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So GM is not releasing information about the Z06 because it serves no point to inform us about this car until they need/can produce it. You'll have a hard time selling that theory.
I am not trying to sell anything. Its about data analysis, car delivery management and expectation management.
Today, it takes the number one dealer in the USA slightly less than one year to deliver a car to a customer. You can imagine delivery times for the rest of the other dealers in the USA.
It does nobody good (neither GM nor the pre order customers nor new customers) to say here is the Z06 and like it or not pre orders will be fulfilled in 18 months and if you put your order in today you may get your car in two years plus.
This looks like one of those insane conspiracy theory graphics that anti-vaxxer nutjobs post on Facebook.
It's also dated, the chart needs adjusted as the U.S. coal use has declined since that graphic was made. I remember first seeing that graphic about 10 years ago. There is no date on the graphic so I don't know how old it is, but I know it's been out there for a long while.
Data should always be dated and quantifiable, that graphic lacks both, that's the usual sign it's off.
Last edited by flyingbunnys; 07-05-2021 at 09:43 AM.
It's also dated, the chart needs adjusted as the U.S. coal use has declined since that graphic was made. I remember first seeing that graphic about 10 years ago. There is no date on the graphic so I don't know how old it is, but I know it's been out there for a long while.
Data should always be dated and quantifiable, that graphic lacks both, that's the usual sign it's off.
Hmm, if you are referring to my Graphic no way did you see the US at that low a % Coal for electricity production 10 years ago and China was higher. My pic was made with best data available ~ 1 to 2 years ago. We're still pissing in the ocean thinking if the US switches to all EV's it will solve the Worlds' CO2 issue!
Tried to get that latest info I show below. Note the one issue folks have a hard time understanding: that Motorbikes, used widely throughout Asia (as noted Vietnam with 90 million people has 45 million Motorbikes) pollute a lot more that a car. Some reasons, they operate at WOT much of the time, no CATS etc. Many other less developed area use them as well.
Agree 100%. I'll postulate a 2.a) E-Ray testing proved that car was just as quick if not quicker than the Z06 and something had to be done to create a greater performance delta between the two: i.e. turbos.
Except you can add all the hp to the Z06 you want, and it still will not be quicker then the E-Ray - at least 0-60. The E-Ray should add 100+ hp/torque at zero rpm to the front wheels and thus will not be traction limited. The quarter mile may be a different story.
Hmm, if you are referring to my Graphic no way did you see the US at that low a % Coal for electricity production 10 years ago and China was higher. My pic was made with best data available ~ 1 to 2 years ago. We're still pissing in the ocean thinking if the US switches to all EV's it will solve the Worlds' CO2 issue!
Tried to get that latest info I show below. Note the one issue folks have a hard time understanding: that Motorbikes, used widely throughout Asia (as noted Vietnam with 90 million people has 45 million Motorbikes) pollute a lot more that a car. Some reasons, they operate at WOT much of the time, no CATS etc. Many other less developed area use them as well.
If you are looking at coal use the U.S. places third at only 8.5% of the world's use, China is over 50% with India over 10%. Your graph doesn't have the percentages, but the U.S. portion looked too large to me. A direct comparison between the two countries would show the U.S. at about 1/6th China's total, your graph looks closer to 1/5th
Last edited by flyingbunnys; 07-05-2021 at 03:32 PM.
If you are looking at coal use the U.S. places third at only 8.5% of the world's use, China is over 50% with India over 10%. Your graph doesn't have the percentages, but the U.S. portion looked too large to me. A direct comparison between the two countries would show the U.S. at about 1/6th China's total, your graph looks closer to 1/5th
You have to look exactly at what my pie chart said. It was made on Excel with the right values at the time. It says the amount of coal used to produce electric power. As the bar graph I just added above shows, China produces ~40% MORE electricity that we do in the US. And a recent visit to a Duke Power installation with my ASME local section, they are abandoning and old coal fired plant and had 6 huge gas turbine generates and planning more. They used to be for peak shaving, but from a cost standpoint and ability to have on like in 30 minutes make them a viable choice powered with cheap natural gas during off peak as well! Coal will decline in the US for economic reasons.
