Comfortably Numb

Are there alternatives to using a clay bar? How else would you get contaminants off/out of the finish? I would assume if you did not remove them with something, then polishing with a PC would only "grab" the contaminants anyways and mar the finish of the car, as you polish it.

bugman

In fairness,

1. on this board, 75% or more are Clay faithful. Even though both clay and polish are abrasive materials, and both grind the surface of the paint, clay users believe that only clay can smooth the surface of the paint. The "SELL" is that the clay shears off the stuck in stuff at the surface level of the paint (like shaving off your whiskers with a razor). To do this with an abrasive polish and a 6.5" pad, you'd have to seriously erode your clearcoat (like removing your entire layer of skin to make your face smooth, rather than just shaving it).
2. Me : in the VAST minority Clay is overrated. I cannot tell with my eyes which cars are clayed and which are not, and that's what matters to me.

I look at cars, I don't walk around the lot with a sandwhich bag on my hand feeling them. I'll believe that clay may have very small benefits - so small it's not worth it for most of us.

The alternative is simply to polish out scratches and swirls to get a nice smooth finish, then apply your sealant layers. Nothing tricky about that. Especially for a Vette, which is usually garaged, and kept clean, this is perfectly adequate to give you a showcar finish.

JoshVette

Bugman, I respectfully disagree.

Question:
If you have tons of small pinhead sized tree sap coating the top surface of the car, which are you going to reach for? The Clay or the Buffer? Not every car is a Corvette either, they don't all stay in the garage....

I'll tell you that after I've clay'd like crazy, I went to buff off with the PC and it didn't even effect the sap in the least.

I had to pull the clay back out and go at it again till it was perfect.

It's not always about what looks best, claybaring is proven to remove bonded contamination.

If you were standing 5 feet away you really wouldn't see those little sap speckles, but if you had the exact same car and color side by side, I'd bet you notice something different and slightly more shiny about the uncontaminated car.

For swirls and scratch, yes buff away.

If you do not clarbar the car before buffing, you're not neccessarily going to tear it all up unless there are larger particles stuck in the clear, then it is possible. More then likely (if using a PC) it will just glide right over the contamination, removing some, but to get the ultimate reflection you should claybar and then machine polish any swirls out.

Josh

TOGWT

While I respect your opinion and your choice not to use clay, being a perfectionist the paint surface would have to be clean, not just look clean, but that's just my way.

My supporting argument is that polishing can result in smoothing and rounding the surface contamination, therby making it significantly harder to remove later.

Although a polish / compound will remove the contamination there is a risk is that the abrasive particles will become embedded in the foam pad, which will cause surface scratches / marring by making the foam /polish more abrasive than necessary, thereby removing more clear coat than was intended

And I do realize that being an abrasive product clay will inevitably produce surface marring that will need to be polished to remove

cadguymark

how clean is clean? by sight? by feel? by electron microscope?
unless you have a clean room for a garage, the finish can pick up contaniments as fast as you remove them.

TOGWT

That is such a well stated, logical and eloquent response I’m lost for words

JoshVette

cadguymark

tree sap? the first thing to do is try to remove with chemicals or a simple wash, only when it has been determined a nonabrasive method will not work should an abrasive method be used.

I think we are past the point where it is no longer necessary to debate whether claybar is an abrasive or not, now all we have to do is debate how and when to use it.

If an abrasive is necessary, then proper selection of the abrasive is critical. Generally you want to use the finest abrasive that is necessary to get the job done. Then finish with progressively finer abrasive. Sounds simple, but there are far too many Tim "the Tool Man" Taylors that cannot seem to grasp these simple concepts.

Since ultimately I want the car to look good, I go by sight, rather than feel. Of the senses, sight can detect differences far better than feel. But I suppose some may go by smell, which is even more perceptive.

JoshVette

Which do you think would LOOK better?
A rough bumpy surface with perfect paint underneath??
or a smooth perfectly flat surface with perfect paint underneath??

Since you're responding to my post about the sap, I'll reply back.

I tried to remove the tiny sap particles by washing and they remained. Next I tried bug and tar remover to no effect. Next I even tried 3M Adhesive Remover and they still remained, so my last choice was to claybar and it took them off, however it was not easy since they were baked on the car from the sun.
You only have to do this once or twice to know what type of contamination will be effected what type of process....next time I won't even waste my time trying all the other things I'll just reach straight for the claybar.

I'm sure that's simple enough for you to grasp "Tool Man".
Some of us do this for a living you know.
And yes it does help to smell the clear coat as well.
Josh

Ticman

Given how microscopically thin wax is. It is reasonable to think that embedded contaminates could stick out above the wax. If the said contaminate are metal it will oxidize. Once this happens, it can and will become a larger problem.

