Lightning lap
#1
Lightning lap
Last edited by larryfdx; 02-03-2021 at 09:02 AM.
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02-05-2021, 10:55 AM
I love Lightning Lap comparisons, love VIR and being an analytical I delve way too much into the details, lol. First, here are a few friendly reminders when making comparisons:
1) Year to year comparisons are only "ballpark" comparisons. Weather and track state (how green the track is) potentially change lap times significantly. I mean a 1-2 seconds per lap difference is easily possible if both variables are in play across two different years. As an example, tracks speed up across one weekend in a pro race series as they rubber in. The magazines don't tend to mention this fact but any racing fan will know it.
2) VIR was completely repaved in late 2013 for the 2014 season. The new surface sped up the course quite a bit... so cars like the C7Z51 compared favorably to the C6Z06/Z07 but a lot of that was the new surface being a lot grippier. They widened sections at that point too but two key corners, Nascar and Oak Tree, were widened later, in 2016 I think. That made both those corners faster as you have more room on exit. And both are tricky, particularly Nascar, so it helps the lap time.
3) Car and Driver uses staffers to lap. The guy who sets most of their times is a good driver but not a former pro with lots of race wins like a Randy Pobst or Christian Gebhardt or Andy Pilgrim. What does that mean? A few things I believe: a) he won't get as close to the ultimate potential in each car b) edgy cars will be comparatively tougher to extract more time from vs. stable, confidence building cars like the C8 c) times may get faster year on year as skills develop more than a pro who is coming in highly skilled from the start d) coaching from the manufacturer will help more than coaching to a pro. I think someone like Pobst has gotten good guidance to set faster laps too, but Colwell will be helped more. I mention this because I know Mero has been at Lightning Lap multiple times coaching the staff on how to go faster. He is uniquely suited to do it because he has set lap records at VIR. Mero did this for the ZR1 lap time, as an example, and the lap time fell a lot with more laps under his tutelage. I don't think all manufacturers do this and if they do the coaching is probably more generic than someone like Mero would provide.
The regular ZL1 was slower than the C8. I came "this close" to buying a ZL1 so I had checked out all track day references I could find. I mention it only to say that C&D had a problem with their ZL1 laps at VIR and they stated that without the problems they would have gotten into the 2:48s or even 2:47s. So odds are the ZL1 will beat out the C8 at VIR... which is a horsepower track (despite the Grand West configuration's infield section) with three very fast straights.
I think this is probably true. I also think the C7 GS lap by C&D was perhaps one of the better I've seen from them at extracting the car's potential. The C8 is easier to drive at the limit and they did a great lap with it. But they also did a great lap with the GS. Want proof? Look at what is perhaps the hairiest turn at VIR... the off camber, downhill left after the esses. The C7GS may be the fastest car ever through that turn by them. Faster than the McLaren Senna. They went almost as fast with the 2019 ZR1 but the GS even beat that through that turn. My guess is they were getting some high quality coaching from Jim Mero that day, lol.
It did. I actually think that Porsche is keeping it on regular summer tires so it doesn't match or beat the GT3RS. It would have beaten the 991.2 GT3RS lap time at VIR if it was on Cup 2s or Trofeo Rs. And don't forget the McLaren 720s from a few years ago.... it too ran on a regular summer tire.... not a Cup2/Trofeo R.... and set a blistering lap time.
That was an answer to will the GT4 with PDK be faster... and I think you may be right. However, the PDK has 10% shorter gearing than the GT4 manual so perhaps even Pobst will eke out just a little more speed with it?
Someone else corrected this... the McLaren 765LT was faster. I think the 765LT is outrageously fast with acceleration which helps a ton at VIR due to 3 very fast straights. However, the short gearing and torque make the car edgy. Add in a non pro driver and the fact that they weren't optimizing the 765LT traction control (they describe this error in the article) and that lap time is slower than it ought to be.
As much as I love lap times.... the quality of the handling and the experience has to win out for most of us, doesn't it? I mean, wouldn't most of us prefer a more enjoyable ride to one that is a few seconds faster on a 4 mile track? Most track day drivers can't extract all the performance anyway!
1) Year to year comparisons are only "ballpark" comparisons. Weather and track state (how green the track is) potentially change lap times significantly. I mean a 1-2 seconds per lap difference is easily possible if both variables are in play across two different years. As an example, tracks speed up across one weekend in a pro race series as they rubber in. The magazines don't tend to mention this fact but any racing fan will know it.
2) VIR was completely repaved in late 2013 for the 2014 season. The new surface sped up the course quite a bit... so cars like the C7Z51 compared favorably to the C6Z06/Z07 but a lot of that was the new surface being a lot grippier. They widened sections at that point too but two key corners, Nascar and Oak Tree, were widened later, in 2016 I think. That made both those corners faster as you have more room on exit. And both are tricky, particularly Nascar, so it helps the lap time.
