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There you go. No "buts". Just stop doing it then right?
Originally Posted by JerryU
^^
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PowerStop says nothing re cold performance. . There are tests defining how that is done. In my PDF I define the SAE specific brake pad temp testing....
And are you aware of the DOT pad rating for the z26 that indicates cold friction? Its a GG and GH depending on application. How about the carbotech 1521? Youll be surprised. You didn't include this important data.
Originally Posted by JerryU
^^
... Those are the colors reached on a blasted steel surface in the heat affected zone of a weld. We’ll accepted temper colors.
Wait you extrapopated welding color temps to brake rotor colors and then made a recommendation that a certain pad should be used based on rotor color???
You realize one has nothing to do with the other right?
The color temp of a rotor getting hotter means it has MORE friction being applied. This is a good thing not a bad thing. ...well when it comes to being able to stop anyways.
Higher friction pads at higher heat levels will be harder on rotors. But that's the cost of being able to stop on the track. You may need more frequent rotor replacements or larger or more efficient rotors.
And brake rotors glow different colors based on the brake pressure and speed. The same car on the track can produce very different brake rotor glow depending on how they are braking that corner.
This has nothing to do with welding. Completely different processes. Friction vs direct heating.
I have been reading Corvette Forum posts having to do with brake pad replacement and brake pad conversion to so-called “low dust” brake pads. Here are my observations:
No matter what you post on this forum, if it has the word “brake pad” in it, there are a couple of forum members who pounce on the OP faster than a Mantis Shrimp and self-righteously declare that “anyone who replaces his/her OEM brake pads with anything but Carbotech is a fool and asking for trouble!”
Supporting data is always the same uploaded images and link to a multi-page PDF, complete with photos of red-hot brake rotors, data copied directly from the Carbotech website as well as endless sad “testimonials” from the forlorn forum members who made the mistake of not buying Carbotechs.
The information provided is “cherry picked” with the intention of discrediting the non-Carbotech pads. Ironically, for street driving the Mantis Shrimp posters leave out important details and give the impression that “Chinese” pads don’t stop until they reach 250F. They do.
Also, some people may not be aware of this, because the ad has only been re-posted OVER 340 times, but there is a supporting vendor who sells Carbotech on Corvette Forum and offers a 5% discount to Forum Members. I have no doubt that many forum members have purchased Carbotech pads from there and are very happy with their decision.
I don’t race my C8 Z51 coupe. I have experience with OEM Z51 pads (Brembo), Carbotech and PowerStop Z26 pads and this is what I can state:
OEM Z51 (Brembo) – These pads provide incredible bite. Coupled with the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S summer only run-flats, the system is assuredly track and street capable. Unfortunately, these pads shed a great deal of black brake dust. Most drivers are okay with this but some find the dust to be cosmetically displeasing. I think this is common knowledge.
Carbotech 1521 – These pads are made in the USA. With the Forum discount the 1521 C8 pads are approximately $496.60 shipped. The pad material is a high performance, proprietary compound that is well suited for performance street driving. Each pad consists of the friction material and the cast steel plate. An axel set consists of 4 pads that are not identical to the OEM pads. Specifically, one pad on each wheel lacks the wear indicator cutout that is found on the OEM pad. This can be disconcerting when installing pads yourself because it calls into question whether or not you ordered the correct part number? A quick call to JR at Carbotech technical support confirms that they are indeed the correct pads and they will go on just fine… I have done this.
With the 1521 pads there are no backing plates, stainless or otherwise like on the OEM and Z26 PowerStops. (I am not an expert on brake technology, so it is conceivable that the presence or absence of a backing plate has zero effect on brake performance. I honestly don’t know). That said, with Carbotech 1521’s you can either install them as-is (suggested by Carbotech) or with great difficulty pry-off the backing plate from your OEM pads and try to re-stick them to the Carbotechs as you do the install. This will leave you with 8 backing plate-less OEM pads that may or may not be re-usable. No new mounting hardware or lubricant is supplied with the pads. The Carbotech 1521 pads perform exactly as advertised. They are low dust and they stop just fine.
