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Nobody wants to read your bullshit......because you are a moron.
The list and the content thereof is of the courses GM engineers attended involving their pursuit of magnesium manufacturing technology. C6Z subframe, case in point. GM will cast the magnesium subframes in house for the C8Z. Not my bullshit. Your loss for hanging onto archaic misapprehensions. Things are moving ahead despite your attitude.
Certainly something they can use in more expensive models to cut down weight. GM made the rear crash beam out of carbon fiber even on the $60K car, so it's possible.
Personally I'm split on magnesium. My mag wheels cracked without hitting anything on a 1,400 lb car. Went with forged alloy centers and don't really care for the increased mass. Driving on cracked wheels is not something I want to do twice.
However, my favorite speakers have magnesium cones. Simply unbeatable in harmonic distortion and transients.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 08-30-2019 at 06:22 PM.
Mag parts and cf parts are a concern when they burn in both firefighting aspect and health concerns for those near burning cf. Wouldnt be surprised to see new regulations coming out for their use in cars.
Shaka,
i own a C6 Z06 with a mag front cradle. I would have given anything for a mag rear cradle as well. You wax poetic on weight saving but your cantilever shocks add a significant amount of extra weight. Personally, I tend to go with a team of PhD mechanical engineers with limitless FEA computing time over scratchings on a napkin. No disrespect intended but there are dozens of interrelated parameters that dictate the final design. Your shocks add weight that also raises the roll CG and pass through the air intake and really offer no real-world advantage for a consumer street car (which, remember, the Corvette really is).
Shaka,
i own a C6 Z06 with a mag front cradle. I would have given anything for a mag rear cradle as well. You wax poetic on weight saving but your cantilever shocks add a significant amount of extra weight. Personally, I tend to go with a team of PhD mechanical engineers with limitless FEA computing time over scratchings on a napkin. No disrespect intended but there are dozens of interrelated parameters that dictate the final design. Your shocks add weight that also raises the roll CG and pass through the air intake and really offer no real-world advantage for a consumer street car (which, remember, the Corvette really is).
So how many chassis have you designed and built? Did they pass DOT crash tests, including meeting all pertinent high performance chassis criteria also? How about EPA? Why do high performance sports/race cars employ these designs? They are not cantilever either and it not only lowers the CG, it relocates it longitudinally and reduces unsprung weight. What is roll CG? My God. Did you mean no disrespect for yourself? Shameful. People like you make the C8 section suck.
Read this thread carefully from the beginning. You are another pathetic pretender. The C8 chassis is a sub standard design and I will take on any of those engineers. OK, there is no space for golf clubs.
.
Couple of thoughts but I've only hung around a lot of automotive engineers (mostly German):
1. Corvette can't rely on a passenger cell as a structural member as it has an open roof. They seem to be compensating with the central tunnel as well as some significant castings to get that rigidity back.
2. Early rumors suggested they were having issues with twist on higher-horsepower versions.
3. They didn't want to go the "tub" route for rigidity.
So maybe this is the result of compromises and potentially reigning costs in for the target entry market price.
So how many chassis have you designed and built? Did they pass DOT crash tests, including meeting all pertinent high performance chassis criteria also? How about EPA? Why do high performance sports/race cars employ these designs? They are not cantilever either and it not only lowers the CG, it relocates it longitudinally and reduces unsprung weight. What is roll CG? My God. Did you mean no disrespect for yourself? Shameful. People like you make the C8 section suck.
Read this thread carefully from the beginning. You are another pathetic pretender. The C8 chassis is a sub standard design and I will take on any of those engineers. OK, there is no space for golf clubs.
.
How does one mass produce cars with roll frame or tubular construction - one ofs and a handfull yes - 30K no way.
^^^ The Maserati Brothers built sixteen Type 61 Birdcages in 1959/1960. This very ridged chassis was made from ~200 gas welded small tubes (many ~1/2 inch OD.) The frame weighed only 66 lbs! Sterling Moss, who was a driver, said it was a great racecar!
That is an old friend driving his Birdcage at Laguna Seca Vintage Races! Tom had ~40 vintage race cars, the Birdcage was great for that track. His Chrysler Hemi powered 1951 Cunningham C-2R not so much! He'd lead a pack going into the Andretti Hairpin and be last on the straight a short distance after. Recall telling him he needed more modern brake pads but Tom was a purist, re running gear and tires as well as exterior restoration. He wanted to feel what the racers of the day encountered! Unfortunately Tom' life was cut short with an unexpected heath problem not long after that picture was taken.
Questioning why things were done is reasonable but casting aspersions to the engineering teams abilities is not considering what they gifted to the car world.
I am not a fanboy of anything really. This will be my first corvette.
This car is Seriously impressive from a technical aspect, for the money.
The specs are ridiculously ahead of anything else remotely close to the price point.
We can dissect design elements all day long but everyone in mass production comes down to the fundamentals; cost, longevity, vs performance balance.
Listening to the development and engineering team stories on how much time and effort they put into this really gives you a sense for the passion and dedication that went into this. I think that deserves quite a bit of respect.
In my opinion we should be deeply grateful that we live in a time when we have the opportunity to own a seriously bad ***, mid engine, high performance car for $60,000.
^^^
Good points. Being in the welding industry for ~50 years, expected the C8 chassis would be made from many welded structural components like the C7. Looking at what they accomplished is very impressive. May be too subtle for many, but the numerous thin cast gussets that are part of the many castings to stiffen the structure could partly be accomplished by welding parts but would be very expensive.
