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There is a wait list partly due to people buying the car to solely flip it.
These two statements contradict each other. People buying cars to flip them will continue to elevate the prices by making it harder for people who actually want a car to get one. 42,000 cars were built in 2 years which only met half of the annual demand of almost 40,000 cars a year. So GM is a full year behind building enough cars to meet demand. Without the delays, GM would have delivered 100,000 C8's in the first three model years and now it looks like in the best case scenario if they produce 40,000 cars in 2022 they will still be at least 20,000 cars behind by July of 2022. The other factor is that people actually seeing these cars, drives the demand even higher. I fully expect to sell or trade my car for over msrp with about 12k miles on the the clock when my Z06 arrives in 2023. Keep in mind that base price of a new 2023 C8 and the options prices will be higher as well.
I Think you hit the nail on the head. I am doing the same. Just to give you an example of the demand for this car. The dealer I got my 2020 C8 promised MSRP for any ordered sale and is still making that promise. 3 months after I got my car he was able to get his hands on a used car and was able to sell it for 10,000 over MSRP.
Recently he was able to get two additional used cars and sold them 20,000 over MSRP. One was a 2020 and the other a 2021.
Now I noticed he has two additional used car and selling them for 30,000 over MSRP.. I am anxious to see if they sell as fast as the other two did a few weeks ago.
Should I be upset with the dealer? Hell no it's called supply and demand. Considering his lot of new cars and used is almost empty, he needs to work with what he has. In fact I applaud him for still selling ordered cars at MSRP.
This demand is coming from a combination of sources. They are traditional Corvette owners, younger buyers, Mustang owners such as me, other sports car owners that love the concept. I guarantee if this was just another front engine Corvette even with a great new design you wouldn't be seeing this interest.
This is one time, that will take a few years for history to repeat itself. Even Corvette history. A mid engine car at this price, with great styling is a game changer.
If the timing is right for a Z06 you are going to see them selling for perhaps even more over MSRP. At that point the 2020 and 2021 values will start to dip. Timing is everything.
As a Mustang owner and a C8 owner I might not be typical, but I can say, I would not buy another new Mustang that is not Mid Engine. Chevrolet got it right. They got ahead of Ford on this one. Let's see if Ford can respond in kind, knowing the limitations a front engine performance car has. Love my new C8. Love my older Mustang, but for different reasons.
One day, I can get in my 2012 Boss 302 with the baffles taken out of the stock side exhaust and drive a manual trany, then the next day get in a mid engine rocket that many people haven't ever seen before. Life is good. Real good.
Thanks GM for wanting to take the next step and getting a few Ford buyers in the fold. Now let's get that Z06 humming can't wait to rev up that sound which will be hard to duplicate. You see people buy cars for different reasons. GM will profit from this in the long run and Corvette owners won't have to go out and purchase after market exhaust systems to hear the magic of a flat crank. Can't wait!
Might as well ask what the weather forecast is going to be 6 months from now.
Six months weather forecast is pretty easy these days but going along with the analogy, a weather forecaster has enough data today to reliably forecast that six months from now dealerships will not be begging us to buy a C8 @ MSRP.
Let's say that demand for the C8 is conservatively 35,000 units per year for the first 4 years based on this chart and the unprecedented appeal of the C8. That's 140,000 cars in 4 years. The first 2 years only produced 42,000 cars. There is no way that GM produces 100,000 cars in 2 years to make up the difference. Unless another solid price/appeal competitor to the C8 appears sometime soon you won't see supply outrun demand until the 2025 model year.
I just love all the soothsayers that look at the load of historical data. It's about like Eastman Kodak people saying they have tons of historical data on film sales and digital is a fad. This car is different and the numbers PROVE that, unless you're too bull headed and have blinders the size of barn doors. Fact, all previous generations were just more of the same and GM had very little more than the old Corvette faithful to sell to, they were not conquering any other sports car buyers. GM knew the C7 was lame duck right out of the chute, it's why it had about 15 "special editions" and variations to try and prop up sales. Why didn't GM have a reveal tour for the C6 or the C7, it's because nobody would have come. The C8 tour had thousands of people standing in line at dealerships for hours to see one in person for just for few minutes of time with it. This next one is huge if the blinder boys would just open their eyes. 2 OUT OF 3 C8 BUYERS are new to GM. That takes 2/3 of the build away from the Corvette regulars. So even if they make 50,000 a year, it only leaves 17,000 for the faithful. There are some bitter old crybabies that swore failure without three pedals and they are left standing alone crying and stomping their feet, GM isn't coming back for you. Then there are those that think $60k is too much money for a 2 seat car. Ask yourself how many $60k pickup trucks are sold every day with four doors and a bed so small it can only haul four bags of water softener salt. Message is, they aren't being used as a truck, just a big car. It boils down to making something the buyers WANT, that's why this car is such a homerun, people want it.
