Well Mod season is upon us again and in full swing! I get alot of questions regarding what mods to do, what order and what's the best bang for the buck!
There a couple of ways to go about this-one way of looking at this is "old school(heads and cam) versus new school( Forced induction/blower).
First let's breakdown costs of each, I'm assuming that you already have headers.
Heads and Cam-let's get the "best of the best" here so we have to use AFR or TFS heads:
Heads, AFR or TFS $2300
Fast 92mm intake $800
90 mm TB $350
Roller Rockers $400
Camshaft $450
Pushrods $140
lifters $240
Double roller timing chain $150
Melling oil pump $180
Underdrive pulley $225
New belts $100
Gaskets $200
Cold air intake $250
porting of the Fast intake $200
porting the TB $150
ARP head studs, cam bolts, crank bolt $400
Total cost of parts $6535 US dollars
Labour to install and tune say, $1700
Total cost $8235
Power increase, depends on your cam-if you want BIG POWER say 450-480 rwhp. I've never seen anyone make 500 rwhp around these parts-the Internet well, everyone makes that kind of power. Don't go by what people make on the Internet-strap it on a dyno and get proof-before and after the mods-doing a dyno after you've spent this much money is silly-you'll never know what you gained-the before and after is what your looking for.
Example of well executed heads and cam combo with a streetable cam,
BTW-anything over 234 degrees of duration is not steetable-streetable is when your grandmother can take your car through a Tim Horten's drive through and order a coffee without stalling the car and spilling your coffee.
Now on to a popular forced induction option-is the blower-were an authorized dealer/installer for A&A Superchargers, ECS superchargers, Procharger and TTIx turbo kits.
Let's use the popular A&A supercharger kit with new self contained Si trim Vortech.
A&A Supercharger kit/Si trim/self contained $5300
Total cost of parts $5300 US dollars
Professionally installed and dyno tuned before and after $2000
Total cost $7300
Power increase, 520 to 600 rwhp
Here is an example of a kit on a stock 02 Z06 with headers:
Now more importantly-look at the torque-this is what pushes you back in your seat-let's compare this to the heads and cam shall we?
No comparison when you see the graphs
So what are the pro's and cons of each setup?
Well let's look at cost first-Blower $7300 versus $8235-bet you didn't think the heads and cam would cost almost $1000 more? Now we could oof used a "budget head" but if you want "big power" only AFR's or TFS will cut it.
Let's look at the heads and cams
Pro's
60's muscle car, shake, rattle and roll
Con's
Fuel economy suffers in the city
Will not pass an E-test( don't get caught by the ministry with a random "tailpipe" sniffer)
Lack of "low speed" driveabilty( with big cams-234+ in size)
"Stinky" exhaust smell at idle
Now let's look at the blower
Pro's
Car drives like stock
Will pass E-test-no need for multiple tunes
Fuel economy is not affected in normal driving
Easily reversible-without "opening" the motor
Want more power-just change the pulley!
Con's
Slight whistle sound
Your tires will hate you!!!!!
So there you have it-a fair comparison. Don't get me wrong-we can do either for you but I think you should know the aspects of each and since we have done so many of each combo we can prove it-not tell you to compare it to a car on the Internet.
That's why I always tell people to plan ahead, don't do mods now that you'll regret later-do it once and enjoy the car. If your already happy-then DON'T TOUCH IT!!!!, DRIVE IT!!!!!!!!
I've been down both roads more than once-so I can honestly tell you that I'm speaking from experience-not from what I read on the Internet.
Good comparison, these days if i have money i would do A&A kit or if i have still little more i would do turbo setup hands down, but here are few questions arun:
SC or Turbo:
> Stock Valve springs would be strong enough to hold 500+ on 6-7 Psi boost ?
> i know not much valve train load compare to H/C package but still FI produce so much power?
> How FI cars runs on track (not drag) as they produce too much heat, and had to spend another grand on Meth kit or alcohol/water to cool down intake temp.