Considering my observation from that 2 1/2 week Viking Cruise a few years ago (that included 4 plane trips so it was a cross section but not statistically valid observation) it looked like many rural areas had little electricity. However the mass of folks in the big cites no doubt made up for it. Also much of the industry I have worked with in the US in my career; Power including Nuclear, Ships, Structural Steel etc is now all in China. Heck the new Oakland Bay Bridge orthotropic steel deck was imported from China.
Competitors will have the same gestation issues that GM has so the delay (if there is one) won't make the car be behind the competition. The Pandemic affects everybody, not just GM. It will come when it comes. With the factory at max production (based on parts supply) with almost all cars ordered by individual consumers, how would GM be able to build the car without messing up current Customer deliveries? Somebody who has been waiting for more than a year may not appreciate being bumped because a few people want Z06s.
Bill
Thank you Bill.
People are acting like the current "laws of the land" (parts shortages, etc) effect ONLY GM.
So for all of you that think this is some sinister GM deal, here's some REALITY:
1. How far behind is GM on filling SOLD C8 Stingray orders? Keep in mind that in a normal year, Bowling Green can produce 35,000+ cars. So, 2020/2021 should have made 70,000 C8's. Reality is the number is closer to 40,000. Since the Z06 (and every other variant) is produced at BGA, and EVERY Z06 produced means one less Stingray produced. Now, if you're a person who just got moved from 2021 to 2022 (like I got moved from 2020 to 2021), you wouldn't be happy to be pushed back EVEN more by BGA making Z06's.
2. GM has NEVER even HINTED at a launch/production date for the C8 Z06. NEVER.
3. Please show me all these hot rod NEW sports cars that are on their way in the next year that are going to obsolete the C8 Z06 when it comes out...
4. Please don't drag out the 25 variants that Porsche will intro of the new 911...totally different situation, as 911 production is NOT running at capacity like BGA is. You can go to your local Porsche dealer RIGHT now and buy a regular 911 off the floor or order one and get one a hell of a lot faster than if you did the same on a C8 Stingray (GT3 NOT included in that statement)
PS. I DO think the Z06 is late. But there are PLENTY of reasons, that we ALL know, and to suggest that it's something sinister shows a remarkable lack of understanding about car production.
Except you can add all the hp to the Z06 you want, and it still will not be quicker then the E-Ray - at least 0-60. The E-Ray should add 100+ hp/torque at zero rpm to the front wheels and thus will not be traction limited. The quarter mile may be a different story.
Herein lies the problem with the industry over-reliance on 0-60 or 0-100 metrics. All of these stats belong to EV's now.
We need to stop pretending that there aren't (a LOT of) Corvette buyers who are hyper-focused on numbers like HP, 0-60, etc and the E-Ray will scratch that itch better than the Z06 will. For GM, this is good news, as that is a market that is easily satisfied.
4. Please don't drag out the 25 variants that Porsche will intro of the new 911...totally different situation, as 911 production is NOT running at capacity like BGA is. You can go to your local Porsche dealer RIGHT now and buy a regular 911 off the floor or order one and get one a hell of a lot faster than if you did the same on a C8 Stingray (GT3 NOT included in that statement).
LOL no you absolutely CANNOT buy a "regular" 911 off the floor. You couldn't do it a year ago, you can't do it now. Go drive. by your local Porsche dealer and it's nothing but Taycans, Panameras, and Macans.
Want to order a 992 Carrera S? You'll be LUCKY to get one in 8 months, and you're probably playing ADM for that allocation unless you have a relationship with the dealer. But is Porsche hiding in their little hidey-hole and not actively testing and marketing cars due for '22 and '23? Nope.
What is GM doing? The Z06 "isn't ready" because someone F'd up, the engine has problems, or there are second thoughts about what segment this car needs to be marketed to. Period. No, they've made no promises to anyone, or even acknowledged, the Z06. Now explain to me how that in any way is relevant to this discussion.
Last edited by Skullbussa; 07-05-2021 at 10:03 PM.
LOL no you absolutely CANNOT buy a "regular" 911 off the floor. You couldn't do it a year ago, you can't do it now. Go drive. by your local Porsche dealer and it's nothing but Taycans, Panameras, and Macans.
