at HPDEs or might there be exclusions, as with our auto policies?
I don't assume that the event organizers will do much of anything to protect the instructors in case of a problem.
I guess I'm just calling out the huge amount of personal liability that we, as instructors, are taking on by getting into the right seat of someone else's car. Most of us are weekend warriors with lots of track experience and/or some level of instructor training; however, very very few of us would be classified as "professional" instructors.
Students need to understand that while we get discounted or even free track time for our efforts, that we are not employees for the sponsoring organization.

varkwso

I am no lawyer or HR puke but we are "defacto" employees, or at the very least a contractor, for the organization that puts on the event since we are "compensated" for our time. I have even been paid to instruct - not much - but paid.

In the end you probably need an umbrella if you do this.

In some states liability is limited to negligence - SC and almost all states for horse events - you go and you accept the liability of a horse going nuts (ours do it all the time - one reason why I will take a student in a car ANYTIME overt a dang horse) and hurting you.

John Shiels

Who pays if an instructor gets injured?

Falcon

Adam, the personal umbrella is there for the purpose of covering the other exclusions. I'm sure that certain unlawful activities are excluded, e.g. injuries sustained while robbing a bank and stuff like that, but other than that, most everything should be covered up to the limits of the policy.

My umbrella policy costs ~ $300 - $400 per year.

Falcon

That's a good point, John.

A word of caution to some of you guys. Some company sponsored health insurance policies exclude coverage for these type of activities. Check your policy for those exculsion.

varkwso

Even if you are covered it can take months to get it resolved - I just got it resolved for my son's accident last November. Still getting sued by the other party - but that is another issue.....

The Ghost of Dale

John,

You hit on some very good points.....
The Attorney's just sit and drool over stuff like this.
These are great points. The NCM has had incidents of a much smaller nature, in the past at autocross events (not small to those injured).

Let's just hope that safety, is first, I am sure with Tom in charge it will be.......

Gee I miss this stuff....

John Shiels

To much thought for this subject and I'll be a waxer

Ag-z06

Sometimes the way you drive could be considered as dangerous and illegal as bank robbing...

The Ghost of Dale

I hear ya John,

But they are very good point's.

And one's that should be addressed, before and not after

OUR, beloved NCM comes out with egg on it's face...

varkwso

Falcon

I've been told that by many people!

C5ontrack

I've been an instructor for 3 years, and never thought about the RISK from a suit... from my student's accident OR from another student's accident on the track at the same time !!!. As was said above, a Johnny Coc lawyer can implicate anyone and everyone.
Its a scary thought and good points have been raised. I've never been paid other than free track time and lunch vouchers, which could be contrued as 'compensation'. It needs a real lawyer to assess our liability.

Organizers like to give corvette owners students who have corvettes... makes sense. Any of you guys sit in the right seat of a Z06 with a new or semi experience student? These cars (in stock form) are so good and fast, SCARY fast, especially if the student THINKS he knows what he's doing. Yeah I know ,'...ask the student to slow down, bring him in for a talk...', but still, I'm thinking the RISK of him going backwards at 140 mph ( I saw this at VIR last week) is not worth the $300 savings for the weekend PLUS you lose the time to be setting up YOUR car. Thanks for this thread, its put the clincher on my mental debate..I'll pay up front for my fun and avoid what seems like a LARGE risk, for little reward.

John Shiels

I went once with someone at Pocono they didn't listen. They spun around a few times at the end of the straight. I have been in a bunch of fast things in my life but that ride was the definition of helpless. When you go to a track 100 mph seems like nothing, until you hit something. Your instructing and the gut slams another vehicle are you responsible as your are the so called expert?

People with instructors are usually just starting and have only their basic seat belt and not much extra. Their was a guy at Lime Rock who had work done at the Chevy dealer. He came to the end of the straight and guess what the rear caliper was loose. The the piston popped out and no brakes I worry enough about my own car I don't need to jump in a car I know nothing about. The slowest track I know still lets beginners hit 120 mph. Cars on these tracks are way to fast to be sitting like a Potato Head and yelling instructions and hoping for the best. Most people are OK but it only takes one to mess you up physically, financially or both!