Sure a complex tube structure like the Maserati brothers “Bird Cage” would work but not viable for a high volume production car. Have to give GM credit for investing in the production method, large machines and tooling to pull this off! As Tadge said in a video, they had to convince corporate to make that very large investment and “learn” the manufacturing technology! Much easier to have a Tier 1 supplier make a less effective frame as is done for most trucks. Or have a heavier, more expensive/unit chassis made in Bowling Green like the C7. Appears to be a great design for a ~$60,000 base cost ME sports car.
Hats off to GM!
SIDEBAR
An interesting note, my 1st visit to the Bowling Green Corvette plant and getting a private tour was after visiting Dana, a Tier 1 supplier of Ford F-150 truck frames in the area at the time. As I recall, they were supplying the C6 Corvette frames, at least those made from aluminum. We supplied Dana over 100 microprocessor based Pulsed MIG Welders for Robots and some semi-automtic welders as well as the MIG welding wire. That is the way most car assembly plants typically operate. Buy the difficult, hard to fabricate parts from others! Tadge said they tried for the C8 frame castings but no one had the capability for making these large high pressure cast parts. They had to invest in the manufacturing technology, machines and tooling themselves.
Sub standard is unfair, but what I really meant is that it is a compromised design. The first year of production is accounted for, so from a business point of view, that's what it is all about. Only a few will use their Vette for race/track days. A long wheel base is great for stability and airflow control but it presents challenging structural design. It's like building a bridge.
When you first start applying your newly learned math and physics skills that you learn during the first two years of engineering school, you begin structural design. Beams. Just Google how to design a beam.
Except for itty bitty little cars, mid engine cars have never been used for daily drivers especially amongst girls. If/when the C8 is successful, it will have opened up a totally new segment of the automobile, like the 70 Monte Carlo did. In this regard, I commend the C8 engineering team.
I spent a fortune modifying my C6 for a single purpose duty. I totally redesigned the rear suspension. The engine and gearbox are at the extremes of the chassis. It wouldn't work had they made it a mid engine like previous Vette (C2 and 3).
My research showed that the C8 subframes would be magnesium castings. I was alarmed to see the final design.
Here you build a long bridge and load it incorrectly with load paths that are just plain wrong. Not only that, they cut a big hole where a critical structural member is omitted.Madness.
Did you know that the Koenigsegg Jesko has a bolt on roof and if you elect to do some spirited driving, you have to bolt the roof on.
My C6Z has a fixed magnesium roof. The total structure is transformed. The high performance C8 roofs must be a bolt on or fixed. Maybe a provision for bolts on the 'clip on' roof. Trust me, it's going to need it.
Current Z06 with roof in place. static chassis flex with roof in place. My idea of a sports car. This is a Vettified Lambo. When the V10 blows up, I'll install a LT2 and a manual 6 speed.
I'm very much in favor of a FE Vette for luxury touring, a properly constructed ME Vette and a SUV Vette. From $60 gs to $200gs.
All of Ferrari's new FE cars are pre sold. There are deposits for their SUV. Corvette must do this. The Corvette name has the same magic as Ferrari.
So how many chassis have you designed and built? Did they pass DOT crash tests, including meeting all pertinent high performance chassis criteria also? How about EPA? Why do high performance sports/race cars employ these designs? They are not cantilever either and it not only lowers the CG, it relocates it longitudinally and reduces unsprung weight. What is roll CG? My God. Did you mean no disrespect for yourself? Shameful. People like you make the C8 section suck.
Read this thread carefully from the beginning. You are another pathetic pretender. The C8 chassis is a sub standard design and I will take on any of those engineers. OK, there is no space for golf clubs.
.
very cool frame design. I hope GM takes the experience they gained and roll out better materials, maybe even more cheap and light panels
the liner for the trunk and frunk is an example of some new "unobtanium" material that is very light.
As GM learns on the race car the base car will get better and lighter. At least the weight of the DCT is right over the rear axle and the new package is lower
Shaka, keep posting, many folks learn alot and are interested
Really horrible and wrong. I was expecting a structure like this where the load path was directed to the bulkhead. I expected this bolt on subframe and engine cradle to be magnesium.
^^^ The Maserati Brothers built sixteen Type 61 Birdcages in 1959/1960. This very ridged chassis was made from ~200 gas welded small tubes (many ~1/2 inch OD.) The frame weighed only 66 lbs! Sterling Moss, who was a driver, said it was a great racecar!
That is an old friend driving his Birdcage at Laguna Seca Vintage Races! Tom had ~40 vintage race cars, the Birdcage was great for that track. His Chrysler Hemi powered 1951 Cunningham C-2R not so much! He'd lead a pack going into the Andretti Hairpin and be last on the straight a short distance after. Recall telling him he needed more modern brake pads but Tom was a purist, re running gear and tires as well as exterior restoration. He wanted to feel what the racers of the day encountered! Unfortunately Tom' life was cut short with an unexpected heath problem not long after that picture was taken.
"Costin often used the Birdcage as a scholastic tool for his apprentices and the exercise was "to pick out the tubes which were wrongly placed, which in fact were legion.""
From Flying on Four Wheels: Frank Costin and his car designs.
08-29-2019, 04:31 PM
The Maserati Brothers built sixteen Type 61 Birdcages in 1959/1960. This very ridged chassis was made from ~200 gas welded small tubes (many ~1/2 inch OD.) The frame weighed only 66 lbs! Sterling Moss, who was a driver, said it was a great racecar!