PowerStop Z26 – These pads are PowerStop’s top of the line street performance pad. A ceramic matrix compound is used in the manufacture of the pad which is claimed to significantly reduce the amount of dust shed during street driving. A complete set of Z26 pads for the C8 is $144.38. Each axle set includes 4 stainless steel backed pads that are asymmetrical, therefore identical in shape to the OEM pads (wear tabs and wear slots in the correct locations), a packet of lubricant, and a complete set of new pad mounting hardware (pins, Loctite applied Torx bolts, compression & cross springs). Bedding instructions are prominently printed on each box, and when followed (using the OEM rotors) provide a cleanly bedded pad ready to drive. They are low dust and they stop just fine.
A great deal of effort is being expended for the purpose of maligning non-Carbotech products. Why? Other forum posters have observed this and have likewise been suspicious of motivations. I appreciate and understand the concept of vendor support and customer loyalty, but perhaps those who shill so aggressively for Carbotech could at least come up with some new or more empirical test data with 2022 product? Perhaps test them side by side to justify the criticism? I sure hope that Carbotech fly swatter doesn't wear out from all the times it has been used to smack the poor OP who simply posts a question about low-dust pads...
I used Powerstop Z26 pads on my C7 and did have a couple of quality problems. The mas damper rivets came loose allowing the mass dampers to rattle. And the backing shims had shifted during operation. Powerstop sent me replacement pads. Here is a thread I created: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ds-on-z51.html
The replacement pads worked fine for me and I never noticed the cold bite problem others had experienced. But where I live it rarely gets below 30F and live on a long private road with some downhill slopes so perhaps by the time I get to public streets the pads are warm enough to not have cold bite problems (but it doesn't seem like that would put much heat in them).
I have a set of Z26 pads on order. I wanted to wait to see if any C8 owners complained about cold bite and I have seen any complaints so far. Perhaps the eBoost system compensates for that. I wonder if the system monitors pedal pressure/travel vs G force and compensates if it is outside the expected parameters.
You stated that the Z26 pads are identical to shape to the OEM pads, are you referring to C8 pads? I noticed some people had posted that the rear Powerstop pads overlap the coating on the rotor close to the hub.
I used Powerstop Z26 pads on my C7 and did have a couple of quality problems. The mas damper rivets came loose allowing the mass dampers to rattle. And the backing shims had shifted during operation. Powerstop sent me replacement pads. Here is a thread I created: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ds-on-z51.html
The replacement pads worked fine for me and I never noticed the cold bite problem others had experienced. But where I live it rarely gets below 30F and live on a long private road with some downhill slopes so perhaps by the time I get to public streets the pads are warm enough to not have cold bite problems (but it doesn't seem like that would put much heat in them).
I have a set of Z26 pads on order. I wanted to wait to see if any C8 owners complained about cold bite and I have seen any complaints so far. Perhaps the eBoost system compensates for that. I wonder if the system monitors pedal pressure/travel vs G force and compensates if it is outside the expected parameters.
You stated that the Z26 pads are identical to shape to the OEM pads, are you referring to C8 pads? I noticed some people had posted that the rear Powerstop pads overlap the coating on the rotor close to the hub.
It does compensate a bit.
As an example it will maintain stable pedal pressure even when the fluid starts to boil so this is why they have a brake overheat warning. So you don't hit a wall lol.
Its also why in bbw cars i have i use castrol SRF whereas in my non bbw cars i use endless rf650. Endless is factory fill in cup cars and while it doesn't have the all out temp specs of srf its very close and it performs unquestionably better than SRF in COMPRESSIBILITY which means you keep a firm pedal. This is why many people prefer it. But it is a useless attribute inthe bbw sytem so i use SRF in those.
There you go. No "buts". Just stop doing it then right?