I just love all the soothsayers that look at the load of historical data. It's about like Eastman Kodak people saying they have tons of historical data on film sales and digital is a fad. This car is different and the numbers PROVE that, unless you're too bull headed and have blinders the size of barn doors. Fact, all previous generations were just more of the same and GM had very little more than the old Corvette faithful to sell to, they were not conquering any other sports car buyers. GM knew the C7 was lame duck right out of the chute, it's why it had about 15 "special editions" and variations to try and prop up sales. Why didn't GM have a reveal tour for the C6 or the C7, it's because nobody would have come. The C8 tour had thousands of people standing in line at dealerships for hours to see one in person for just for few minutes of time with it. This next one is huge if the blinder boys would just open their eyes. 2 OUT OF 3 C8 BUYERS are new to GM. That takes 2/3 of the build away from the Corvette regulars. So even if they make 50,000 a year, it only leaves 17,000 for the faithful. There are some bitter old crybabies that swore failure without three pedals and they are left standing alone crying and stomping their feet, GM isn't coming back for you. Then there are those that think $60k is too much money for a 2 seat car. Ask yourself how many $60k pickup trucks are sold every day with four doors and a bed so small it can only haul four bags of water softener salt. Message is, they aren't being used as a truck, just a big car. It boils down to making something the buyers WANT, that's why this car is such a homerun, people want it.
I think you've done a very good job capturing the difference between previous Corvette generations and the C8. I don't think it's unfair to say the C7 and it's older brethren attracted those who were interested in "Corvettes" (not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination). The C8 significantly expands the attraction to those attracted to "exotic" supercar styling and performance.
Let's face it if you like performance cars, you've dreamed of lambo's ferrari's, porsches, and any other exotic car since you were a kid. Some even have the means to fulfill those dreams, but for the vast majority, either by choice, or circumstance, they remain a dream, and our "need for speed" is filled with something in a more realistic price range (mustang, challengers, camaros, and yes, even corvettes).
And then GM pulls the curtain up and presents the C8. A car with the styling (yes its subjective) and performance levels of those exotic dream machines, but has a price that's in the range of the typical domestic pickup or suv. That means the typical car person can enjoy most of what the dream machines offer in a financial position that won't potentially be any more of a financial disaster than buying a tahoe. It can be serviced across town just about anywhere, and hopefully you're not waiting months for parts when it does break (pandemic mess not withstanding).
OF COURSE demand is going to be off the charts when you consider what the car represents to not only the typical Corvette buyer, but car enthusiasts in general. And just like those big buck exotics depreciate (well most of them), at some point so will the C8. But I don't think it's going to follow the same pattern as other generations, due to the "super car at a tahoe price" appeal across a very broad customer spectrum. The C5 had a bit of this "magic". I remember in 2001, dealers in southern california were routinely still adding $10K to sticker. But I don't think the C5 is even close to the appeal to so many the C8 brings.
The trick is knowing "when" the magic dust wears off. Given MM's 2022 list is reported over 850 people long right now, it sure doesn't seem like we'll be seeing multiple cars on dealer lots in the near future though.
Given MM's 2022 list is reported over 850 people long right now, it sure doesn't seem like we'll be seeing multiple cars on dealer lots in the near future though.
Can you please explain this last part above? 850 people long...? These are people that reported ordering a 22 to you/CF for the CF production tracking thread?
Last edited by Telepierre; 06-06-2021 at 11:27 AM.
I think you've done a very good job capturing the difference between previous Corvette generations and the C8. I don't think it's unfair to say the C7 and it's older brethren attracted those who were interested in "Corvettes" (not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination). The C8 significantly expands the attraction to those attracted to "exotic" supercar styling and performance.
Let's face it if you like performance cars, you've dreamed of lambo's ferrari's, porsches, and any other exotic car since you were a kid. Some even have the means to fulfill those dreams, but for the vast majority, either by choice, or circumstance, they remain a dream, and our "need for speed" is filled with something in a more realistic price range (mustang, challengers, camaros, and yes, even corvettes).
And then GM pulls the curtain up and presents the C8. A car with the styling (yes its subjective) and performance levels of those exotic dream machines, but has a price that's in the range of the typical domestic pickup or suv. That means the typical car person can enjoy most of what the dream machines offer in a financial position that won't potentially be any more of a financial disaster than buying a tahoe. It can be serviced across town just about anywhere, and hopefully you're not waiting months for parts when it does break (pandemic mess not withstanding).