> How about extra i mean too much in some cases, Cylinder pressure FI cars produce which is not good in long run.
> I know belt slippage is past thing, but i still observe some FI guys experiencing now n than belt slippage and than had to consider 8-rib setup which costs another $1000 easily.
.
H/C,
> There are couple things in above can be eliminated or avoid, like Roller rockers which i think is optional not a requirement, i know needle pins puked for some but there are only may be 5% instances of those.
> Melling oil pump i think again is not necessary, may be shimmed or LS6 will be more than enough.
> The biggest plus point in H/C package is IDLE the way it shakes and sounds rough/musculer sound which most prefers (choppy idle, lopey whatever u call).
> Do not create heat as compare to FI cars,
> No need of aftermrket rads, meth kit or 8 rib setup.
> Cylinder pressure would be lot less compare to FI assuming baby to moderate size cam.
> Biggest problem of HC package is labor work, putting back to stock is tough compare to FI.
There are pros and cons compared to both H/C and FI, and is subjective to each persons needs and how they want to drive and what they want in numbers.
For folks who want little more power but not crazy .....H/C do not expect to go over 440 Rwhp as another 20-40 Rwhp in H/C comes very hard and cost double the money and always have fear it might give trouble now n than. Reaching 425-440 Rwhp in HC is piece of cake without sacrificing driveability, gas consumption, racing or even smog check.
But still FI entry level is over $8k and wheras a decent mild H/C package would be under $5k.
Heck if have $10k i would consider 402 or higher stroker with a mild baby cam and ported heads and call it a day, torque in strokers are broad and come early in rpm and it will be all the way to redline which is always a fun.
But if i dont want to tear motor and have $8k than i would go with A&A kit and dont turn back.
But seems like FI cars are taking over H/C and most likely will dominate in future, and eventually FI kit prices will come down even more, so most of us can afford, if so than FI kit is in my future. Infact have seen 2 members recently after thier H/C package gone wrong and now going to FI.
But right now sucks this economy i cant afford either package dang it.... still hunting for job and first time in last 10 yrs i am jobless for consecutive 2 months and still counting.
Whatever great info from u arun, u r a good man i apologize if i write anything which stirs an unpleasant lemme know.
A great writeup Arun. Thanks for the education. I for one will always wonder "how much power is enough". I particularly like your reference about driveability/streetability. In the real world this is key especially when we get the Mod bug.
Good comparison, these days if i have money i would do A&A kit or if i have still little more i would do turbo setup hands down, but here are few questions arun:
SC or Turbo:
> Stock Valve springs would be strong enough to hold 500+ on 6-7 Psi boost ?
> i know not much valve train load compare to H/C package but still FI produce so much power?
> How FI cars runs on track (not drag) as they produce too much heat, and had to spend another grand on Meth kit or alcohol/water to cool down intake temp.
> How about extra i mean too much in some cases, Cylinder pressure FI cars produce which is not good in long run.
> I know belt slippage is past thing, but i still observe some FI guys experiencing now n than belt slippage and than had to consider 8-rib setup which costs another $1000 easily.
.
H/C,
> There are couple things in above can be eliminated or avoid, like Roller rockers which i think is optional not a requirement, i know needle pins puked for some but there are only may be 5% instances of those.
> Melling oil pump i think again is not necessary, may be shimmed or LS6 will be more than enough.
> The biggest plus point in H/C package is IDLE the way it shakes and sounds rough/musculer sound which most prefers (choppy idle, lopey whatever u call).
> Do not create heat as compare to FI cars,
> No need of aftermrket rads, meth kit or 8 rib setup.
> Cylinder pressure would be lot less compare to FI assuming baby to moderate size cam.
> Biggest problem of HC package is labor work, putting back to stock is tough compare to FI.
There are pros and cons compared to both H/C and FI, and is subjective to each persons needs and how they want to drive and what they want in numbers.