And are you aware of the DOT pad rating for the z26 that indicates cold friction? Its a GG and GH depending on application. How about the carbotech 1521? Youll be surprised. You didn't include this important data.
Wait you extrapopated welding color temps to brake rotor colors and then made a recommendation that a certain pad should be used based on rotor color???
You realize one has nothing to do with the other right?
The color temp of a rotor getting hotter means it has MORE friction being applied. This is a good thing not a bad thing. ...well when it comes to being able to stop anyways.
Higher friction pads at higher heat levels will be harder on rotors. But that's the cost of being able to stop on the track. You may need more frequent rotor replacements or larger or more efficient rotors.
And brake rotors glow different colors based on the brake pressure and speed. The same car on the track can produce very different brake rotor glow depending on how they are braking that corner.
This has nothing to do with welding. Completely different processes. Friction vs direct heating.
Hmm, heat steel and the color will be the same welding or caused by friction.
I understand why some who buy $100 pads for their $80,000 car don’t like the higher price of Hawk or Carbotech. Also understand they want to believe a 1500 F capable pads Stop fine with ambient temp pads. They will stop and many won’t see a difference to them. Fine for them as well.
Hmm, heat steel and the color will be the same welding or caused by friction.
And it will tell you absolutely nothing about what pad to use and will correlate with braking speed and pedal pressure just asuch as pad compound so the chart you created is very factually incorrect and misleads folks
and it will tell you absolutely nothing about what pad to use and will correlate with braking speed and pedal pressure just asuch as pad compound so the chart you created is very factually incorrect and misleads folks
Correct. So please stop posting an official looking chart on rotor color that is completely misleading and factually incorrect. Post sae and dot pad rating results.
And do you know the sae and dot pad rating for the z26 and 1521?
^^^
Forgetting all the tech stuff (till pic) for the ~5000 Silent Majority who viewed this Thread (most don’t want to see or deal with it) versus the ~40 Vocal Minority (like you and I ) who posted. Let’s set the record straight.
I bought PowerStop pads for my 2017 C7 Grand Sport for ~$110 from Amazon hoping they would work
I observed poor braking on a common stop for me (certainly not everyone) stopping aggressively with ambient temp pads to enter a narrow rural road from an often heavy traffic going 70 mph on a highway (so folks behind don’t have to slow for me.) I had to pass up that turn several times when there was a car stopped ready to enter that 4 lane divided highway as there is little extra room. The PowerStop pads when at Rm temp did not give confidence they would stop in time. Had never done that with my 2014 Z51 in 3 1/2 years.
Was reminded of my 1st new car bought in 1967 with every HD option including Metallic brakes. Stopped great when hot but terrible when cold. Was fine when racing, as I modified with Plus one wheel performance radials, headers etc. BUT HAD TO BE CAREFUL DRIVING ON THE STREET.
PowerStop were not that bad but not nearly as good as my 2014 Z51 OEM Brembo or Carbotech 1521 pads I changed to after 6 months as the dust was terrible. Had bedded the PowerStop pads per their directions.
And gave them ~900 miles to see if they improved - did not. Tossed them out- not worth the risk to me.
Paid 3+ times more for Carbotech 1521’s. I have no affiliation with any brake pad company or would have not bought the cheap pads to start with. My bad
The Carbotech 1521’s stopped great, better than my C7 Z51. Which I had expected since the GS had bigger tires and 6 piston front brakes. Stopped great cold. Also stopped when as hot as I get them aggressive street driving. Never bypassed that turn I took every time I left the house in the 3 1/2 years I had the GS before getting my C8 Z51.
Did the research for the PDF AFTER to see why I wasted the $110 and my time. RELAYED MY FINDINGS, QUOTED 5 OTHER FORUM MEMBERS, FOLKS CAN DO AS THEY WISH.