3) Car and Driver uses staffers to lap. The guy who sets most of their times is a good driver but not a former pro with lots of race wins like a Randy Pobst or Christian Gebhardt or Andy Pilgrim. What does that mean? A few things I believe: a) he won't get as close to the ultimate potential in each car b) edgy cars will be comparatively tougher to extract more time from vs. stable, confidence building cars like the C8 c) times may get faster year on year as skills develop more than a pro who is coming in highly skilled from the start d) coaching from the manufacturer will help more than coaching to a pro. I think someone like Pobst has gotten good guidance to set faster laps too, but Colwell will be helped more. I mention this because I know Mero has been at Lightning Lap multiple times coaching the staff on how to go faster. He is uniquely suited to do it because he has set lap records at VIR. Mero did this for the ZR1 lap time, as an example, and the lap time fell a lot with more laps under his tutelage. I don't think all manufacturers do this and if they do the coaching is probably more generic than someone like Mero would provide.
That was an answer to will the GT4 with PDK be faster... and I think you may be right. However, the PDK has 10% shorter gearing than the GT4 manual so perhaps even Pobst will eke out just a little more speed with it?
As much as I love lap times.... the quality of the handling and the experience has to win out for most of us, doesn't it? I mean, wouldn't most of us prefer a more enjoyable ride to one that is a few seconds faster on a 4 mile track? Most track day drivers can't extract all the performance anyway!
#2
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Last edited by BIG Dave; 02-03-2021 at 09:11 AM.
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#3
Race Director
Impressive for a base Corvette... Only the Huracan EVO, GT500, 911 Turbo S and the McLaren 765LT were faster...
Beat the Cayman GT4 and the BMW M8 and a dozen other cars...
Beat the Cayman GT4 and the BMW M8 and a dozen other cars...
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#4
Finally!!
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#5
C8 beat the ZL1 and SS1LE. Very nice run!
#6
#8
Safety Car
On 4s tires..... Not bad.
#9
No it did not. Here is the official lighting lap results from when they started it. It shows that C8 getting beat by a lot by the 2018 ZL1, C7 GS, and C7 Z06. Heck the ZL1 beat it by 4 seconds. You must be looking at the older gen Camaro times. Heck the old FE, manual transmission, leaf spring C7 GS beat it by 2 seconds with less horse power.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
Last edited by Kevin Miller; 02-03-2021 at 11:39 AM.
#10
No it did not. Here is the official lighting lap results from when they started it. It shows that C8 getting beat by a lot by the 2018 ZL1, C7 GS, and C7 Z06. Heck the ZL1 beat it by 4 seconds. You must be looking at the older gen Camaro times. Heck the old FE, manual transmission, leaf spring C7 GS beat it by 2 seconds with less horse power.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/
#11
Safety Car
That's The LSA older ZL1. The new style ZL1 with LT4 are an outstanding car. The LSA are slower in a straight line all the way up than a C8 as well. The LT4 1LE are quite a car. I stand corrected the NON 1LE ZL1 LT4 was also slower.
Last edited by WalterSobchak; 02-03-2021 at 11:51 AM.
#12
I don't see the C8 beating the C7 GS on any road course. It's too good. However, the C8 lap is impressive.
#13
Safety Car
Put Cup 2 on the C8 and I think it's a driver's race. On course like that and there was less than 2 second difference.
#14
Simple mods would definitely wake the C8 up. Waiting to see what some other track rats can do with it with a full racing suspension.
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#16
#17
The C8 allows for more track alignment than the C7 (esp. camber), so it's hard to make those kind of comparisons. I'd love to see time comparisons without track alignments, because I for one (and I'm sure a great many) don't go further than fluid changes and track sets on track days - like what's the point of electronically adjustable suspensions if you still gotta wrench on it before and after a track day!?
While 2:49 is impressive, it's interesting to note that the gap to competitors have widened. When the C7Z51 did this in 2014 it was right there with Ferraris and Porsche 911Turbos, and beating R8V10s. Now, there's a bigger gap.
While 2:49 is impressive, it's interesting to note that the gap to competitors have widened. When the C7Z51 did this in 2014 it was right there with Ferraris and Porsche 911Turbos, and beating R8V10s. Now, there's a bigger gap.
#18
The Consigliere
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I think I'm most impressed with the GT500. That thing is legit. And I don't even like Mustangs that much.
#19
#20
Safety Car
The C8 allows for more track alignment than the C7 (esp. camber), so it's hard to make those kind of comparisons. I'd love to see time comparisons without track alignments, because I for one (and I'm sure a great many) don't go further than fluid changes and track sets on track days - like what's the point of electronically adjustable suspensions if you still gotta wrench on it before and after a track day!?
While 2:49 is impressive, it's interesting to note that the gap to competitors have widened. When the C7Z51 did this in 2014 it was right there with Ferraris and Porsche 911Turbos, and beating R8V10s. Now, there's a bigger gap.
While 2:49 is impressive, it's interesting to note that the gap to competitors have widened. When the C7Z51 did this in 2014 it was right there with Ferraris and Porsche 911Turbos, and beating R8V10s. Now, there's a bigger gap.