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I spent a lot of time and money to redesign and manufacture the parts to convert the Hewland 5 speed transaxle in my DSR from "H" pattern to paddle shifting. This dropped the minimum shift times from 85ms to 17ms.
To me faster shifts are good. So for me paddle shifting in my C8 is an added bonus.
I go back and forth, depending on the road. When the streets are empty, manual, in traffic, DCT. On the freeway DCT. Country roads, manual....
All this brings up an interesting psychological point (interesting to me anyway). ... I had a Miata with paddles. There was also the selector on the tunnel. When the car was in manual mode, you could use either the paddles or the **** on the tunnel... I found that if I rested my hand on the ****, I tended to take the car to higher rpms, as I would with any other manual I've owned, (almost every other car) but if I used the paddles I shifted almost as soon as car wouldn't lug if upshifted. .. Just a mental thing. ..
Another quirk of the Miata was that both paddles could shift up or down, the top being upshift, the bottom being down shift. I knew at the time that most cars are left/down, right/up so I trained myself to do only that... and that habit has paid off with the C8.
There is a trick to DCT shifting (every car is a bit different), and the C8 seems to work best in lower gears with a bit of feathering of the throttle. I sold my 991.2 Targa 4S recently and while the PDK does work a bit better than the C8 in sport plus it will engage with a similar way if you do not get the throttle input correct. There is more to shifting these DCT cars than pulling the paddles, I suggest experimenting with the way you apply the throttle while shifting it might make for a more enjoyable experience. I have owned at least 100 cars with these systems, they all have some issues, not matter what brand they are. I find shifting from 1st gear in the C8 works best if you pull back on the throttle right before you shift. If I try that in the AMG GTS it will not have a smooth transition, both DCT's but very different in the way the DCT works best.
Your comments make a lot of sense. when you’re driving a true manual, you generally lay off the throttle when shifting gears unless you’re at WOT and doing no lift shift. I will try laying off the throttle the next time I drive my C8.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
I use manual mode a good bit, probably 50-60% of the time. It's not the same as the traditional stick and clutch pedal manual, but it is a lot of fun. I've loved every clutch/stick manual car I've owned, but the DCT w/paddles in the C8, to me, is just as much fun. Although it doesn't have the same joy of nailing that perfectly executed shift of a traditional manual, it's perfect every time and lets you focus more on driving. The other big benefit of the DCT of course is you can use it in automatic mode, which is great for driving in town/traffic. I also really appreciate the ability to override while in automatic mode, which makes it fun to downshift when slowing or when you want to pass. One of the unique things I've found with that is that if you override downshift while in automatic mode, it will still automatically upshift.
@hawk02 How many miles are on your car? I'm at 2500 miles, and I honestly don't notice much difference between a full-throttle shift in manual & automatic. Yes, full-throttle shifts are a little harder, but that's what I would expect and want.
Nothing like rowing the gears in a C6-ZR1 for what it’s worth. The DCT will be a whole other ballgame for me. Not sure if I will like it or not. My SRT Jeep has the paddles, I hardly ever use. We will see
I’ve gotten accustomed to manual shifting and now, most of the time, prefer it to automatic mode. It gives a similar experience to driving with a manual trans, only you never use a clutch and the shifts are faster. In many instances, during moderate acceleration, I shift earlier than auto mode would. I wonder if the trans ECU is using any of my manual shifting data for adaptive learning for use in auto mode……
what do you prefer?
I enjoy using manual mode with the paddles, but I disagree it's similar experience to a very good traditional manual transmission. I get a tremendous amount of pleasure working the clutch and shifter, and fortunately, we own two other manual sports cars to play with. I won't give that up as long as manual transmissions are still available.
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (performance mods)
C4 of Year Winner (performance mods) 2019
Originally Posted by blackvetterzo6
Nothing like rowing the gears in a C6-ZR1 for what it’s worth. The DCT will be a whole other ballgame for me. Not sure if I will like it or not. My SRT Jeep has the paddles, I hardly ever use. We will see
I actually went directly from my C6 ZR1 to the C8, again each has its strengths & weaknesses, but overall the C8 was enough better to make me go ahead and sell the ZR1 (didn't need to, but realized I wouldn't be driving the ZR1 enough to be worth keeping it). As to the SRT Jeep, I've got a Trackhawk as well. The DCT in the C8 is very different than the 8-spd auto in the SRT/TH. Unless you're in "Track" mode on the transmission in the Jeep, it's not going to be anywhere near as quick & responsive as the DCT in the C8. Either car will ultimately be faster in auto mode, but the C8 is much more fun in manual than the Jeep (maybe because it's almost a full ton lighter).
