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The "nitrogen fill" is the modern day "snake oil". As Barnum once said, "there is a sucker born everyday". LOL. Even at that the track, there is marginal value for the average guy. I run in an endurance series that are typically 14 hours. 7 each day. We run just plain air. The car we run is nit a corvette.
All you need to experience is too moist air just once, even in a sprint race, and you will start running nitrogen in your race tires. I lost a big race once because the air that was put in my tires was so humid that my tire pressures raised 4 psi higher than with dry air. The rear tires lost grip and acceleration out of corners was reduced due to less traction and throttle induced oversteer.....
For street cars it doesn't matter too much. You just want to avoid high moisture content air if you can.
All you need to experience is too moist air just once, even in a sprint race, and you will start running nitrogen in your race tires. I lost a big race once because the air that was put in my tires was so humid that my tire pressures raised 4 psi higher than with dry air. The rear tires lost grip and acceleration out of corners was reduced due to less traction and throttle induced oversteer.....
For street cars it doesn't matter too much. You just want to avoid high moisture content air if you can.
So is moisture the real issue? I would believe that. Would dried air work just as well (or nearly so) as nitrogen? Lots of folks put driers on their home air supply anyway.
I recently purchased a 2023 C8 Z51 HTC. I am preparing to order some new aftermarket wheels and I was just curious is it necessary to go back with nitrogen or would air suffice? The problem is they’re just aren’t many tire shops in Oklahoma City that offer nitrogen and I really hate to take it to the dealership because I know it’ll cost me an arm and a leg.
also, what are you all running as far as tire pressure, it looks like it has 32psi in it but I keep reading that everyone’s running 29 or 30.
Thank you, Bert
It's not compressed air vs nitrogen... it's the humidity that's present in normal compressed air that creates tire pressure issues when tracking your car / nitrogen is dryer than normal air. You can find cheap nitrogen at Costco (other nitrogen tire filling benefits are mentioned on their website). Costco Oklahoma City Warehouse
13200 N WESTERN AVE, OKLAHOMA CITY, OK 73114
That is part of the issue. You aren't supposed to mix nitrogen with standard air. Once you fill with nitrogen, you must always fill with nitrogen.
That is complete nonsense. "Standard" air is already mostly nitrogen and a fill with even more mostly nitrogen followed by a future fill with just mostly nitrogen is of zero concern to a street car.
Cosco in my area charges like $13 to deflate all 4 tires and refill with Nitrogen. They then have free pumps outside that can be used to top off as required
i find on long trips tires do not get as hot and I don't have to add as often
I die laughing everytime I see dealers pushing this as an add-on. I have been looking at a new 2024 GMC 1500 AT4-X and the dealership wanted and extra $199.00 for "Nitrogen". I could not stop laughing at them...
Air is all you need.
My dealer is doing nitrogen for free and I can just pull in without appointment if pressure is low, so it's not a hassle to keep it oxygen and moisture free but still I would not go out of my way to get nitrogen if pressure was low and I was out of town.
Interestingly, it took a couple of months for my tire pressure to stabilize. After I got the car new in May of last year, pressure was dropping under the limit (on all 4 tires but not equally) over a few days/weeks and I went to the dealer 3-4 times to have the pressure restored. Now I have not been there in 3-4 month (since the last oil change) and it has been stable.
I doubt people are using "pure" nitrogen. Like using medical grade Nitrous for racing...
The cold pressure recommendations we have is for air and it's approximate so that once the tires are up to operating temperature the tires have the right pressure in them. Operating temp is the important thing. The difference between cold and operating will be different with air and nitrogen. Probably doesn't matter for most people.
Yep, back in the day when Nitrogen tire fill started it was "Pure Nitrogen" supplied in cylinders or as liquid to a plant. Today most dealers service use a Nirtogen generator. Our local dealer it's on a small battery powered cart. Best they do is ~95% pure. And most only get the air in the tire down to 14.7 psia, (absolute pressure) zero gauge pressure, as they do NOT pull a vacuum.) So they fill to 30 psi (=~45 psia.) There is still 1/3 of the "stuff" I use in the tire! It's a special mix of 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, 0.9% Argon with 0.035% CO2, the next highest gas %! Yep, with all the publicity CO2 gets that is what is in the air we breathe!
SIDEBAR
I was Director of Welding Market Devlopment for Linde, at the time the leader in Industrial Gas production and distribution. My Group dealt only with welding related gases. We were funded mostly by the very high Argon Profits. Because of the very large gas liquefaction plants we owned to deliver oxygen to most steel mills we also produced ~60% of the Argon in North America (it cost ~20% more to put in the two extra Argon distillation columns and chemical processes to make 99.999% pure Argon. Not as justifiable on small gas liquefaction plants.) As Linde we sold our typical gases market share ~30% of the Argon. The remainder was sold at wholesale prices to the few competitors (the Industrial Gas Business is an Oligopoly with few players.) Like today it was always in tight supply. We controlled the very high Argon price.
My counterpart, with ~35 folks in his group handled other applications, tanks like best way to inject oxygen in steel mill applications, efficient burning so you didn't have to heat the Nitrogen, Nitrogen for food freezing etc etc. Nitrogen was always a problem for us. Spend all the money to liquify air (takes lots of electricity) and can't sell the 78% Nitrogen. Some gets wastefully vented. So recall when they were "promoting" replacing air compressors in plants with Nitrogen. We'd deliver the product as a liquid to the plant. It was logical IF the plant used a lot of compressed air AND needed it dry. Big compressors, and expensive dryers. I also recall the efforts with tires. Logical IF you had a large fleet of trucks where tire carcass, which were recapped, and could be used for 200,000+ miles! The reduced oxidation was a benefit. For passenger cars, clean dry air was just fine. Yep, had to reduce the moisture content but that can be done with dryers.