OF COURSE demand is going to be off the charts when you consider what the car represents to not only the typical Corvette buyer, but car enthusiasts in general. And just like those big buck exotics depreciate (well most of them), at some point so will the C8. But I don't think it's going to follow the same pattern as other generations, due to the "super car at a tahoe price" appeal across a very broad customer spectrum. The C5 had a bit of this "magic". I remember in 2001, dealers in southern california were routinely still adding $10K to sticker. But I don't think the C5 is even close to the appeal to so many the C8 brings.
The trick is knowing "when" the magic dust wears off. Given MM's 2022 list is reported over 850 people long right now, it sure doesn't seem like we'll be seeing multiple cars on dealer lots in the near future though.
Counterpoint:
We do not really know if demand is "off the charts". Production is half of normal. How many Porsche "people" are going to switch? Porsche only sells @ 12k 911's and Boxters. Yes they will get Mustang converts. I switched in 2001 from a Cobra Mustang to a C5 - haven't looked back. They are also getting "flippers" trying to make a quick buck and driving up price. But once production is normalized they are gone. The C8 does attract those who before would not have considered a Corvette (average income of buyers is apparently substantially up), but again I will suggest the C8 is still a 2 seater sports car which by design will limit its ability to be a viable option for most. The amount of "time" it will take to normalize is Solely dependent on production. Sadly which in many ways is presently beyond GM's control.
I disagree. The only reason "demand" is still so high is because of production problems - strike and pandemic. The latter being a 1 in 100 years event that still plagues us. There is a limited market for Corvettes @40k units. Once they have sold that many AND the next variation is out - Z06 or E-Ray demand for the standard Stingray will subside and they will readily be available at MSRP or less.
Agree. The C8 is currently the Next New Thing and going for a premium, but in a few years it no longer will be that and prices will fall. We saw the same thing with C7. There's only a limited market for these cars, and they are competing with nice used Corvettes. I got my C7 in the fourth year of production for $48,513 plus tax and title. And with 0% interest, 0 down on a five year GM loan. We may not see deals that good for C8, but we're not going to see prices above MSRP in the long run.
I'm not throwing rocks at those who want a C8 now and are willing to pay for the privilege, by the way. We all get to make our own choices.
Comments from those who apparently scored low on the Miller Analogies Test aside, there is a limited market for two-seat sports cars at any price. Thus, the demand will be substantially lower than for more practical transportation, and supply will catch up in a post-pandemic world. That paradigm isn't likely to ever change for blatantly obvious reasons. Moreover, the economic laws of supply and demand are not subject to change.
Prior to the C8, a driver of a Corvette was continuously the butt of rude or vulgar jokes...What's the difference between a Corvette driver and a ...? There was a dearth of admiration, and no respect. Derision was common.
No longer. Drive a C8 and 'You're the man!'
Can you please explain this last part above? 850 people long...? These are people that reported ordering a 22 to you/CF for the CF production tracking thread?
In one of the 4 or 5 MM order threads, someone reported their list number being somewhere around 850 earlier this week after the 2021 and 2022 lists were merged. Let me find it...
Originally Posted by C822
Hello everyone!! First time posting, I've been following for a few months now and I decided to put a deposit on a 22 C8 with MM. Deposit was confirmed today and I'm #828.
Well, my memory was off by 22...but the point is still valid.
Counterpoint:
We do not really know if demand is "off the charts". Production is half of normal. How many Porsche "people" are going to switch? Porsche only sells @ 12k 911's and Boxters. Yes they will get Mustang converts. I switched in 2001 from a Cobra Mustang to a C5 - haven't looked back. They are also getting "flippers" trying to make a quick buck and driving up price. But once production is normalized they are gone. The C8 does attract those who before would not have considered a Corvette (average income of buyers is apparently substantially up), but again I will suggest the C8 is still a 2 seater sports car which by design will limit its ability to be a viable option for most. The amount of "time" it will take to normalize is Solely dependent on production. Sadly which in many ways is presently beyond GM's control.
I do not disagree that there is a "limited" market for 2 seat sports cars, or any car for that matter. And that eventually a point of equilibrium will be reached where supply equals demand, and then transition to where supply is greater than immediate demand. Once that point hits, pricing will obviously have to reduce to create demand, and used prices will again depreciate.