Originally Posted by MCMLVII
For those who like to participate in the "act of driving" wait until you try "one pedal driving".
You should try 2-foot driving (right for gas, left for brake), I've actually been starting to train myself to do this in the C8. I do this on my racing sim and am significantly faster, and I know many professional race drivers do this. It's definitely challenging though, as we all have many more years of using the right foot for both gas/brake and have taught ourselves to be much more gradual with it. Even having done 2-foot on sims for a number of years, I'm having a hard time getting the progressiveness down with the left foot and not jabbing it too hard. For whatever reason, all the years of clutch use just don't translate to brake use for the left foot.
There is a trick to DCT shifting (every car is a bit different), and the C8 seems to work best in lower gears with a bit of feathering of the throttle. I sold my 991.2 Targa 4S recently and while the PDK does work a bit better than the C8 in sport plus it will engage with a similar way if you do not get the throttle input correct. There is more to shifting these DCT cars than pulling the paddles, I suggest experimenting with the way you apply the throttle while shifting it might make for a more enjoyable experience. I have owned at least 100 cars with these systems, they all have some issues, not matter what brand they are. I find shifting from 1st gear in the C8 works best if you pull back on the throttle right before you shift. If I try that in the AMG GTS it will not have a smooth transition, both DCT's but very different in the way the DCT works best.
This is another aspect of using the paddles: working the throttle to control how much power you want going into the next gear - up or down. This goes hand in hand with manual shifting, for me, at least. I think I can get the car to shift better than full auto mode.
You should try 2-foot driving (right for gas, left for brake), I've actually been starting to train myself to do this in the C8. I do this on my racing sim and am significantly faster, and I know many professional race drivers do this. It's definitely challenging though, as we all have many more years of using the right foot for both gas/brake and have taught ourselves to be much more gradual with it. Even having done 2-foot on sims for a number of years, I'm having a hard time getting the progressiveness down with the left foot and not jabbing it too hard. For whatever reason, all the years of clutch use just don't translate to brake use for the left foot.
I always use my left foot for braking and have been doing so for probably the past 25 years. My reaction times are much, much faster.
On the highway I just leave it in Auto. The rest of the time, I'm probably in manual 80 - 90% of the time. Aside from being more involving (and being more involved in one's driving is always good), I find that in Sport the DCT generally shifts a lot earlier than I want to (to maximize economy, I assume) and in Track it holds revs a lot longer than is necessary on the street. If I'm on a "spirited" drive, I'm in manual mode always. Auto is always reacting to what just happened, not planning for what's about to happen. Until the car can see ahead and know that a corner is coming, or a long straight is just ahead, or whatever, it can never predict exactly what gear I want. Sometimes it's right, but often it's wrong.
There's a reason Ron Fellows conducts all the classes in manual mode.
I do kind of wish I could have gotten a manual, but the way the DCT fires off shifts makes me miss a manual less. As for left foot braking, since I still drive cars with clutch pedals, I'm going to stick with right foot braking.
I think that's mostly due to the fact that in their owner courses and the circuits they use, they want everyone in either 3rd or 4th gear all the time.
My wife took the course, and she felt like there was too much going on for her to deal with the paddles, so they told her to just leave it in automatic. Needless to say, she campaigned to stay in the "slow group," but she greatly benefited from the training, and thoroughly enjoyed it. That's the way those courses should be conducted.
Every DD I owned prior to the C8 in 62 years was a standard shift. Was concerned about the C8 and would never have purchased if a "slushbox" automatic. Met a fellow who was similar and bought a new Ferrari. Said he always drives using the paddles. So for the 1st month did just that. Drove in our rural area like my C7s. Never past 5th, downshifted for every turn, even going 45 mph in town pulled the downshift paddle twice to 3rd. Leaving the 70-mph highway to a rural road with no shoulder to slow, applied the brakes aggressively and did the same. Took two pulls from 5th instead on my C7s, 5th directly to 3rd. But like those, it re matched each by itself.
BUT I live on a narrow twisty rural road, for the last 1 1/2 miles of the 2 to my home from a 4 lane divided highway woods one side, Lake with homes on the other. When I leave the road from a stop sign have to merge into often heavy traffic going and coming from Myrtle Beach to I95 South. Traffic is usually going ~70-mph on that 60-mph dived highway. Neat that the C8 accelerates faster than my prior 2017 Grand Sport, 2014 Z51, C6, 1993 (also my 1st Vette a 1988 but was living in town when I owned it.) BUT while I'm making that 90-degree turn from a stop sign to merge into the divided highway had an issue pulling the upshift paddle to 2nd. It gets to 3rd at ~34 mph in the blink of an eye and the upshift paddle is out of position. Hit the rev limited several times. No fun with traffic coming up at 70+ mph behind!