For folks who want little more power but not crazy .....H/C do not expect to go over 440 Rwhp as another 20-40 Rwhp in H/C comes very hard and cost double the money and always have fear it might give trouble now n than. Reaching 425-440 Rwhp in HC is piece of cake without sacrificing driveability, gas consumption, racing or even smog check.
But still FI entry level is over $8k and wheras a decent mild H/C package would be under $5k.
Heck if have $10k i would consider 402 or higher stroker with a mild baby cam and ported heads and call it a day, torque in strokers are broad and come early in rpm and it will be all the way to redline which is always a fun.
But if i dont want to tear motor and have $8k than i would go with A&A kit and dont turn back.
But seems like FI cars are taking over H/C and most likely will dominate in future, and eventually FI kit prices will come down even more, so most of us can afford, if so than FI kit is in my future. Infact have seen 2 members recently after thier H/C package gone wrong and now going to FI.
But right now sucks this economy i cant afford either package dang it.... still hunting for job and first time in last 10 yrs i am jobless for consecutive 2 months and still counting.
Whatever great info from u arun, u r a good man i apologize if i write anything which stirs an unpleasant lemme know.
Very good comparison bro.
Well you know-I'm a track guy so every opportunity I get to flog the car I do.
Fastest I went with H/C at the track was 11.6@124-and this resulted in TOTAL CARNAGE OF MY DRIVETRAIN. In order to get a H/C car get down the car track fast, you need to let it all hang out at he launch.
Now with the FI car-no meth I was running 11.'s@133 all day-this was on a poorly prepped tracked. What's interesting here is I didn't have to leave the line hard-since I never gave up any bottom end torque like I would of with the H/C car. In fact since going blower-I have never hurt my drivetrain, compared to 4 transmissions and 4 differentials by way of H/C.
I think i would add... personal preferance to that. IMO i am still a little muscle car and when a car starts up that has a cam... Ahhh i like it, however when Frank (ontario vette) starts his car WOW you have to pull dogs and small children away so they dont get sucked in( i love it). I still like old school muscle! There are without a doubt 2 different senarios, if this were a poll check me off in the cam box.
The FI method is a great HP producer but the amount of $$ I would have to drop all at once was just too much at this time.
With the HC package I can do the mods over a period of time, bolt-ons, cam, heads, and that makes it much more sense to me.
If you have $10k in hand and willing to drop on the spot then go ahead, I did not feel this way so went in the other direction.
It wont develop near the HP of a FI car but I just love the mean sound and the Lump, Lump feeling at idle
Arun, that is what I've wanted to see. My C5 H/C is very close to a copy of what you describe with Mamo ported AFR's & Fast 90/90. Tony's recommended cam of 228/228 113* is on the edge of street-able, you cannot cut corners with your valve train @ this point. I won't quote the Mustang dyno #'s .... as you say Internet hype however is does calculate back to the crank @535hp.
I've been thinking about FI for my C6 & your comments here have pretty much confirmed what I need to do.......now which kit?
Very good comparison bro.
Well you know-I'm a track guy so every opportunity I get to flog the car I do.
Fastest I went with H/C at the track was 11.6@124-and this resulted in TOTAL CARNAGE OF MY DRIVETRAIN. In order to get a H/C car get down the car track fast, you need to let it all hang out at he launch.
Now with the FI car-no meth I was running 11.'s@133 all day-this was on a poorly prepped tracked. What's interesting here is I didn't have to leave the line hard-since I never gave up any bottom end torque like I would of with the H/C car. In fact since going blower-I have never hurt my drivetrain, compared to 4 transmissions and 4 differentials by way of H/C.
You know... i've always been a apples to apples kind of guy so... Would the same things happen to your tranny and to your diff if you launched the same way? If you have a radial on your car with all that power i'm thinking the same will happen! However your point of not having to leave the line as hard leaves me wondering about your comparo. (no offence) but if you are a drag racer... i don't know any drag racer who wants to run low et thats not hammering it on the line. Just a FYI my 2001 zo6 (385 hp) stock i ran at cayuga on f 1's 12.6 flat, were you running a tire on your h/c car? I'm pretty sure i would be able to put my car in the 11's on a tire.(had to baby mine)
This was not intended to stir the pot just MY own opinion.