I have seen this on cars that were waxed frequently and started developing little dark spots. More so on white paint. My opinion is clay first especially if it’s a new car, then polish. Even if you just chop off the top of the contaminate it leaves a level surface that the wax can cover. This will at the very least slow down the oxidation process.

Just my .02

Tic

JoshVette

To really answer the origional poster's question about alternatives to claybaring that will do the same thing......

No, none to my knowledge.

Josh

cadguymark

actualy wasn't responding to your post, thought that was the original posters question, about tree sap but I see it was a general question

sure it saves time to go directly to claybar if you have the experience to use it correctly, to not cause damage while removing the contaminents, as I am sure you do, that would be the correct thing to do, if you can save time it's better for everyone involved.

But for Joe Average with less experience it isn't, and for pro wannabees it isn't either, they could easily create more problems than they solve. That's something pros seem to forget, many of the people here do not have the experience, some of the posts have been moved from other forums.

The original question was about what alternatives there was to claybar. I was merely trying to point out that he should use the least invasive methods first. When he is experienced as you, he won't be asking the question.

IAIA

Funny point.

But, I also disagree. In the past, one thing I always envied about new cars is how smooth they are. All of my "used" cars had a degree of roughness that normal polishing could not remove. Even when shiny, they weren't smooth, and I think that affected their reflectivity. Now, after claying the car, it's smooth like new. It's part of the overall aesthetic, even if it doesn't increase the shine. So I use it when necessary.

Stingray23

So using a clay bar will remove sap? I have some on the trunk area of my ZO6 and it is dry and baked on. I initially tried removing it with a wash,and it did remove some, but the rest baked on the car from the sun. I will give the claybar a shot, I have 2 from my zaino kit. What kind of liquid solution should I use with the cllaybar?

steve8

Some use a QD. I have used a solution of Z7/water in a spray bottle, and plenty of it.

bugman

Some very good arguments above - and all by very experienced and respected detailers. You know I cannot disagree with your experience.

My grumpiness about clay is just based on three very bad experiences with marring - and this was using two different products that are probably the two most popular in here. Including from my favorite sealant line. I just don't have the heart to bash them in open forum by name.

But it wasn't Sonus green - so I'm still hoping that that might be a product that won't "improve" my finish by sanding it down into oblivion.

So far, all I've seen is that the finish is "improved" after the clay makes it look worse than if I had wet sanded, then I spend an hour buffing out the damage. Anyone remember the story about "ROCK SOUP"?


Well, yes, I think we do agree to the answer to the poster's question: There's no substitute for the function of clay.

Hey - here's an idea to tweak you guys - have you reached a conclusion about the "liquid" clay product out there?

BaBa Booey

I'm with you bugman. Marring is the dirty little secret of clay bars that no one likes to talk about (some refuse to even believe it can happen). My 'vette didn't have a single scratch or "marr" on it before clay...After clay, covered in tiny scratches or marring. My car is black so they show more, you even need a strong light to really see them. But they're there.
Before the flames hit let me say...
I kept it well lubricated
I used very light pressure
I did not drop the bar then continue using it
I clayed exactly as the instructions said and still did damage. I won't be using clay again.

That's my 2 cents.

JoshVette

Did you use the same side to do the whole car or did you turn it and fold it as you went??

Some aggressive clays will mare no matter what. And if the surface is already perfectly smooth then you should not clay either, you can mare the clear coat if there's no contamination to lift out, then you're just rubbing the clear. Kind of like rubbing your skin raw.

Josh

bugman

yes, I know, I know -- been there as well, as have lots of other members. Problem is that when you speak up, you're attacked with 100 things that you MUST have done wrong !

Identical to taking your Vette to the dealer for the 5th time with DBS (Dead Batter Syndrme). They'll ALWAYS insist that YOU did something wrong to make the car battery die, even though it happens to thousands of other Vette owners. It's a good strategy to keep people feeling ashamed and stupid so they don't speak up anymore.

Thanks for speaking up I'm a dummy like you
I have ruined the finishes of 3 cars with clay, and my Vette battery is always dead !

gmblack3

I don't think you "ruined" the finishes of those cars. Did a light polish bring them back or did they require a repaint? Next time I detail a black vette and if I get some marring, I will try some ZAIO by hand to see if it will remove the marring.

The yellow C6 I am detailing with 13k miles had excessive bonded contaminants on the surface. This is a garage kept car. Zaino clay or blue clay magic clay would not remove enough of the contaminants, well they might of but it would of taken more then a few hours.

Here is what the clay magic looked like after doing the horz surface of the rt front fender and a 1x2' section of the hood.



So being that I was going to polish the car, I went out and got some clay magic red clay, they call it medium and I call it aggressive. It still took me 1 hour to do all of the horz surfaces of the car. I would call the marring excessive with the red clay. Being the car is yellow I have no pics of the marring. I do not advise anyone to use this aggressive clay unless you are polishing.