Recall when we formed a leveraged buyout of their welding business, we sponsored Richard Petty Team for >15%. Yep, they brought a large Nitrogen Tank to the race, easier and quicker fill than using an air compressor with dryers!
BTW, rubber is permeable, something I deal with in my part time business. Oxygen and Nitrogen permeate thru an Argon MIG shielding gas hose. In fact, our hose material has ~10 times less moisture permeation as rubber (I quote a tech paper that shows where Natural Rubber has a moisture permeation coefficient of 2290 our hose is less than 275.) Yep the law of partial pressures says that 78% Nitrogen in air will flow thru the hose (with 100% Argon 0% Nitrogen as it enters) into the MIG shielding gas hose and try to equalize the partial pressure!
In fact, even with pure nitrogen in passenger tires, oxygen begins to migrate back into the tire. It does take some time so in a Race Car running for a few hours not an issue. In a passenger the gas inside the tire is trying to be just like the gases outside!
I die laughing everytime I see dealers pushing this as an add-on. I have been looking at a new 2024 GMC 1500 AT4-X and the dealership wanted and extra $199.00 for "Nitrogen". I could not stop laughing at them...
Air is all you need.
Agreed on 70k for 75k denali one year ago but dealer wouldn't waive the $249 for nitrogen.
ok, goodbye.
He called back 10 minutes later.
It's not worth anything.
N2-filled tires are less prone to oxidation and corrosion, they're ideal for longer-term storage. Compared to compressed air, nitrogen is considered a “drier” gas. This is because the lack of water vapor creates more stable pressure within the tire and corrosion (aka “oxidation”) is less likely to build up on your wheel finish or TPMS sensors.
Compressed air can be dried too, if that is what one wants. Many home air compressor systems are equipped with a drier because moisture tends to affect air tools adversely.
^^^^
There is a cheap one some of our customer's used! Takes a roll of toilet paper!
Yep, for Plasma Cutting moisture reduces the life of the expensive hafnium electrode in the Plasma Cutting torch. We supplied a small moisture filter like that one included with my large air compressor in my garage. BUT not really good enough. This one actually works well!
You can use the roll they supply but toilet paper works fine!
N2-filled tires are less prone to oxidation and corrosion, they're ideal for longer-term storage. Compared to compressed air, nitrogen is considered a “drier” gas. This is because the lack of water vapor creates more stable pressure within the tire and corrosion (aka “oxidation”) is less likely to build up on your wheel finish or TPMS sensors.
Today's wheels and TPMS sensors are not harmed by using good clean air at all if ever...
I do have 2 acres of ocean front property in Nebraska that has unlimited free nitrogen I'll sell ya for cheap if you're that into it......
Today's wheels and TPMS sensors are not harmed by using good clean air at all if ever...
I do have 2 acres of ocean front property in Nebraska that has unlimited free nitrogen I'll sell ya for cheap if you're that into it......
I'll swap you prime real estate in Florida.....just have to drain the water and relocate a few gators. Maybe to your ocean front property in Nebraska? Lol......
N2-filled tires are less prone to oxidation and corrosion, they're ideal for longer-term storage. .
That's only true if you can get the tires to 100% nitrogen fill, zero percent oxygen. And the best systems to evacuate tires and refill only get about 95% nitrogen after fill. Any oxygen at all will start the process of oxidation. Even one molecule. If you're tires are on steel rims then the lack of water vapor will be a benefit. Not going to make a lot of difference on alloys.
Interesting about the corrosion of the rims. Anyone ever report that or encounter it? I have a few car with very old steel rims. And I also have a few vintage garden tractors with old steel rims. I can't say I have ever encountered a situation where there was any significant rust or corrosion inside of the rim. Not saying there was 0 rust, but nothing of significance.
That's only true if you can get the tires to 100% nitrogen fill, zero percent oxygen. And the best systems to evacuate tires and refill only get about 95% nitrogen after fill. Any oxygen at all will start the process of oxidation. Even one molecule. If you're tires are on steel rims then the lack of water vapor will be a benefit. Not going to make a lot of difference on alloys.
Well, oxygen is consumed during the oxidation process. So, you won't get much oxidation with one oxygen molecule...
I'll swap you prime real estate in Florida.....just have to drain the water and relocate a few gators. Maybe to your ocean front property in Nebraska? Lol......
The Gators are not a problem, make good eating. BUT what about those Pythons? Found this recipe: In a bowl, dredge the python filet in flour until evenly covered. In a large, oven-safe pan, warm olive oil over medium heat, then add python. Sear python filet on both sides until golden brown, then transfer pan to the preheated oven. Bake for 5 minutes at 350°F.
There is legit research on Nitrogen in street tires, specifically done on Big Rig Trucks and the Nitrogen filled tires proved to last longer.
With that said..... I have nitrogen filled tires and standard. All kinda the same unless you are getting a bajillion miles out of your tires or tracking. But as others have said, Costco has Nitro filling stations that are free so that's usually where I go because it's so humid where I live. It really is the moisture, like others have said, that is the real problem if you aren't heating the tires up on the track. The tires don't like the moisture on the inside and start to disintegrate from the inside out
02-11-2024, 03:53 PM