Since purchasing my 02 Z06 the only engine mods to date are air intake, TB, headers, xpipe and exhaust. Best dyno run was 392.1 rwhp, 375.7 fpt.
I've done track days at Mosport and weekend warrier Autocross events but overall the Z on on the street the majority of the time. I love the lopy sound of a good H/C car vs the whistle of FI.
Considering I will keep this car for my son and that 90% of the time this Z is on the street I would go with the H/C package.
You know... i've always been a apples to apples kind of guy so... Would the same things happen to your tranny and to your diff if you launched the same way? If you have a radial on your car with all that power i'm thinking the same will happen! However your point of not having to leave the line as hard leaves me wondering about your comparo. (no offence) but if you are a drag racer... i don't know any drag racer who wants to run low et thats not hammering it on the line. Just a FYI my 2001 zo6 (385 hp) stock i ran at cayuga on f 1's 12.6 flat, were you running a tire on your h/c car? I'm pretty sure i would be able to put my car in the 11's on a tire.(had to baby mine)
This was not intended to stir the pot just MY own opinion.
The radial tire is what kills the drivetrain-because there is no absorption of the "shock" on the launch.
If you check out the "quickest Z06" records-you'll see I'm still there listed with my 11.65@117.75-way back in 02. Basically I had to sidestep the clutch on the line-where as with the blower-I could just leave off idle and still get 1.6 sixty foots to the tune of 10.4@136 on the stock motor.
The FI method is a great HP producer but the amount of $$ I would have to drop all at once was just too much at this time.
With the HC package I can do the mods over a period of time, bolt-ons, cam, heads, and that makes it much more sense to me.
If you have $10k in hand and willing to drop on the spot then go ahead, I did not feel this way so went in the other direction.
It wont develop near the HP of a FI car but I just love the mean sound and the Lump, Lump feeling at idle
I agree-the "upfront" cost is greater but if you add up all the cost over the 'entire" period of time then it's just best to wait and do it all at once.
Where not in a race here unless you want to up the "Jones" all the time-
This is coming from personal experience, I did headers, cold air, then this cam, that cam, these heads, those heads-put the car back to stock then put the blower on-never looked back-there is no comarison.
On April 1st A&A had a sale on there supercharger kits-$4500, there is no Heads and Cam combo that can compare with those numbers.
There is no wrong or right way-it's the way your most comfortable. The sole purpose was to compare a "full boogie" H/C versus a blower-the blower wins hands down when basing cost.
Location: AKA Harvey Mushman-I know just enough to be dangerous "Those who sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither"- B. Franklin
Arun, I agree with everything you wrote. One other cost that a 6 speed blower car will have right away is a decent clutch. The H/C guy might get a few miles out of their stocker before it goes up in smoke.
Where have you been?
Well my car has the best of both worlds...albeit built by two very professional organizations at two different times.....
Part 1:
My first stage was performed by ECS in Spring of 06'...
The mods at that point included :
ECS custom grind cam
ARH's
FAST 90/90
Textralia Clutch (which gets better with age and hp IMHO)
Vararam
Custom tune
I must state I didn't get a base line dyno done but after the mods and close to $9000.00 later I was safely at around 430/380. Safe bet to say I picked up around 100 rwhp from the modifications. Car was a beast and ran great and I was ecstatic with the results.....
PART 2:
So.....in fall of 08' A & A ran a great special for $5200.00 for their S trim blower.....
I jumped at the opportunity and purchased the blower from A & A (no tax as I was Canadian)....the blower arrived 3 days later in Houlton Maine and I brought it across the border with just having to pay the HST on the product.