The obvious point of difference is the "size" of the demand pool, and thus my belief that the point where supply equals demand will be further to the right than some believe, because the C8 appeals to a larger audience than the previous generations. As a point of reference, MacMulkin's new waiting list is at least 828 people long. In 2021, they only got about 847 allocations. Granted GM is hopefully going to have a full year of production in 2022, so they should probably be in the 1200/year range, but they probably have a 9 month backlog right now, months before production will start. And this is the third year of production. I seem to remember reading that the auto industry uses a 60 day supply of unsold cars as the "balanced" market indicator. Can anyone honestly say that GM will have a 60 day supply of unsold C8's in the near future?
At least from me, I have no argument with the theory that at some point in the future we will see a return to normal sales and depreciation of C8's. (And I'm not going to go into adjusting for the inflation I believe we will have to see at some point) And my opinion that the C8 has a broader appeal than previous generations is worth exactly what you paid for it. Take it or leave it, it's a great conversation topic...
The problem with the predictions that demand for C8 is/will be much greater than previous generations is that there are no reliable data to support that theory. It's based upon feelings, media hype, long interest lists at dealers, and labor strike plus pandemic production delays. A very large percentage of the waiting lists will never place a sold order.
BG will only produce 1/2 of normal 2 year production numbers, best case.
Originally Posted by permitmefour
GMC likely regrets adopting the 'JUST IN TIME' parts inventory system. It has cost them billions in sales.
Dead wrong. Even if GM had wanted to stockpile parts, they still wouldn't have been available. Moreover, using a system other than JIT can cost you billions if you run into parts defects that require design changes. That doesn't even include the costs of warehousing parts.
Prior to the C8, a driver of a Corvette was continuously the butt of rude or vulgar jokes...What's the difference between a Corvette driver and a ...? There was a dearth of admiration, and no respect. Derision was common.
No longer. Drive a C8 and 'You're the man!'
Yes, legends in their own minds....
In time they'll be sitting on dealer lots marked down like every other generation was.
In one of the 4 or 5 MM order threads, someone reported their list number being somewhere around 850 earlier this week after the 2021 and 2022 lists were merged. Let me find it...
Well, my memory was off by 22...but the point is still valid.
Thanks. I still don't understand as I am not questioning sourcing validity but the overall practical meaning of it all. I don't know what "MM" is and what the correlation between the 850 you mentioned and the actual order lists is. I am trying to understand...
Perhaps the market for the C8 is off the charts because it is the first affordable mid engine sports car powered by a V-8 since the Pantera. Manufacturers have probably misjudged the market for a mid engine sports car because of the relative lack of success of the various 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder mid engine cars. This is America. We want our V-8 (or maybe a V-12). Zora has always been right. This car would have been just as successful in the 70's if Zora had won his war with GM management. Furthermore, if GM had produced a mid engine Corvette in the 70's, General Motors would have attained world wide recognition for the excellence of the Corvette. Instead, while popular here, the Corvette has mostly been ignored by the rest of the world. Regardless, the mid engine Corvette is finally here and the world has taken notice.
Last edited by PurpleLion; 06-06-2021 at 03:15 PM.
Dead wrong. My 4 brothers and I deal with 7 dealers, collectively, and each one reports the 'finish the order' rate at 95 %, and several at 100%. In fact, most customers want to pay a deposit up to $5000.00 well before the dealer asks for money.
06-05-2021, 01:16 PM
It's about like Eastman Kodak people saying they have tons of historical data on film sales and digital is a fad. This car is different and the numbers PROVE that, unless you're too bull headed and have blinders the size of barn doors. Fact, all previous generations were just more of the same and GM had very little more than the old Corvette faithful to sell to, they were not conquering any other sports car buyers. GM knew the C7 was lame duck right out of the chute, it's why it had about 15 "special editions" and variations to try and prop up sales. Why didn't GM have a reveal tour for the C6 or the C7, it's because nobody would have come. The C8 tour had thousands of people standing in line at dealerships for hours to see one in person for just for few minutes of time with it. This next one is huge if the blinder boys would just open their eyes. 2 OUT OF 3 C8 BUYERS are new to GM. That takes 2/3 of the build away from the Corvette regulars. So even if they make 50,000 a year, it only leaves 17,000 for the faithful. There are some bitter old crybabies that swore failure without three pedals and they are left standing alone crying and stomping their feet, GM isn't coming back for you. Then there are those that think $60k is too much money for a 2 seat car. Ask yourself how many $60k pickup trucks are sold every day with four doors and a bed so small it can only haul four bags of water softener salt. Message is, they aren't being used as a truck, just a big car. It boils down to making something the buyers WANT, that's why this car is such a homerun, people want it.