Frankly have no idea what you’re hung up with my pics THAT are the temper colors for steel. But if you don’t like that, these pics are from the Net of what brake rotors look like at ~1500 F, which PowerStop quoted their pads capable of and ~2000 F which if you want for endurance racing Carbotech offers. Great cold pad stops occur with Carbotech 1521 “street only” pads that have a MIN TEMP OF 50F and max temp rating of ~900 to 1000 F per their specs. They state not for Tracking.
I used Powerstop Z26 pads on my C7 and did have a couple of quality problems. The mas damper rivets came loose allowing the mass dampers to rattle. And the backing shims had shifted during operation. Powerstop sent me replacement pads. Here is a thread I created: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ds-on-z51.html
The replacement pads worked fine for me and I never noticed the cold bite problem others had experienced. But where I live it rarely gets below 30F and live on a long private road with some downhill slopes so perhaps by the time I get to public streets the pads are warm enough to not have cold bite problems (but it doesn't seem like that would put much heat in them).
I have a set of Z26 pads on order. I wanted to wait to see if any C8 owners complained about cold bite and I have seen any complaints so far. Perhaps the eBoost system compensates for that. I wonder if the system monitors pedal pressure/travel vs G force and compensates if it is outside the expected parameters.
You stated that the Z26 pads are identical to shape to the OEM pads, are you referring to C8 pads? I noticed some people had posted that the rear Powerstop pads overlap the coating on the rotor close to the hub.
Yes, the Z26 PowerStop pads are identical to the C8 OEM pads. I also read the post regarding the pads overlapping the coating on the rear rotor but can't account for that with my 2021 Z51 Coupe. I know that you need to put the retention pins back inside the holes. It is possible to miss this critical step if you are in a hurry. I have attached photos of the product I installed. These pads perform flawlessly for street driving. Note: I'll be happy to throw in a few 2000 degree glowing rotor photos but they are not germane or relevant to this conversation. C8 Z51 part numbers Included Hardware
For the absence of doubt, the above part numbers were the proper fitment to my car.
I can confirm the z26 pads are working outstanding on the c8.
Cold bite pedal feel is managed by the eboost system so as we would expect its just like stock and can be modified through the brake feel settings in the infotainment.
I actually decided to test the cold bite out do8ng a rediculous test by trying them out on their very first braking with zero bedding on a rotor that had been matched to the oem pads previously. No issues at all. Same feel unbedded as they were after 10 stops of 80mph down to 20mph.
I was a bit surprised to find the oem pagid pads are only GF rated which means their friction level will actually DROP when going from 200f to 600f.
The z26 pads are FG rated so they will actually hild up to heat as the temps rise from 200f to 600f. This is a great thing.
I also threw in some girodisc titanium shims while I was already doing the pads and I can confirm there is plenty of room for the roughly .8 to 1mm shims without having to sand down the pads.
I had the Powerstops on my '16 Z51, '18 GS and I put them on my '22 Z51 and I'm happy with them. I can't tell any real difference between the Brembo's and these other than dust! I had to use the Z23's as the Z26 were not available, but the only difference is the rubber coated shim instead of the stainless one on the Z26.....
I had the Powerstops on my '16 Z51, '18 GS and I put them on my '22 Z51 and I'm happy with them. I can't tell any real difference between the Brembo's and these other than dust! I had to use the Z23's as the Z26 were not available, but the only difference is the rubber coated shim instead of the stainless one on the Z26.....
How's the pedal feel with the rubberized shims? Z23's can be had at a fair discounts to the Z26's so they're worthy of consideration.
After doing 25k miles with Powerstop Z26 pads on my C7 Z51, I'll be going the same route with my C8 Z51. I like the idea of Carbotechs since they're made in the USA, but they need to get more realistic with their pricing. Powerstops are dirt cheap from RockAuto (~$60/set) and very well proven on Corvettes at this point.
One thing the note, the only difference between the Z23 & Z26 pads is the shim material (rubberized steel vs. stainless steel).
I would have called you a liar if I didn't hear it direct from powerstop, very interesting info! good stuff brother
05-17-2022, 10:02 AM