I contracted Arun to do my install in October of 2008. Baseline dyno for my 01Z was around 415/365 due to a frayed plug wire. Install for the blower was $2000.00 CDN which include tuning. Car at its final dyno tune put down 600/540 .....that would be an approximate 165-180 +/- rwhp increase
If I knew then what I know now I would have gone for the blower hands down first....no question. More power....cheaper in cost....and easier to install (less turn around time)....
Very nice little piece!
"Mild or Wild" Definitely personal preference directs your choice, simply match the mod to the goal.
Arun, your contribution to this section of the forum is informative and appreciated.
Keep up the great presence.
Frank
Last edited by ontariovette; 04-05-2009 at 01:55 PM.
Reason: chose to choice
This is coming from personal experience, I did headers, cold air, then this cam, that cam, these heads, those heads-put the car back to stock then put the blower on-never looked back-there is no comarison.
On April 1st A&A had a sale on there supercharger kits-$4500, there is no Heads and Cam combo that can compare with those numbers.
There is no wrong or right way-it's the way your most comfortable. The sole purpose was to compare a "full boogie" H/C versus a blower-the blower wins hands down when basing cost.
You have no idea how close I came to jumping on this deal. What an amazing price and for $$ to HP gains best route to go bar none in my opinion.
The radial tire is what kills the drivetrain-because there is no absorption of the "shock" on the launch.
If you check out the "quickest Z06" records-you'll see I'm still there listed with my 11.65@117.75-way back in 02. Basically I had to sidestep the clutch on the line-where as with the blower-I could just leave off idle and still get 1.6 sixty foots to the tune of 10.4@136 on the stock motor.
I will agree that the breaker of parts is the give factor in the tires no question. Thats why i make the comment "apples to apples" All thing being equal you still have to baby the blower, because if you side stepped the clutch as you said you would break the same parts or more? Would you say that is accurate?
I will agree that the breaker of parts is the give factor in the tires no question. Thats why i make the comment "apples to apples" All thing being equal you still have to baby the blower, because if you side stepped the clutch as you said you would break the same parts or more? Would you say that is accurate?
Nope-no need to sidestep the clutch on a blower-because torque builds faster. The H/C if you notice really don't see much of an increase in torque-and peak torque occurs at 4800-5200 and it's probably around 400-420ft/lbs. Where as a blower car will be making 100 ft/lbs more at the same rpm. So sidestepping the blower is just going to "blow off" the tires. But you have to sidestep the H/C car to get to that rpm to leave the line hard.
Here's a good vid-watch my car-it's leaving softly pretty much off idle, no powershifting. This is a stock motor with a blower, this is even with the stock factory cats.
Location: Mississauga, Ontario I know all the answers it's the questions I don't understand
When you get the big numbers on the chassis dyno with the blowers do you then change pulleys to run on the street ? *ie your example of granny driving it through the drive thru ?
__________________ 1980 Corvette, 427ci Motown SBC 465RWHP N/A so far,500 is the goal, AFR 227 Eliminators
T&D Shaft Rockers,Vic Jr, XR286R solid roller,248/254 dur .640" lift 10.6:1 Mahle pistons
Eagle stroker rods, 4 in. Callies DragonSlayer crank, 825 Drag Race Demon, 3 in exhaust Paint by Dream Car Garage
Nope-no need to sidestep the clutch on a blower-because torque builds faster. The H/C if you notice really don't see much of an increase in torque-and peak torque occurs at 4800-5200 and it's probably around 400-420ft/lbs. Where as a blower car will be making 100 ft/lbs more at the same rpm. So sidestepping the blower is just going to "blow off" the tires. But you have to sidestep the H/C car to get to that rpm to leave the line hard.
Here's a good vid-watch my car-it's leaving softly pretty much off idle, no powershifting. This is a stock motor with a blower, this is even with the stock factory cats.
Corvette Store
Mod Seasons is here-Blower versus Heads and Cam?