Then a member posted why he always drives in Z-Mode Power set to Track. Since I have MRC I set Ride to Sport. I drives just like I was my two C7 standard shifts AND as I was the C8 in manual mode!
And he does not drive as aggressively as I do but his logic is clear. In addition, no longer have to use the downshift paddle. In that 70 mph to 25 mph limit rural road I live on apply the brakes aggressively and it will downshift often 3 gears, rev matching each in the blink of an eye! Been doing that for 2 1/2 years!
If following a truck/slow car on a two-lane road will use the upshift paddle as it won't shift out of 5th until about ~70-mph. I can shift to 6th or 7th. It will stay there until I'm back to aggressive driving or apply the brakes, then back to typically 5th max gear. BTW no V4 although that is so seamless when I use MY Mode (the only other drive mode I use, set to Sport) it will use all 8 gears and V4. BTW I seldom use an Interstate where I would just use My Mode.
I drive in manual mode most of the time. The only time I use "D" is if I am on the highway at a cruise speed, or if I am using launch control - as the computer nails the shift points better than me.
As others have said, it doesn't replace the vibe of driving a manual, but it does add to the engagement over just leaving it in D.
Not going to happen, unfortunately. Virtually every new supercar and hypercar, from the C8 to the Bugatti uses some version of an automatic DCT or SCT. The C8's architecture doesn't even allow for a manual transmission. Just a reality that traditional manual transmissions in production cars are all but obsolete.
Not obsolete AT ALL when talking about enthusiast cars. BMW offers a manual in the M2 and M3. All Porsches except GT3 RS offer manuals (AFTER phasing them out) and the take rate is GREATER for the manuals. Civic Type R, Golf R GR Corolla, ZL1 1LE--ALL manuals. I've driven only manuals since I was 16 (44 now) The ONE time I bought an automatic I immediately regretted it.
If Ferrari offered manuals today, I GUARANTEE they'd sell a bunch. Check the prices on F1 vs manual 360s and 550 Maranellos
Believe me the early paddle shift systems (let's get something straight full auto cars with paddles are not the same thing as DCT transmissions so whatever you know about shifting those cars will not translate to the C8) were terrible and if you did not get the throttle and the shift right you would be bucking from every stop. I taught lots of embarrassed Ferrari owners (from my dealer and a few Egear Lamborghini owners) how to properly drive an F1. DCT's have come a long way but as many of you have experienced, they are not perfect. I've had Cobb tunes on my PDK's and the Open Flash tune on my 458. Both made the manual shifts better, i would imagine tuners might shy away from the DCT in our cars since there are known issues with it (or at least some of them). Remember very few people get into a gearshift car and are perfect the first time or even the 50th time, apply the same to a DCT.
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Originally Posted by d16dcoe45
Not obsolete AT ALL when talking about enthusiast cars. BMW offers a manual in the M2 and M3. All Porsches except GT3 RS offer manuals (AFTER phasing them out) and the take rate is GREATER for the manuals. Civic Type R, Golf R GR Corolla, ZL1 1LE--ALL manuals. I've driven only manuals since I was 16 (44 now) The ONE time I bought an automatic I immediately regretted it.
If Ferrari offered manuals today, I GUARANTEE they'd sell a bunch. Check the prices on F1 vs manual 360s and 550 Maranellos
My exact wording is that manual transmissions are "all but obsolete", which is a true statement no matter how much one wants it not to be true.
As to the bolded in your post above, I have to ask you this...
Why doesn't Ferrari offer manual transmissions today?
Yes, manual transmissions in new cars will probably become obsolete by 2030 or so, when virtually everything becomes "electrified." Because of that, it appears that we are in the midst of a mini-comeback for manuals, with some manufacturers introducing new sporty gasoline cars with manuals. According to JD Power, sales of manual transmissions increased year over year in 2022. I suspect nostalgia will propel additional growth until electric totally takes over, and some manufacturers have seen and seized upon opportunity as a result.
I'm a manual die-hard, I will not purchase a sports car without a manual, and I currently have two (718S and MX-5 ND2). We own a C8 because my wife prefers automatics, and she purchased it. I like it a lot, but it's just not as much fun to take on a spirited, twisty road, fun drive. On the other hand, I recognize the benefits of DCT, and if I were still logging track time, I'd prefer the DCT.
I'll most likely purchase one of the last MY Porsche 911s with a manual as that time draws near, but it just as easily could have been a C8 if one were available.
04-05-2023, 11:26 AM