Want to order a 992 Carrera S? You'll be LUCKY to get one in 8 months, and you're probably playing ADM for that allocation unless you have a relationship with the dealer. But is Porsche hiding in their little hidey-hole and not actively testing and marketing cars due for '22 and '23? Nope.
What is GM doing? The Z06 "isn't ready" because someone F'd up, the engine has problems, or there are second thoughts about what segment this car needs to be marketed to. Period. No, they've made no promises to anyone, or even acknowledged, the Z06. Now explain to me how that in any way is relevant to this discussion.
LOL no you absolutely CANNOT buy a "regular" 911 off the floor. You couldn't do it a year ago, you can't do it now. Go drive. by your local Porsche dealer and it's nothing but Taycans, Panameras, and Macans.
Want to order a 992 Carrera S? You'll be LUCKY to get one in 8 months, and you're probably playing ADM for that allocation unless you have a relationship with the dealer. But is Porsche hiding in their little hidey-hole and not actively testing and marketing cars due for '22 and '23? Nope.
What is GM doing? The Z06 "isn't ready" because someone F'd up, the engine has problems, or there are second thoughts about what segment this car needs to be marketed to. Period. No, they've made no promises to anyone, or even acknowledged, the Z06. Now explain to me how that in any way is relevant to this discussion.
I don't really have a clue what you're talking about...
You haven't seen the NUMEROUS Z06 mule videos/pictures that have been published for the last YEAR? Strike your "actively testing and marketing" comment.
"The engine has problems": Show me ONE article that REMOTELY hints at that.
I think the Z06 is LATE because of a tremendous backlog of Stingray orders, NOT because it's not ready. And having no date mentioned by GM IS pertinent because how is it late if they haven't told you when it's going to be released? You can "guess" it's late (hell, I think it's late), but neither you or I or anyone outside of GM KNOWS it's late.
You say you can stroll into a Porsche dealer tomorrow, order a 911, and have it in 8 months. Think you can stroll into a Chevy dealer tomorrow, order a C8 Stingray, and have it in 8 months? I'll help: NO, you can't. The biggest Corvette dealer in the land tells people 12 months or more.
On Thursday Dodge is scheduled to tease a hybrid/EV that's going to be on a "C8 Zora" level of performance. And it's going to be produced 8 years before the Zora at this rate. I just don't want Chevy to fall too far behind with being content with producing cars with 495hp.
On Thursday Dodge is scheduled to tease a hybrid/EV that's going to be on a "C8 Zora" level of performance. And it's going to be produced 8 years before the Zora at this rate. I just don't want Chevy to fall too far behind with being content with producing cars with 495hp.
All Dodge makes is heavy land barges these days. Even if it's as quick in a straight line doesn't mean it's as fast in all around performance/lap times. For the millionth time, Corvette is a SPORTS CAR, not a drag car.
So no, it will not be "C8 Zora level of performance".
Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 07-06-2021 at 09:26 AM.
What is GM doing? The Z06 "isn't ready" because someone F'd up, the engine has problems, or there are second thoughts about what segment this car needs to be marketed to. Period. No, they've made no promises to anyone, or even acknowledged, the Z06. Now explain to me how that in any way is relevant to this discussion.
C8 backlog is very relevant to this discussion. In fact it is among the few if not THE ONLY fact ascertainable with data.
The rest is twilight zone whisperings from the other side....
Except that our trusted friends of insiders keep saying it's "not done". That's pretty much the only semi-reliable info we have on the car.
I don't know if it (Z06) is "done" or not. But, with the Stingray production issues and tremendous backlog of Stingray orders, I would think there's not the normal rush to get the Z06 done.
I do think that even if the Z06 was finished, they would NOT start producing them yet. Every Z06 made right now would mean someone that's been waiting for a Stingray for a LONG time gets pushed back. Not a good thing.
I do think that even if the Z06 was finished, they would NOT start producing them yet. Every Z06 made right now would mean someone that's been waiting for a Stingray for a LONG time gets pushed back. Not a good thing.
The hole in your theory is this: a portion of those existing C8 folks are well-healed enough and would happily upgrade them to Z06 ones. Keep that in the back of your mind while cooking up further theories. ;-)
07-05-2021, 03:25 AM
